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Old 07-28-2013, 09:18 AM   #51
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^ I think you missed the point of Clark's journey in this film if that's how you saw the character.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:18 AM   #52
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Was thinking today about how amazing it would have been if they did the All-Star #9 ending with Bar-El and Lilo but with Zod and Faora. Can't remember the exact words but 'after all we've done, you still offer us kindness Kal?' 'The best of Krypton lives on in you'. Just re-tweak the ending with Zod and Faora laying side by side overcome by sensory overload or whatever, and Superman and Emil Hamilton have made a rudimentary Phantom Zone projector and we end on a much happier uplifting note, that speaks much more to Superman.
Meh. Cheesy. And I have a hard time trying to sympathize with people bent on genocide. Sorry. I hated that part of All Star Superman.

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Ugh. The ending. So bleak. So somber. Makes me so sad. I'm just not sure if Snyder and Goyer get the character. Yeah 'he's had so many iterations in 75 years'. But they really angsted him up. All contact with mankind he has, other than his parents and Lois is cold (the trucker, Clark even saying he's not sure mankind can be trusted). It just doesn't seem right. He loves everyone. I sometimes wish that Superman would just fly through my window and console me about my problems. But I think Cavill's Superman would just hate me. It's like Mark Waid said it's like humanity he likes, but it's people he doesn't. It just seems so wrong.
I loved the ending. I loved that Superman won, but at a great personal cost. I loved that he was faced with the prospect of being alone, but then is embraced and held, comforted by Lois. I love that he has found his purpose, that he knows now what he can do, and that he's chosen a career where he can make a difference not just as Superman, but also as a man. The future is one of hope, of new plans, of new beginnings. I LOVE this ending.

As for whether Cavill's Superman hates humans, pfffffffffffffffft. What nonsense. There is no way that Superman would fight so hard to save those kids on the bus, or the guys on the oil rig, or to betray his own race if he hated people.

Now, Cavill's Superman might not hug you, and he might tell you to buck up, but he would probably tell you that things get better.

But mostly, I've really been catching up on the older comics, the ones I've missed out over the past ten years, and I have to tell you, I am not seeing the Superman you see.

The ONLY Superman who has met up with your expectations is the All Star Superman. Every other iteration of Superman I've seen so far (and I admit, I haven't gotten through all of them), he's been angry, he's done dumb things, he's gotten into arguments, he's been a jerk sometimes. He's beaten people up, nearly lost control of himself, and he's even killed a handful of times.

But, he's also been willing to sacrifice everything for his friends, he saves everyone when he can. He forms bonds with the people he's around, just because he's that good of a guy, even with all his mistakes.

The MOS Superman is no different -- he just had a different path. Cavill's Superman gives us hope not because he did everything perfectly, but because despite the pain, despite the tremendous loss, he is willing to forge ahead, with the idea of creating a better world than the one we live in now.

I'm so sorry you don't like MOS. Maybe you should read the novel. You seem to need more details and so forth, and the novel has them. It might make you feel better.

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Old 07-28-2013, 09:48 AM   #53
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That's a good counterargument Tempest.

I think the best writers of Superman are Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, Elliot S Maggin, Alan Moore, Joe Casey, Paul Dini, and maybe Jeph Loeb (For All Seasons) and even John Byrne. I also think they have produced the most celebrated and influential works on the character.

I also loved Man of Steel for the most part but the last third really felt off for me. I have planned on tracking down the novelization, for more details regarding the plot. Hopefully it turns me around on it like you say.

I can't help how I feel though. And Superman's character just felt off for me. Like I just didn't see it. Cavill captured his powerful presence, but I just didn't see the warmth (save for when he meets back with his mother, and in the interrogation room with Lois). It's definitely hard not to feel disappointed with MOS, only cause I was expecting so much more.

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Old 07-28-2013, 09:53 AM   #54
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You sounded much more receptive to MOS after you first saw it. I guess the enthusiasm wore off and the flaws became more apparent in your eyes.

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Old 07-28-2013, 09:58 AM   #55
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You sounded much more receptive to MOS after you first saw it. I guess the enthusiasm wore off and the flaws became more apparent in your eyes.
Yeah, I think the extra 2 weeks wait was a blessing in disguise. The rotten rating, and mixed reaction on the Hype, really made me brace for the worst. So I was thankfully relieved and happy there was so much I loved about it. I think after my 3rd viewing I really separated what I loved and didn't.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:00 AM   #56
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I think at this point it's best to wait 6 months or so before watching it again. The film's positive and negative attributes will settle in and you may be able to make a final assessment on how you view the film.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:05 AM   #57
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I think at this point it's best to wait 6 months or so before watching it again. The film's positive and negative attributes will settle in and you may be able to make a final assessment on how you view the film.
Is waiting for the Blu-Ray release long enough?

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:09 AM   #58
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No. You must wait longer. I refuse to allow you to watch the Blu-Ray DVD.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:10 AM   #59
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I honestly think that whatever relevance Rotten Tomatoes might've once had has dissipated considerably. When the EDITOR of the site is questioning a movie's critical rating, you know something has broken down.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:13 AM   #60
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No. You must wait longer. I refuse to allow you to watch the Blu-Ray DVD.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:14 AM   #61
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Good one. Lol.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:37 AM   #62
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I honestly think that whatever relevance Rotten Tomatoes might've once had has dissipated considerably. When the EDITOR of the site is questioning a movie's critical rating, you know something has broken down.
World War Z has an average rating of 6.2/10 and is fresh with 67%
The Wolverine has an average rating of 6.3/10 and is fresh with 67%

Man of Steel has an average rating of 6.2/10 and is rotten with 56%

Just to illustrate

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:52 AM   #63
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^ Thank you for furthering my point. RT has lost its relevance as a barometer for the quality of any given movie, which is why I say it's best to just go see a movie you think might be interesting and form your own opinions. It's what I do.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:06 PM   #64
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pa

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Originally Posted by Smallville13 View Post
Was thinking today about how amazing it would have been if they did the All-Star #9 ending with Bar-El and Lilo but with Zod and Faora. Can't remember the exact words but 'after all we've done, you still offer us kindness Kal?' 'The best of Krypton lives on in you'. Just re-tweak the ending with Zod and Faora laying side by side overcome by sensory overload or whatever, and Superman and Emil Hamilton have made a rudimentary Phantom Zone projector and we end on a much happier uplifting note, that speaks much more to Superman.

Ugh. The ending. So bleak. So somber. Makes me so sad. I'm just not sure if Snyder and Goyer get the character. Yeah 'he's had so many iterations in 75 years'. But they really angsted him up. All contact with mankind he has, other than his parents and Lois is cold (the trucker, Clark even saying he's not sure mankind can be trusted). It just doesn't seem right. He loves everyone. I sometimes wish that Superman would just fly through my window and console me about my problems. But I think Cavill's Superman would just hate me. It's like Mark Waid said it's like humanity he likes, but it's people he doesn't. It just seems so wrong.
Preconceptions spanning popular but not all of the incarnations of the character will do that.

For example if all you've ever read of the character was Earth one, things might seem different, infact that story also had no Clark DP till the end.
The problem is, if films are made for people with different preconceptions in mind(and everyone has a different one trust me), then they will never be received properly. All we can do is judge it for what it is.

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Old 07-28-2013, 12:13 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlawlessVictory View Post
World War Z has an average rating of 6.2/10 and is fresh with 67%
The Wolverine has an average rating of 6.3/10 and is fresh with 67%

Man of Steel has an average rating of 6.2/10 and is rotten with 56%

Just to illustrate
RT audience ratings further illustrate the point.
Just seems like MOS got the short end of the stick this time out. Wonder why though.

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Old 07-28-2013, 12:30 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
RT audience ratings further illustrate the point.
Just seems like MOS got the short end of the stick this time out. Wonder why though.
I think we know why. Superman is supposed to be perfect. Every choice and every action he makes is supposed to be perfect. The expectations for the character and thus the movie can be absolutely ridiculous.

I caught Pacific Rim for the first time last night. Massive amounts of destruction caused by the robots fighting the monsters. But I understood the situation, these robots are trying to stop these monsters and collateral damage is to be expected.

However when Superman tries stopping Zod and there is collateral damage as a result, then Superman gets absolutely roasted for it. Sigh.

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Old 07-28-2013, 01:05 PM   #67
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I never understood why Superman gets the blame...destruction and death happen in almost every other Superhero movie and none of the blame is put on the hero.
No one blames The X-men for the deaths caused by Magneto in the films.
No one blames Batman for everything that happened in Gotham since he came along.
No one blames Spider-man for everything that happened in his movies (other than JJJ).
No one blamed any of the Avengers and their side movies for death and destruction.

So why are we now blaming Superman?

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Old 07-28-2013, 01:10 PM   #68
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^Again, he is supposed to be perfect. Not one person is allowed to die under his watch. These standards exist for Superman only. Every other hero has free reign.

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Old 07-28-2013, 03:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
RT audience ratings further illustrate the point.
Just seems like MOS got the short end of the stick this time out. Wonder why though.
Its a Zack Snyder film

Its a big departure from the very light hearted Donner/Singer films

It depicts much more accurately Superman's power and that of his enemies

Im sure you've noticed by now all these criticisms are in many ways unfair because none of them are truly bad in their own right. Zack Snyder is now the punching bag for people who want to hate on CGI and supposed lack of character development now that George Lucas is out of film. This is the first real reboot of Superman on the big screen in 35 years. In that time period Batman got rebooted twice before Nolan's Batman, which eased the transition.

Also Snyder showed Superman and his power in this film without apology. Im guessing people not use to seeing Superman fight in the comics or in the animated series arent use to buildings being destroyed and him flying through walls. For some, like myself, it was awesome seeing that in live action. For most critics who never read comics or watched the animated series, it was just Zach Snyder going off on CGI again and being over the top.

Critics can be the biggest hypocrites. They love the realistic and gory violence in Kick Ass, Quentin Tarantino films, etc, but they cant stand Man of Steel. I was watching Kick Ass the other night which had a 12 year old girl brutally and repetitively murder dozens of men , but the Man of Steel fights are too long and too violent? And Kick Ass is 76% at rotten tomatoes?

In the end most fans and Warner Brothers liked what they saw. They're now entrusting Snyder with the two biggest super heroes in the world, Superman and Batman. The critics can continue to love 'talkies' for all I care. I'll continue to love a good movie as long as its a good movie.

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Old 07-28-2013, 03:39 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by roach View Post
I never understood why Superman gets the blame...destruction and death happen in almost every other Superhero movie and none of the blame is put on the hero.
No one blames The X-men for the deaths caused by Magneto in the films.
No one blames Batman for everything that happened in Gotham since he came along.
No one blames Spider-man for everything that happened in his movies (other than JJJ).
No one blamed any of the Avengers and their side movies for death and destruction.

So why are we now blaming Superman?
I agree. Actually, Superman's collateral is much more understandable. It wasn't like he was just going about willy nilly. It's kind of hard to remove Zod from the playing field if he doesn't want to be removed.

I think this kind of criticism is more justifiable towards Batman in Batman Begins. Batman, "I won't kill this man who is a murderer! I'll just blow up this entire building instead to escape! Killing dozens of ninjas in the process!" Or his police chase scene, were he employs tactics to evade the police that are so extreme it's laughable when we hear a report saying nobody was killed.

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Old 07-28-2013, 04:54 PM   #71
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I still think if people look at the Zod/Superman fight alone, many would have an entirely different opinion of the Zod/Superman fight alone lol.
Sad but true.

It was an odd plotting to have the fight happen after the doomsday device was turned off, not even the Goyer pitched batman films did it that way. On top of the many preconceptions that may have clouded audience reception people just aren't used to digesting such a thing in such a way, so it leads to half these people mixing up scenes in their minds which leads to statements such as, "Superman brought down an entire city just to win a fight...no ****s given" In reality, it's hard to remember superman directly casing damage to a single building under his own power(though there was that double punch into the side of the building).

In a movie where people talk about fight's going on and on, to have a fight start after the dust had settled probably wasn't the wisest choice.

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Old 07-28-2013, 07:43 PM   #72
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Considering how many people don't even seem to realize that 99.5% of the damage was caused by Zod's gravity beam, while Superman was on the other side of the planet, I question whether they were even really paying attention at all.

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Old 07-28-2013, 08:00 PM   #73
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I still think if people look at the Zod/Superman fight alone, many would have an entirely different opinion of the Zod/Superman fight alone lol.
Sad but true.

It was an odd plotting to have the fight happen after the doomsday device was turned off, not even the Goyer pitched batman films did it that way. On top of the many preconceptions that may have clouded audience reception people just aren't used to digesting such a thing in such a way, so it leads to half these people mixing up scenes in their minds which leads to statements such as, "Superman brought down an entire city just to win a fight...no ****s given" In reality, it's hard to remember superman directly casing damage to a single building under his own power(though there was that double punch into the side of the building).

In a movie where people talk about fight's going on and on, to have a fight start after the dust had settled probably wasn't the wisest choice.
On this point, I would disagree. You-think-the-danger-has-passed-hahahahaha-nope-you're-wrong! trope has been around for forever. Did anyone not seriously see the big fight between Superman and Zod coming? They HAD to have the heroic stand-off. It's the classic cliche.

On that point, I don't know if this has been posted before, so my apologies if you've all seen it, but I popped onto tvtropes.org (despite the nonsense happening on there), and pulled up the tropes for MOS.

Er, obviously there are spoilers and so forth. Read, and enjoy!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/ManOfSteel

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:14 PM   #74
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I think at this point it's best to wait 6 months or so before watching it again. The film's positive and negative attributes will settle in and you may be able to make a final assessment on how you view the film.
I did that with The Amazing Spider-Man. Didn't care too much for it after watching it when it came out. Got it for Christmas and thought it was much better the second time around.

I'm hoping to do the same with Man Of Steel.

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Old 07-29-2013, 04:10 AM   #75
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Grant Morrison on Man of steel:

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I kinda liked it and kinda didn't, to be honest. I feel bad because I like (director) Zack Snyder and (writer) David Goyer, and (star) Henry Cavill was really good. But it felt like one of those ones where it's like, "Bring on the second movie now that you've done this," and I don't need to see that as someone who knows all I know about Superman. For me, it was a bit "seen it before," no matter how they tried to make it a little bit different. I'm more looking forward to the Dark Knight version of Superman, the next one, where hopefully it will have Lex Luthor and be some fantastic second act.It's a credible Superman for now. But I'm not sure about the killing thing. I don't want to sound like some fuddy-duddy Silver Age apologist but I've noticed a lot recently of people saying Batman should kill the Joker and, yeah, Superman should kill, he should make the tough moral decisions we all have to make every day. I don't know about you, but the last moral decision I made didn't have anything to do with killing people. And I don't think many of us ever have to make the decision whether or not to kill. In fact, the more you think about it, unless you're in one of the Armed Forces, killing is illegal and immoral. Why would we want our superheroes to do that?
There is a certain demand for it, but I just keep wondering why people insist that this is the sort of thing we'd all do if we were in Superman's place and had to make the tough decision and we'd kill Zod. Would we? Very few of us have ever killed anything. What is this weird bloodlust in watching our superheroes kill the villains?

Word.




Source - http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2...woman/2586739/

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