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Old 08-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #926
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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Yeah, I think it did, barely.

MoS, for all I didn't like about it also passed.

Bechdel is important to develop female characters beyond the standard love interest/sex object role in a movie. I mean, it's a very simple threshold to pass: two women, having a convo that doesn't revolve around a man.

Yet movies fail it time and time again. And male characters have convos after convos that revolve around everything. Yet women cannot be developed the same? Come on.

Studios need to start recognizing that better developed female characters and stories will help their movies, not continually pigeonholing women into predetermined roles. (Same with actors of color too... I want a darn hero of color comic book movie!!)

I really hope that the Russos pass Bechdel since there are several kickass women in this movie. I would kill for a Widow/Sharon or Widow/Hill or Widow/Sharon/Hill/Peggy/Whatever scene!
I wouldn't be too concerned with the Bechdel test, it's a conversation starter. That's all. It doesn't say anything substantial about how well female characters are presented. Avengers fails and that does no disservice to its female characters, along with likely thousands of other films and whatnot. In the same vein, works that pass the Bechdel aren't more likely to actually present a well developed or strong female character.

If the writing is strong, the women will be fine regardless of Bechdel.

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Old 08-01-2013, 11:51 AM   #927
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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I wouldn't be too concerned with the Bechdel test, it's a conversation starter. That's all. It doesn't say anything substantial about how well female characters are presented. Avengers fails and that does no disservice to its female characters, along with likely thousands of other films and whatnot. In the same vein, works that pass the Bechdel aren't more likely to actually present a well developed or strong female character.

If the writing is strong, the women will be fine regardless of Bechdel.
I think Bechdel is kind of seen as a "conversation starter" as you put it, because instances of two or more women having conversations in movies that don't revolve around men, especially in big tentpole movies like the MCU are, are so novel that even a five second conversation between two females can get us worked up into a tizzy about it.

The problem is, the female characters aren't allowed to have substantial non-male-centric interaction, which is a major, major problem. The male characters have discussions that don't concern women, they talk about everything under the sun in these movies. They fight, they talk, they snark... Women are being written better in some of these movies, but their interactions with other women are extremely limited.

I think it's important to recognize that and to demand more inclusion, more character development, etc. from any of these movies. Same goes for characters of color - Marvel has a very diverse slate, but they really should go for it and give us a Black Panther movie.

I'm really hoping that Cap 2 and Guardians, two movies that have a pretty diverse cast, will give us some quality female character interactions, especially with the whole Gamora/Nebula conflict in Guardians.

ETA: don't get me wrong. The Cap franchise has my favorite female character in any CBM, Peggy Carter. And the way Black Widow's been developed? I absolutely adore her! But I still demand more from Marvel Studios.

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:02 PM   #928
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

Widow, Maria, Peggy and Sharon should have a scene together with important dialogue, like debating who they'd date between Cap and Falcon lol I kid I kid! don't kill me Suzanne!

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:08 PM   #929
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Widow, Maria, Peggy and Sharon should have a scene together with important dialogue, like debating who they'd date between Cap and Falcon lol I kid I kid! don't kill me Suzanne!
Or they can mud wrestle to sort it all out!

Or wet T-shirt contest?

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:12 PM   #930
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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Or they can mud wrestle to sort it all out!

Or wet T-shirt contest?
I would never suggest something so demeaning! .....but maybe they could be sewing Cap and Falcon's costumes while they are discussing it. Marvel Sewing circle spin-off!

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:46 PM   #931
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

Maybe they can debate it formally with on their headquarters on a relaxing game of strip poker.

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:57 PM   #932
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I would never suggest something so demeaning! .....but maybe they could be sewing Cap and Falcon's costumes while they are discussing it. Marvel Sewing circle spin-off!
Only if they're barefoot and pregnant at the same time!



I cannot wait to see the part where Widow or Sharon are killed off to give Cap his maximum amount of MANPAIN!!

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Maybe they can debate it formally with on their headquarters on a relaxing game of strip poker.
This will segue nicely to the naked tickle fights I'm sure Marvel is planning!

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:06 PM   #933
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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Only if they're barefoot and pregnant at the same time!



I cannot wait to see the part where Widow or Sharon are killed off to give Cap his maximum amount of MANPAIN!!
Not to mention chained to the kitchen sink!

And whichever one isn't killed off can be used as the cypher to ease his Manpian!

Joking aside I think a scene with Peggy and Black Widow just discussing the changes in the field since Peggy's day's would be cool.

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:22 PM   #934
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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I think Bechdel is kind of seen as a "conversation starter" as you put it, because instances of two or more women having conversations in movies that don't revolve around men, especially in big tentpole movies like the MCU are, are so novel that even a five second conversation between two females can get us worked up into a tizzy about it.

The problem is, the female characters aren't allowed to have substantial non-male-centric interaction, which is a major, major problem. The male characters have discussions that don't concern women, they talk about everything under the sun in these movies. They fight, they talk, they snark... Women are being written better in some of these movies, but their interactions with other women are extremely limited.

I think it's important to recognize that and to demand more inclusion, more character development, etc. from any of these movies. Same goes for characters of color - Marvel has a very diverse slate, but they really should go for it and give us a Black Panther movie.

I'm really hoping that Cap 2 and Guardians, two movies that have a pretty diverse cast, will give us some quality female character interactions, especially with the whole Gamora/Nebula conflict in Guardians.

ETA: don't get me wrong. The Cap franchise has my favorite female character in any CBM, Peggy Carter. And the way Black Widow's been developed? I absolutely adore her! But I still demand more from Marvel Studios.
The problem is that there are essentially two issues here which may often appear together but can't both be examined by Bechdel. You're right in saying that Bechdel is considered a conversation starter because instances of films passing are few, so few that it fails to actually say anything critical about films on an individual level. It has value when making a statement about how society has accepted a representation of women in stories that doesn't reflect reality. That should be a point of discussion.

The issue of whether female characters are strong or well developed or essential to the plot is one Bechdel can't touch. Your quote in bold, for example, is something that is a problem, but one that's part of a different discussion. (I say this on what I consider the reasonable assumption that a conversation between a male and female character shouldn't be considered 'male-centric'). Essentially, I'm saying Bechdel is a macro-scale concept that I don't believe should be applied as a yard stick in the micro-scale arena of adapting works that were from different eras.

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:56 PM   #935
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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I think it's mainly because Sam doesn't want Tony to create Ultron and he sees Zola as the viable option that can prevent a plot point he hates.
Thanks for the psychoanalysis, doctor....I wasn't aware you were an expert on what I hate or don't hate.


The reason I have Zola in my theories is because all the discussion at SDCC centered around CATWS informing AoU, *not* IM3. And Zola remains the "wild card," the guy we haven't seen or heard from yet. Sort of like Guy Pearce before we found out *he* was the central villain of IM3. And there's the unquestionable similarities between Zola and Ultron as AIs and androids. To me, the puzzle pieces are pretty transparent.

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Old 08-01-2013, 02:05 PM   #936
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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Thanks for the psychoanalysis, doctor....I wasn't aware you were an expert on what I hate or don't hate.


The reason I have Zola in my theories is because all the discussion at SDCC centered around CATWS informing AoU, *not* IM3. And Zola remains the "wild card," the guy we haven't seen or heard from yet. Sort of like Guy Pearce before we found out *he* was the central villain of IM3. And there's the unquestionable similarities between Zola and Ultron as AIs and androids. To me, the puzzle pieces are pretty transparent.
IM3 is supposed to have big implications for the MCU that aren't obvious....
and Cap 2 is suppose to have lead into Avengers 2 in a big way and show where "allegiances lay"

both films are supposed to impact A2 in some way...IM3's is supposed to be less obvious to the viewer

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Old 08-01-2013, 02:24 PM   #937
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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Thanks for the psychoanalysis, doctor....I wasn't aware you were an expert on what I hate or don't hate.


The reason I have Zola in my theories is because all the discussion at SDCC centered around CATWS informing AoU, *not* IM3. And Zola remains the "wild card," the guy we haven't seen or heard from yet. Sort of like Guy Pearce before we found out *he* was the central villain of IM3. And there's the unquestionable similarities between Zola and Ultron as AIs and androids. To me, the puzzle pieces are pretty transparent.
So you aren't pissed about Stark possibly being the one to create Ultron? And you're welcome for the analysis, first one is free.

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Old 08-01-2013, 02:59 PM   #938
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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The problem is that there are essentially two issues here which may often appear together but can't both be examined by Bechdel. You're right in saying that Bechdel is considered a conversation starter because instances of films passing are few, so few that it fails to actually say anything critical about films on an individual level. It has value when making a statement about how society has accepted a representation of women in stories that doesn't reflect reality. That should be a point of discussion.

The issue of whether female characters are strong or well developed or essential to the plot is one Bechdel can't touch. Your quote in bold, for example, is something that is a problem, but one that's part of a different discussion. (I say this on what I consider the reasonable assumption that a conversation between a male and female character shouldn't be considered 'male-centric'). Essentially, I'm saying Bechdel is a macro-scale concept that I don't believe should be applied as a yard stick in the micro-scale arena of adapting works that were from different eras.
Sorry, I think that my initial Bechdel discussion inadvertently took over the board. Not my intention

Ultimately I agree with your points about female characters. That the Marvel movies didn't pass Bechdel (save for Thor and IM3) don't lessen my enjoyment of them. I do feel that the female characters in the MCU movies have agency and voices independent of the lead male heroes. And you're right, that these are essentially adaptations of books from a different era, where the depictions of females and persons of color were marginalized means interactions between females will be limited. Just looking at the casting for these movies, Marvel is getting a lot of things right.

It just gets... humorously frustrating to have really cool female characters in these movies but then have their depiction hampered in other ways. Such that they still don't really receive equal treatment onscreen to their male counterparts. Regardless of the era that these adaptations are pulled from, Bechdel starts that conversation off, and I think the test can be looked at as short-hand for the larger problem of female character portrayals and identity in big tentpole films such as these. I see it in a lot of the Twitter reactions from bloggers following the release of these movies, and on other boards with forums or threads devoted to these movies, threads which are dominated by female viewers and fans. Bechdel has become the fast and easy way to lead into a discussion about which movies are getting female characterization/interactions right. It's not the be-all-end-all, although I mention it a lot in this forum, but, like I said, it's kind of the gateway into the bigger issue for many women.

Ugh! Computer is typing really slow. Hope that made sense.

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Old 08-01-2013, 03:25 PM   #939
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

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Thanks for the psychoanalysis, doctor....I wasn't aware you were an expert on what I hate or don't hate.


The reason I have Zola in my theories is because all the discussion at SDCC centered around CATWS informing AoU, *not* IM3. And Zola remains the "wild card," the guy we haven't seen or heard from yet. Sort of like Guy Pearce before we found out *he* was the central villain of IM3. And there's the unquestionable similarities between Zola and Ultron as AIs and androids. To me, the puzzle pieces are pretty transparent.

Are the "*" added for emphasis?

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Old 08-01-2013, 03:58 PM   #940
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

My only thought on the "Bechdel Test" is that IM3 passed it, even though the two females were both girlfriends in the story who's arcs were reliant on the male lead.

Avengers, on the other hand, fails the test, but has a couple of strong independant women who aren't pigeonholed as just the female love interest.

So that right there shows a huge flaw to that whole argument.
That said, it would be nice to see some more convo's between said strong female characters

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Old 08-01-2013, 04:10 PM   #941
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Are the "*" added for emphasis?
Yeah I never understood that either.

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Old 08-01-2013, 04:20 PM   #942
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My only thought on the "Bechdel Test" is that IM3 passed it, even though the two females were both girlfriends in the story who's arcs were reliant on the male lead.

Avengers, on the other hand, fails the test, but has a couple of strong independant women who aren't pigeonholed as just the female love interest.

So that right there shows a huge flaw to that whole argument.
That said, it would be nice to see some more convo's between said strong female characters
Twilight passes the test.

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Old 08-01-2013, 04:48 PM   #943
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

So, has the Disney XD Fandom thing provided any good sneak peaks for TWS?

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Old 08-01-2013, 04:51 PM   #944
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So, has the Disney XD Fandom thing provided any good sneak peaks for TWS?
Doesn't look like it.

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Old 08-01-2013, 04:51 PM   #945
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So, has the Disney XD Fandom thing provided any good sneak peaks for TWS?
Apparently it hasn't shown any new footage for any of the films. Just some comic con interviews and what not.

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Old 08-01-2013, 04:58 PM   #946
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So you aren't pissed about Stark possibly being the one to create Ultron? And you're welcome for the analysis, first one is free.
I'm *pissed* that Hank Pym isn't creating Ultron; I just don't *think* that Tony Stark is the best alternative for the job (more Stark-centrism, less psychodrama between creator and creation, paints MCU golden boy Iron Man in a lesser light, etc.). Zola is a better choice, imho, and creates some nice linkage to Cap's past and present.



...And *yes,* the *asterisks* are there for emphasis and effect, an affectation I've always had. Let Dr. Rider here provide you with all the reasons why, since he's the alleged expert on Me. He charges by the hour, though.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:10 PM   #947
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I'm *pissed* that Hank Pym isn't creating Ultron; I just don't *think* that Tony Stark is the best alternative for the job (more Stark-centrism, less psychodrama between creator and creation, paints MCU golden boy Iron Man in a lesser light, etc.). Zola is a better choice, imho, and creates some nice linkage to Cap's past and present.

...And *yes,* the *asterisks* are there for emphasis and effect, an affectation I've always had. Let Dr. Rider here provide you with all the reasons why, since he's the alleged expert on Me. He charges by the hour, though.
Hmmm, interesting, your "**** Tony Stark and the RDJ fanboys" stuff you posted when you found out there was no Pym seemed to indicate you were pissed at Iron Man again being so central, just as much as you were that Pym wasn't going to create Ultron. Adding in a character from the first Cap movie as creator makes more sense than the established and ultra popular Tony Stark creating him (in a way we are not yet aware of) thus giving a lead Avenger a direct connection with the villain? Interesting, but I guess this is for the Ultron thread.

Oh my prices aren't that steep, you'll scare off potential customers man.
I'd need to read more ranting paragraphs on your asterisks love to really gauge as unlike with the Ultron's creation I don't have nearly as much unfiltered, emotionally uncut, dramatic material to analyze.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:13 PM   #948
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

I thought Kevin confirmed Tony was creating Ultron or did that not happen?

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:14 PM   #949
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 7

Perhaps IM3 is showing that Marvel Studios are going to take more risks in phase 2

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:24 PM   #950
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Hmmm, interesting, your "**** Tony Stark and the RDJ fanboys" stuff you posted when you found out there was no Pym seemed to indicate you were pissed at Iron Man again being so central, just as much as you were that Pym wasn't going to create Ultron. Adding in a character from the first Cap movie as creator makes more sense than the established and ultra popular Tony Stark creating him (in a way we are not yet aware of) thus giving a lead Avenger a direct connection with the villain? Interesting, but I guess this is for the Ultron thread.

Oh my prices aren't that steep, you'll scare off potential customers man.
I'd need to read more ranting paragraphs on your asterisks love to really gauge as unlike with the Ultron's creation I don't have nearly as much unfiltered, emotionally uncut, dramatic material to analyze.

Here's an idea: why don't you stick to moderating and lay off the armchair psychoanalysis? Your condescension is not becoming of someone in a moderator position, and I don't appreciate you pretending to understand and expound upon what I think, what I feel, what I like and what I don't like, and the reasons behind that. All I'm doing is expressing opinions and speculation about movies; feel free to agree or disagree with those opinions. I don't try to ram my opinions down anyone else's throat, and I certainly appreciate when they extend me the same courtesy. But you're taking this to a personal level, and I don't appreciate it. Is there another Mod I can report this kind of conduct to?

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