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Old 07-31-2013, 09:49 PM   #151
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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Outside of Sabretooth, I'd say they could just ignore ORIGINS all together.
So? Just because they could ignore Origins: Wolverine doesn't mean that they are, and we already know from The Wolverine - and from statements from Singer himself - that they're not.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:50 PM   #152
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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So? Just because they could ignore Origins: Wolverine doesn't mean that they are, and we already know from The Wolverine - and from statements from Singer himself - that they're not.
Singer stated that things were going to change in the timeline, and that things would be left out.

So yeah, hopefully most of that is directed at Origins and X3.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:56 PM   #153
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

There is no way in hell that they will invalidate The Last Stand after The Wolverine directly referenced it.

Anyone expecting otherwise needs to stop deluding themselves.

Singer has said that there will be continuity maintained, but that he's also going to be making some changes.

This means 'altered timeline', not 'alternate timeline', so, no, Origins: Wolverine and The Last Stand aren't going to be excised from having occurred even if you think that they ought to be.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:59 PM   #154
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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There is no way in hell that they will invalidate The Last Stand after The Wolverine directly referenced it.

Anyone expecting otherwise needs to stop deluding themselves.

Singer has said that there will be continuity maintained, but that he's also going to be making some changes.

This means 'altered timeline', not 'alternate timeline', so, no, Origins: Wolverine and The Last Stand aren't going to be excised from having occurred even if you think that they ought to be.
All The Wolverine referenced is that Wolverine killed Jean because she was hurting people, they could easily change tons of the events that happened in X3 and still keep that moment. Though it's a moot point really, since The Wolverine takes place before DOFP and is subject to change as well.

Now, do I think they'll do a Star Trek and create and Alternate timeline? No, probably not, but how much they'll change is up to anybody's guess. They could change a ton.

Heck, the continuity of the movies is going to be completely thrown off simply because Wolverine meets Xviaver and some of the X-men in the 70's. That completely changes how events in X1 would roll out, not to mention other smaller changes, such as Beast not knowing Logan in X3.

Point being, things are going to change. This movie basically gives them free reign to change as much as they want. And there are a lot of things that they should change.

There's no way to know how much they're going to change, but they are going to be changing things, which I only see as a good thing.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:03 PM   #155
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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There are a lot of things that they should change.
Correction: You think there are a lot of things that they should change.

That doesn't mean that you're right... or that they're actually going to do what you think they should.

When I look at what Singer has said concerning this movie, and what they just did with The Wolverine, there is nothing whatsoever that points to them actually intending to do any of the things that you and others think they're going to do or that they ought to do.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:07 PM   #156
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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Correction: You think there are a lot of things that they should change.

That doesn't mean that you're right... or that they're actually going to do what you think they should.

When I look at what Singer has said concerning this movie, and what they just did with The Wolverine, there is nothing whatsoever that points to them actually intending to do any of the things that you and others think they're going to do or that they ought to do.
You're right, it is what I think they should do, which I think is usually self inferred because I'm saying it. Now, a good number of people happen to agree with me, but it's fine if you liked X3 and Origins. X3 really isn't as bad of a film as some would make it out to be, but I would, down the road, like to see a proper Phoenix saga, and Cyclops and Storm used to their potential on film.

DOFP has the ability to allow that. Not only that, I do think Singer is going to do something that will allow Fox the option to use both the FC cast AND the OT cast, simply for movie making options. That would mean a certain amount of retconning involving the events of X3 because a number of the OT cast...died.

It's obviously that a good portion of the OT timeline is going to be changed, simply by the fact that Wolverine is the time-traveler. That throws off the plot of X1 almost completely. So I don't think we can try and pretend that the changes after DOFP are small. But you are right, I don't think they'll completely ignore the past films either.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:11 PM   #157
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

They reference Origins in The Wolverine. Logan hears Kayla's name and possibly voice.

Whether they "change" things, everything that has happened has happened. Origins, First Class, Last Stand, The Wolverine, X-Men and X2.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:20 PM   #158
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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They reference Origins in The Wolverine. Logan hears Kayla's name and possibly voice.

Whether they "change" things, everything that has happened has happened. Origins, First Class, Last Stand, The Wolverine, X-Men and X2.
As of The Wolverine, yes, everything that has happened, happened.

DOFP, however, is another matter entirely.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:38 PM   #159
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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As of The Wolverine, yes, everything that has happened, happened.

DOFP, however, is another matter entirely.
No it isn't. Even if they changed it, it is still there. Still on home video, still happened. Even if they play with the timeline, like in comics, what has happened has happened. Even if you make Jean a man, she was still a female in X2.

The only way you can alter a timeline, is by having a timeline in the first place. Just look at Back to the Future. It all still happened.

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:33 AM   #160
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

I wish I could get a memory wipe so I can forget Origins even existed

But I suppose its cool they are at least trying to maintain continuity with the films even the lesser one's.

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Old 08-01-2013, 09:29 AM   #161
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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All The Wolverine referenced is that Wolverine killed Jean because she was hurting people, they could easily change tons of the events that happened in X3 and still keep that moment. Though it's a moot point really, since The Wolverine takes place before DOFP and is subject to change as well.

Now, do I think they'll do a Star Trek and create and Alternate timeline? No, probably not, but how much they'll change is up to anybody's guess. They could change a ton.

Heck, the continuity of the movies is going to be completely thrown off simply because Wolverine meets Xavier and some of the X-men in the 70's. That completely changes how events in X1 would roll out, not to mention other smaller changes, such as Beast not knowing Logan in X3.

Point being, things are going to change. This movie basically gives them free reign to change as much as they want. And there are a lot of things that they should change.

There's no way to know how much they're going to change, but they are going to be changing things, which I only see as a good thing.
I think one of the key themes of time travel is prevent additional, unwanted changes. You don't want to alter destinies for the sake of it and incur additional adverse ramifications. That's why they may have to undo this whole mindswipe thing such that Logan's destiny does not change for the most part. We don't have memory swipes in this franchise akin to MIB, but maybe they could get creative.

As you said, Beast would remember Logan in TLS if they had met in the 1970's, but does it really matter? 1973 Logan would be bone claw Logan. He wouldn't even be called Wolverine then. Maybe Hank finds TLS version to be vaguely familiar to a guy he knew 30 years ago. Xavier? That guy has pretty much known Logan forever. I don't think that's an issue. Rest of the X-Men aren't even born for all we know.

Assuming Logan's future mind reverts back into the body it belongs, he will obviously wake up in the altered future. Whether the time travel achieved the intended future or otherwise will be answered here. Some possibilites regarding Logan:

1. Say Logan 1970's body gets his 70's conscience back, why would he return to Vietnam? Why would he go through with the procedure and hunt down Creed? Or is he automatically thrusted into the events in Origins?

a) Logan doesn't return to 'Nam. Doesn't get the procedure. That would nullify the entire trilogy, the X-Men being at Alkali Lake in X-2, etc.

b) Stryker and Creed hunt down Logan and the events in Origins transpire a few years later. (Likely scenario)

2. Assuming the above, what happens with present day Wolverine's body?

a) So Logan's brain has returned, but what about his body? Does he wake up with adamantium? That would nullify The Wolverine. Highly unlikely.

b) Wakes up, concious of everything right before the time travel. Now wakes in the world he intended to change. Likely scenario.

3) What changed from the mind swap?

a) Sentinels are no more. But the OT is in tact as is The Wolverine. Only everything after that was affected as the time travel intended. Likely scenario.

b) No changes. Time travel set the course of the events depicted in 2023. Future is ****ed. Plausible.

c) Unintended changes. Cyclops/Jean surviving. Sentinels stopped or simply postponed. Sinister and/or Apocalypse revealed. X-5 on the fast track. Wishful thinking.

So out of those three options, let's look at the most intriguing which is option "c". How is this possible?

-We conclude Origins is intact. Stryker survived. He goes through with X-2 because there is nothing that would seemingly alter that aside from wild, fanboy time travel theories. Jean dies in X-2. Similarly, Cyke is killed in X-3.

-Xavier. The Wolverine post credit scene seems to acknowledge Xavier's death. "How is this possible???" Maybe Logan was referring to the fact that everyone in the airport is frozen, because in this "new" timeline, Logan never met Xavier. But that can't be the case. "As I told you long time ago..." and Magneto's, "You wouldn't trust me, but..." quotes means X-3 happened. The explanation will have to follow the events of TLS.

-The only other plausible scenario is that something in the trilogy changed. And Singer is going to have to show this change in DoFP. There will have to be a flashback. Some unintended consequence resulting from the time travel. We will need to see how Cyke survived Alkali Lake, or how something depicted in X-2 or X-3 explicitly changed. That's the only way to bring back these characters and undo the things fanboys hate. Wishful thinking boys and girls. Plausible based on the rumors though...


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Old 08-01-2013, 10:08 AM   #162
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

Logan doesn't get 'adamantiumized' until 1981.

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Old 08-01-2013, 10:28 AM   #163
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

Origins may have been set around 1979.That's when there was a meltdown at four mile island.

They could explain away beast not knowing WOlverine in last stand by Xavier wiping memory of wolverine.Xavier has been known to do that in Comics.And X2 kinda hinted at both xavier and magneto knowing more about WOlverine than they let on In X-Men.

Also wolverine In 1973 part of DOFP may be after he left team X after events of Africa In Origins.we know the main events of oriigns takes place 6 years after wolverine left team X but we don't know when that happened.Plus when exactly during vietnam war he and sabretooth were recruited and how long after that the events In Africa took place.

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Old 08-01-2013, 11:01 AM   #164
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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No it isn't. Even if they changed it, it is still there. Still on home video, still happened. Even if they play with the timeline, like in comics, what has happened has happened. Even if you make Jean a man, she was still a female in X2.

The only way you can alter a timeline, is by having a timeline in the first place. Just look at Back to the Future. It all still happened.
Dude....really? Come on now, did you actually think that when I suggested that some things might be undone, I actually thought that somehow Origins and X3 would actually cease to be in our world? I would have thought it would have been clear that when I speak of changes, I'm referring to making changes that open up possibilities for future films, like Cyclops being alive, or Jean possibly being back and them allowing for a chance to do a proper Phoenix saga.

I am completely aware that Origins and X3 will still exist in the real world...and I honestly didn't think I needed to clarify what I meant when I talked about what changes could be made.

And Mr. M, Xvaier clearly doesn't know who Logan is in X1, and that changes the whole ball game for that film, because he didn't know who Logan was in X1, he assumed Magneto was after Logan.

If you change things to where now Xvaier (and possibly Magneto) both know who Wolverine is, it changes the plot. Xvaier would probably be more apt to think consider that maybe it was really Rogue they were after since he would have more information on Logan now.

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Old 08-01-2013, 11:22 AM   #165
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The Wikipedia article on Origins: Wolverine gives a date of 1975 for Stryker's recruitment of Logan and Victor and their subsequent missions with Team X, and a date of 'six years later' for the remainder and bulk of the movie. Add six years to 1975 and you get 1981.

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Old 08-01-2013, 11:48 AM   #166
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I don't go by Wiki.Foreign Involvement In vietnam ended In 1973.Plus the four mile high nuclear planet had meltdown In 1979.

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Old 08-01-2013, 11:50 AM   #167
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I don't go by Wiki.Foreign Involvement In vietnam ended In 1973.Plus the four mile high nuclear planet had meltdown In 1979.
Origins was messed up on historical events anyway. It said Logan was living in Canada in 1845...when it didn't become a country until 1867.

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Old 08-01-2013, 11:57 AM   #168
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Inless Bryan Singer Is going to totally overwrite Origins In DOFP wolverine being recruited
by Team X and leaving happened by 1973.

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:20 PM   #169
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Dude....really? Come on now, did you actually think that when I suggested that some things might be undone, I actually thought that somehow Origins and X3 would actually cease to be in our world? I would have thought it would have been clear that when I speak of changes, I'm referring to making changes that open up possibilities for future films, like Cyclops being alive, or Jean possibly being back and them allowing for a chance to do a proper Phoenix saga.

I am completely aware that Origins and X3 will still exist in the real world...and I honestly didn't think I needed to clarify what I meant when I talked about what changes could be made.

And Mr. M, Xvaier clearly doesn't know who Logan is in X1, and that changes the whole ball game for that film, because he didn't know who Logan was in X1, he assumed Magneto was after Logan.

If you change things to where now Xvaier (and possibly Magneto) both know who Wolverine is, it changes the plot. Xvaier would probably be more apt to think consider that maybe it was really Rogue they were after since he would have more information on Logan now.
You missed the point. Xavier already knows your entire life after he reads your mind. What difference does it make if you can look at someone for the first time and recollect the past 15 years of their life? It's like you have known that person all along. As long as Logan's mind gets restored to normal, it will not present a major contradiction to the events in X-1.

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Old 08-03-2013, 11:50 PM   #170
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Now, do I think they'll do a Star Trek and create and Alternate timeline? No, probably not
Why not? That's basically what happened in the DOFP comic. Star Trek is probably a pretty good template for what should happen, but the enduring popularity of single-timeline makes me worried that Singer might be into it.

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As of The Wolverine, yes, everything that has happened, happened.

DOFP, however, is another matter entirely.
No matter what happens in DOFP, everything that has happened still happened. We may refer to the Star Trek analogy. The 2009 Star Trek film created an alternate timeline, but everything that happened in the various prior films and TV episodes still happened, despite the fact that none of it is expected to "re-happen" the same way in the new timeline.


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Old 08-04-2013, 01:42 AM   #171
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Default Re: Is orgins still apart of the timeline now?

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All The Wolverine referenced is that Wolverine killed Jean because she was hurting people, they could easily change tons of the events that happened in X3 and still keep that moment. Though it's a moot point really, since The Wolverine takes place before DOFP and is subject to change as well.

Now, do I think they'll do a Star Trek and create and Alternate timeline? No, probably not, but how much they'll change is up to anybody's guess. They could change a ton.

Heck, the continuity of the movies is going to be completely thrown off simply because Wolverine meets Xviaver and some of the X-men in the 70's. That completely changes how events in X1 would roll out, not to mention other smaller changes, such as Beast not knowing Logan in X3.

Point being, things are going to change. This movie basically gives them free reign to change as much as they want. And there are a lot of things that they should change.

There's no way to know how much they're going to change, but they are going to be changing things, which I only see as a good thing.
The Wolverine also had actual footage from X-Men: The Last Stand with the picture of Logan and Storm at Alkali Lake.

Let's not try to downplay the connection that The Wolverine made to X-Men: The Last Stand. It's blatantly obvious.

As far as the time traveler being Logan, and knowing Xavier before the events of X-Men, well, that's probably where the altered timeline comes in.

In the original timeline, Xavier -hadn't- met Logan to that point. Xavier doesn't have to send Logan back in time until 2013 or 2023, whenever the time travel sequences happen. In the original timeline, before the time travel, Xavier hadn't met Logan prior to the events of X-Men.

Then, as Sentinels are unleashed, and the existence of mutants becomes as horrid as it does, the time travel takes place, which effects the timeline and gives us an altered timeline.

Even if it doesn't retcon everything and undo things, it's not contradicting with what was established in X-Men due to the fact that these events still didn't happen until -after- the events of X-Men regardless.

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Old 08-04-2013, 08:49 PM   #172
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The whole Jean Grey stuff.

The picture of X3 Storm and Wolverine.

I think X3 still has a big part of this timeline. It might be altered, but def not omitted or changed drastically.

I haven't seen any connections with origins tbh. Nonetheless, I don't think the origin movie really matters. Every writer has their own orogin story. All we need to know is Stryker manipulated Logan, Logan got metal on his claws, and that he hates Sabertooth.

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Old 08-04-2013, 09:20 PM   #173
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The whole Jean Grey stuff.

The picture of X3 Storm and Wolverine.

I think X3 still has a big part of this timeline. It might be altered, but def not omitted or changed drastically.

I haven't seen any connections with origins tbh. Nonetheless, I don't think the origin movie really matters. Every writer has their own orogin story. All we need to know is Stryker manipulated Logan, Logan got metal on his claws, and that he hates Sabertooth.
Kayla was blatantly referenced in The Wolverine, so there's one connection.

Logan's entire WWII arc and bone claws arc are all aspects that were introduced and implemented in X-Men Origins: Wolverine, and they were included in The Wolverine expecting the audience to have pre-existing knowledge of these elements. Elements that, in the film universe, can only have come from X-Men Origins: Wolverine.

That movie is very much a part of the timeline.

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Old 08-04-2013, 11:23 PM   #174
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I don't really see the need of disregarding Origins as one of the "canon films". Like what happens, if FOX disregard it? Are they gonna do another film featuring the origin story of Wolverine? They don't even need to address the things that happened in Origins in the future movies.

The only problems I see are if they want to retell the origin of Cyclops and if they want to use Deadpool again. But with a good writer, it can be solved easily without ignoring what happened in Origins.

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Old 08-04-2013, 11:43 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by psylockolussus View Post
I don't really see the need of disregarding Origins as one of the "canon films". Like what happens, if FOX disregard it? Are they gonna do another film featuring the origin story of Wolverine? They don't even need to address the things that happened in Origins in the future movies.

The only problems I see are if they want to retell the origin of Cyclops and if they want to use Deadpool again. But with a good writer, it can be solved easily without ignoring what happened in Origins.
I doubt they will really want to retell the origin of Cyclops, and if they want to use him in some future X-Men film, they still can. Cyclops was recruited by Xavier in X-Men Origins: Wolverine afterall, so they really don't have to work much magic to make it happen.

As far as Deadpool is concerned, this is about the one exception where I don't care if a future Deadpool movie keeping X-Men Origins: Wolverine in continuity or not. Deadpool is just as much an independent source material as it is attached to the X-Men material. Deadpool has his own source material, and isn't just a spinoff property of the X-Men universe. They could completely disregard his appearance in X-Men Origins: Wolverine in a future Deadpool movie, and I won't be worried about it one bit, as it will probably be its own world anyways independent of the X-Men film universe.

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