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Old 07-29-2013, 03:13 PM   #201
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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Maybe Cap 2 has no actual villain. The cast and crew keep putting emphasis on the fact that "nothing is black or white" so maybe there isn't a villain and TWS, Crossbones and possibly Aleksander Pierce are antagonists.
SOMEONE has to be leading WS and his crew

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Old 07-29-2013, 03:31 PM   #202
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

there is definitely a villain and they're being partially misleading with the black and white thing.

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Old 07-29-2013, 03:46 PM   #203
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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there is definitely a villain and they're being partially misleading with the black and white thing.
How?

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SOMEONE has to be leading WS and his crew
Might not be a villain. I'm just speculating anyway.

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But Captain America: The Winter Soldier wins. Everything. My first born son, even. It's the unicorn of the MCU.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:09 PM   #204
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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How?



Might not be a villain. I'm just speculating anyway.
ehhh then who is it?

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Old 07-29-2013, 04:20 PM   #205
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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ehhh then who is it?
I'm just differentiating between a villain and an antagonist (even if you don't see a difference). Because people are speculating that Robert Redford is somebody from the comics like RS or Lukin or Zemo. I suggested that maybe he's just Aleksander Pierce and he uses his power for morally ambiguous purposes (which may involve TWS). He doesn't necessarily have to be a supervillain.

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But Captain America: The Winter Soldier wins. Everything. My first born son, even. It's the unicorn of the MCU.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:28 PM   #206
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

I wasn't making that distinction, but with that distinction in mind I agree that it's a possibility..

He could create TWS to meet some end he will try and justify

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Old 07-30-2013, 02:25 PM   #207
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

He's the red skull!!


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Old 07-30-2013, 06:08 PM   #208
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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I'm just differentiating between a villain and an antagonist (even if you don't see a difference). Because people are speculating that Robert Redford is somebody from the comics like RS or Lukin or Zemo. I suggested that maybe he's just Aleksander Pierce and he uses his power for morally ambiguous purposes (which may involve TWS). He doesn't necessarily have to be a supervillain.
IA that Redford could be an antagonist as opposed to a villain.

But I also think there is going to be a villain, RR or not. Not having a tangible villain is way too risky, especially for a superhero movie. I think Marvel will play this safe and give us someone concrete to root against, although hopefully we'll get some twists along the way.

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Old 07-30-2013, 06:18 PM   #209
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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IA that Redford could be an antagonist as opposed to a villain.

But I also think there is going to be a villain, RR or not. Not having a tangible villain is way too risky, especially for a superhero movie. I think Marvel will play this safe and give us someone concrete to root against, although hopefully we'll get some twists along the way.
So? People always complain that Marvel plays it too safe. Plus I'm afraid the movie may be too bloated.

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But Captain America: The Winter Soldier wins. Everything. My first born son, even. It's the unicorn of the MCU.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:29 PM   #210
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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So? People always complain that Marvel plays it too safe. Plus I'm afraid the movie may be too bloated.
Well, that's my point. They do play it safe. It's served them well so far. I don't think they're going to change that.

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Old 07-30-2013, 07:33 PM   #211
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Well, that's my point. They do play it safe. It's served them well so far. I don't think they're going to change that.
IM3 didn't, and it didn't affect the box office.

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But Captain America: The Winter Soldier wins. Everything. My first born son, even. It's the unicorn of the MCU.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:37 PM   #212
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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I'm just differentiating between a villain and an antagonist (even if you don't see a difference). Because people are speculating that Robert Redford is somebody from the comics like RS or Lukin or Zemo. I suggested that maybe he's just Aleksander Pierce and he uses his power for morally ambiguous purposes (which may involve TWS). He doesn't necessarily have to be a supervillain.

For that to work, Pierce would've had to have been involved in the recovery of Bucky's body in 1945.

Whoever "made" Winter Soldier made him, or at least started making him, immediately after his apparent death in the train attack. Unlike Cap, Bucky didn't have the luxury of laying around like a Capsicle waiting for somebody to thaw him out.

And again, that points to the most likely suspect(s) being HYDRA, since Bucky went down behind enemy lines in HYDRA territory. Plus, they were the ones who had been experimenting on him a few years prior.

Winter Soldier is HYDRA's toy.

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Old 07-30-2013, 11:57 PM   #213
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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Well, that's my point. They do play it safe. It's served them well so far. I don't think they're going to change that.
IM3 didn't, and it didn't affect the box office.
A fair point. I don't discount the possibility of a less tangible villain. I just think it's a lot less likely. On that point we may just have to agree to disagree.
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And again, that points to the most likely suspect(s) being HYDRA, since Bucky went down behind enemy lines in HYDRA territory. Plus, they were the ones who had been experimenting on him a few years prior.

Winter Soldier is HYDRA's toy.
Much as I would like to see a Russian angle, these are very good points.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:14 AM   #214
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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A fair point. I don't discount the possibility of a less tangible villain. I just think it's a lot less likely. On that point we may just have to agree to disagree.

Much as I would like to see a Russian angle, these are very good points.
Well, even with HYDRA pulling Bucky's strings, I still wouldn't rule out a Soviet connection. After WWII, any remnants of HYDRA would've needed a new fascist nation in which to flourish, and Stalin/Khruschev's Russia seems a suitable place for them to regroup. Plus, WS still has that red star on his arm.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:34 AM   #215
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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Well, even with HYDRA pulling Bucky's strings, I still wouldn't rule out a Soviet connection. After WWII, any remnants of HYDRA would've needed a new fascist nation in which to flourish, and Stalin/Khruschev's Russia seems a suitable place for them to regroup. Plus, WS still has that red star on his arm.
I've been wondering that too. HYDRA may have done the initial work, but a lot can happen in 60+ years of political upheaval. I wonder if it might have fragmented and/or shifted it's alliances.

Plus, even in the comics, Luskin was selling off the goodies in his Soviet cache that he inherited (IIRC Red Skull wanted to buy WS but Lukin's pricetag was too high), so I think it's possible WS has been passed around.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:46 AM   #216
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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For that to work, Pierce would've had to have been involved in the recovery of Bucky's body in 1945.

Whoever "made" Winter Soldier made him, or at least started making him, immediately after his apparent death in the train attack. Unlike Cap, Bucky didn't have the luxury of laying around like a Capsicle waiting for somebody to thaw him out.

And again, that points to the most likely suspect(s) being HYDRA, since Bucky went down behind enemy lines in HYDRA territory. Plus, they were the ones who had been experimenting on him a few years prior.

Winter Soldier is HYDRA's toy.
one answer only....arnim zola

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:49 AM   #217
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I kind of hope that Redford's character isn't the Red Skull in some format since I want Steve to have other major villains to contend with that isn't the Red skull.

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Old 07-31-2013, 02:38 AM   #218
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one answer only....arnim zola
Movie!Zola doesn't strike me as ambitious enough to be masterminding anything.

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Old 07-31-2013, 03:31 AM   #219
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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one answer only....arnim zola
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Movie!Zola doesn't strike me as ambitious enough to be masterminding anything.
Consider this about Zola: Not only was he the person conducting experiments on Bucky in that Hydra base, he was also on the train when Bucky fell so he knew exactly where to find the soldier. We have to assume that Zola somehow either escaped Allied custody after the war or was released and then hooked up with fragments of HYDRA and recovered Bucky. Perhaps Zola was able to communicate with his HYDRA contacts even while he was in custody and had Bucky hidden away until he could get out. Then he could have taken control of the Winter Soldier and done whatever he wanted with him.

As far as Pierce is concerned, I'm willing to bet that he's either a HYDRA commander or Soviet agent who infiltrated SHIELD years ago, possibly by killing the real Pierce and taking his place.

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Old 07-31-2013, 05:57 AM   #220
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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IM3 didn't, and it didn't affect the box office.
Killian was most certainly a tangible villain. He wasn't some misunderstood guy.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:14 AM   #221
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Default Re: Robert Redford offically joins Cap:TWS

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Consider this about Zola: Not only was he the person conducting experiments on Bucky in that Hydra base, he was also on the train when Bucky fell so he knew exactly where to find the soldier. We have to assume that Zola somehow either escaped Allied custody after the war or was released and then hooked up with fragments of HYDRA and recovered Bucky. Perhaps Zola was able to communicate with his HYDRA contacts even while he was in custody and had Bucky hidden away until he could get out. Then he could have taken control of the Winter Soldier and done whatever he wanted with him.

As far as Pierce is concerned, I'm willing to bet that he's either a HYDRA commander or Soviet agent who infiltrated SHIELD years ago, possibly by killing the real Pierce and taking his place.
Bingo! We have a winner.

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:47 AM   #222
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Killian was most certainly a tangible villain. He wasn't some misunderstood guy.
I was talking about "playing it safe" - IM3 did not play it safe.

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But Captain America: The Winter Soldier wins. Everything. My first born son, even. It's the unicorn of the MCU.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:59 AM   #223
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Zola didn't look like someone who takes the initiative. If the Winter Soldier is indeed his work, it's probably because someone else (either HYDRA remnants or the Soviets) ordered him to do it.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:10 AM   #224
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I was talking about "playing it safe" - IM3 did not play it safe.

gotcha

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:10 AM   #225
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Zola didn't look like someone who takes the initiative. If the Winter Soldier is indeed his work, it's probably because someone else (either HYDRA remnants or the Soviets) ordered him to do it.
Granted, WWII-era Zola looked like just a flunky for Red Skull. But a lot happens to him by the end of that movie, and undoubtedly, a lot happens to him in the years leading up to present day. He's probably got motivation now to change.

The way I look at it is that Arnim Zola was a mad genius before WWII, and Red Skull bullied him into being his *****. Zola dutifully mass-produced a whole arsenal of extremely advanced weaponry for him until his capture by the SSR. Now that Skull is gone, and assuming Zola escapes/defects or whatever from the US, he's now free to be the mad scientist he always wanted to be.

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