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Old 08-06-2013, 09:28 AM   #51
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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No, "The Wolverine" line wasn't about an origin. After Logan saved Yashida in Nagasaki, Yashida told the story of what happened in the years that followed, referring to Logan as "the Kuzuri", which means "the Wolverine."

His son never really bought it, but according to Mariko, he used to tell her about "the Kuzuri" when she had a nightmare, saying the Kuzuri would protect her. It was like a fantasy character in a children's story to her. When she sees Logan fighting off the assassins at the funeral, with his claws out and surviving injuries, she actually looks at him and says, "Kuzuri...", because she realizes that this was the person her grandfather told her about.

But Logan is so wracked with guilt over killing Jean, that when Mariko tells him this story later and asks who Jean was, he explains that he'd killed Jean and the Kuzuri along with her.

When Shingen takes on Logan and asks what kind of monster he is because he can't believe what he sees, he says "The Wolverine", because he's telling Shingen that he's the guy Yashida had told him stories about. And that he better watch the **** out, because he's pissed. That he'll survive whatever gets thrown at him, and he'll protect Mariko. He basically became the guy in Yashida's story then.

It's not an origin line, it's about Logan fighting his way back to the person he's meant to be.
This just made me love the movie even more haha. When you think about it, there are quite a lot of deep undertones in this film, especially when you read it in a quote like that.

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Old 08-06-2013, 10:55 AM   #52
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

We got a prequel already (which sucked, but was made regardless). This was about Logan's redemption, letting go of the past and moving towards the future with renewed purpose.

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Old 08-06-2013, 11:31 AM   #53
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

If he is gonna leave the past alone,and focus on the future,then why is he gonna travel back in time in the next x-movie.

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Old 08-06-2013, 11:34 AM   #54
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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If he is gonna leave the past alone,and focus on the future,then why is he gonna travel back in time in the next x-movie.
Well, that's not just for his benefit, obviously. It's to stop an apocalyptic future from happening.

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Old 08-06-2013, 12:19 PM   #55
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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yes, a prequel. Just look at the movie title. "the wolverine". I was expecting where wolverine learned his fighting arts. Why he went to Japan in the first place. And why he left. etc.

Everything about this movie felt like an origins movie with the exception of it actually taking place after x3. There was even a scene where he goes "I'm the wolverine". The cliche line for any super hero origin movie ("I'm batman", "its Spiderman!").

Its obivious they changed it to a revisit story at the last minute due to dofp.
If you read the mini series that this movie was based on, he does not go to Japan to learn fighting arts, he goes to Japan for Mariko. Once he is there, he learns she is engaged to be married, and a story very similar to the movie plays out.

The the series this movie is based upon, Wolverine isn't going to Japan to learn about the culture or the ways of the samurai. Why would that be what this movie is about?

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Old 08-06-2013, 12:25 PM   #56
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Hated that Wolverine never got to train in the martial arts. Why couldn't he have been offered the ability to train with the best samurai. This master could have been named Ogun. At first he would have resisted, but it would have been a great dishonor to refuse, so he would go through with it. They could have shown how he embraced Bushido, which started to help him find peace, and that his skill impressed his master, which could have caused jealousy for the Master's other student. This all would have led to the Ronin moniker, which would have now made better sense.

Then Yashida could die and the story progress from there. They could have even had a scene where Mariko could have seen Logan during training and how she would have been developing respect and appreciation for his transformation.

But instead we have a Wolverine who, as far as we've been shown, has never been trained in the martial arts, and that's too bad!

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Old 08-06-2013, 12:26 PM   #57
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If you read the mini series that this movie was based on, he does not go to Japan to learn fighting arts, he goes to Japan for Mariko. Once he is there, he learns she is engaged to be married, and a story very similar to the movie plays out.

The the series this movie is based upon, Wolverine isn't going to Japan to learn about the culture or the ways of the samurai. Why would that be what this movie is about?
Because in the comic he trained in Bushido with Master Ogun many years earlier. Since that was not used, why not try to incorporate it into this movie so we would have a martial arts trained Wolverine?

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Old 08-06-2013, 12:38 PM   #58
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Because it would add an additional thirty to forty minutes to the movie and it the point of the film was Logan at his lowest point, badass martial artists doesn't equal lowest point. Besides, it was fun to see Wolverine's brute strength and berserker rage go up against highly trained swordsmen, ninjas, and martial artists.

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Old 08-06-2013, 01:20 PM   #59
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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Because in the comic he trained in Bushido with Master Ogun many years earlier. Since that was not used, why not try to incorporate it into this movie so we would have a martial arts trained Wolverine?
Too much of a diversion. Far better to see culture shock/clash and berserker rage vs samurai then wolverine becoming a martial arts expert. Your idea just doesn't fit the film.

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Old 08-06-2013, 01:24 PM   #60
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^ I am sure they could have added the samurai training aspect by reducing some of the unnessary stuff. For example, did we really need Harada? What was the purpose of that character?

Logan would still have been at his lowest, making the martial arts training difficult, but it would have been able to help him move on. He wouldn't have started as a "badass martial artist". It would have actually been funny to see the master beat Wolverine's rage with unparralled skill. This would have added a whole new dimension to on-screen Wolvie.

I guess what I'm saying is that all of your reasons to not include this don't hold water since you could have still done everything you bring up, which might of actually have been enhanced with Wolvie being trained as a Samurai!

This was a lost opportunity for Wolverine's on-screen character and it wouldn't have been a diversion if it was incorporated into the story properly!

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Old 08-06-2013, 01:24 PM   #61
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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Because in the comic he trained in Bushido with Master Ogun many years earlier. Since that was not used, why not try to incorporate it into this movie so we would have a martial arts trained Wolverine?
Because that's not the story they were telling. That's not part of the original story, and it didn't fit the narrative of what they were trying to get across.

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Old 08-06-2013, 01:28 PM   #62
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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^ I am sure they could have added the samurai training aspect by reducing some of the unnessary stuff. For example, did we really need Harada? What was the purpose of that character?

Logan would still have been at his lowest, making the martial arts training difficult, but it would have been able to help him move on. He wouldn't have started as a "badass martial artist". It would have actually been funny to see the master beat Wolverine's rage with unparralled skill. This would have added a whole new dimension to on-screen Wolvie.

I guess what I'm saying is that all of your reasons to not include this don't hold water since you could have still done everything you bring up, which might of actually have been enhanced with Wolvie being trained as a Samurai!

This was a lost opportunity for Wolverine's on-screen character!
I don't think you really understand storytelling technique.

Just shoving stuff in there that doesn't fit the narrative is what people having been complaining about for X-Men: The Last Stand and X-Men Origins: Wolverine, and something the franchise has been moving past with X-Men: First Class and now The Wolverine.

You don't just toss something in that has nothing to do with the story you're telling just for the sake of doing it.

And if Harada was as insignificant as you say, and this samurai stuff was as in depth as you want, then no, taking out Harada is not an even swap for samurai.

But the difference is, Harada is a part of the story this movie was telling. Samurai Logan is not.

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Old 08-06-2013, 01:42 PM   #63
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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^ I am sure they could have added the samurai training aspect by reducing some of the unnessary stuff. For example, did we really need Harada? What was the purpose of that character?

Logan would still have been at his lowest, making the martial arts training difficult, but it would have been able to help him move on. He wouldn't have started as a "badass martial artist". It would have actually been funny to see the master beat Wolverine's rage with unparralled skill. This would have added a whole new dimension to on-screen Wolvie.

I guess what I'm saying is that all of your reasons to not include this don't hold water since you could have still done everything you bring up, which might of actually have been enhanced with Wolvie being trained as a Samurai!

This was a lost opportunity for Wolverine's on-screen character and it wouldn't have been a diversion if it was incorporated into the story properly!
Well, I know I'm right in my assumptions of it being an unnecessary element since they chose not to put your idea into the movie. Therefore, it can't have been one that fitted or worked.

Seriously, the film did not need to show Wolverine suddenly saying 'Hey, can I learn karate' or whatever.

If the crux of the story had been Wolverine going to Japan in a desperate bid to control his animal nature, then that might have fitted. But that wasn't the story they were telling.

We also needed to see berserker rage (at last, after Origins made him a pussycat) not him doing kung-fu manoeuvres in a gown.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:28 PM   #64
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^ First, no one is saying that Wolverine should have gone to Japan and said "Hey, can I learn karate". That is not what Logan would have done with where he was in the world. But, Yashida, knowing where Logan was in life, could have given him this gift. It absolutely could have fit into this whole concept and could have been used to show him learning to control the beserker. I would have liked to see that element.

You guys are saying that it wasn't part of the original story, but in many ways it is/was. A big part of who Wolverine is in the comics is because of the time he spent in Japan, and more importantly, the time he devoted to Bushido! If they didn't want to tell this story in a way that would have been part prelude (Wolvie in Japen with Ogun) and then later going back to Japan and meeting Mariko, then they should have incorporated him learning the martial arts at the same time he was meeting Mariko. Again, it's a very big part of who Wolverine is, or at least who he is suppoed to be!

Not sure why you guys can't see that. Maybe you guys are looking at this solely from this one movie aspect, but I'm looking at it from the comics I grew up with and the respect I had for Wolverine's character when it came to his martial arts training and what all of that led to.

Now that's not "shoving stuff in there that doesn't fit". It could have very much been part of the story, of Wolverine learning to control his beserker side while learning, through the peace of Martial Arts, to be a better person and to heal the emotional wounds.

Now I do believe that Harada wasn't needed. You tell me if I'm wrong on that. What was the significance of Harada (other than the name - which should have been the Silver Samurai)?

If we needed more time I am sure they could have cut on some of the Viper junk, if not the whole villain. Was she really necessary? Did she really fit in this movie? Don't get me wrong, the character was cool in some ways, but seemed forced and overall was an epic fail!

I would have very much prefered the story going into Wolverine learning Bushido, with all of the elements I indicated above, over what Viper brought to this story!

Are you saying you liked Viper in this? My feeling is that they forced her into this so she can't be used in Avengers (She's been equally in both Wolverine/X-men and Avengers).

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:51 PM   #65
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

The only thing I didn't like was the final battle. It felt too out of place in the context of the rest of the movie.

The film probably would have been perfect if it shaved off that ending and pulled the climax up to when Logan removes the nanobot and battles Shingen.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:55 PM   #66
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

I didnt like the fact Logan never used a sword once, all those great promo shots and not one fight with a glorious katana. Not so much a dislike as a dissapointment it wasnt included.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:55 PM   #67
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

Yashida didn't care if Logan learned martial arts. He wanted his healing factor. That was his entire motivation. He assumed Logan wanted to die (which he didn't), and thought he was giving him the "gift" of mortality. The whole point of suppressing his healing factor was so they could capture him and take it by force when wouldn't give it willingly.

Everyone who reads the comics knows Wolverine's connection with Japan, but that's never been established in the movie universe. Even the WWII stuff seen in Origins was from D-Day, so fans of the movies would have no idea he'd been to Japan (the Origins end credits scene was after he'd lost his memory, so any connection he still had was lost). So the idea with the film is to introduce both Logan and the audience to this new Japanese setting. And that worked.

The martial arts thing is cool, but it adds nothing new to the plot. We already know he can fight. The story was about Logan trying to reconcile who he already was, not try to become someone else.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:56 PM   #68
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

Yes, I liked Viper in this, thought she was well done, and made even more important and relevant than she was in the comic arc. Nowhere even close to an "epic fail".

I am looking at it from a movie aspect and a comic aspect, and movie aspect, Logan being a samurai has had no sort of implementation in the least bit, and comic aspect, the comic they were adapting didn't utilize it either. They didn't even go the "honor" route in Logan's battle with Shingen, so that entire dynamic had no place in this movie, and I for one have no desire to see it. I didn't like that aspect of Batman Begins, and I don't care to see it here either.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:58 PM   #69
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I'm not sure I want to see Logan learn martial arts, I dont think it would suit this movie version of the character, doesnt sit well with me.

Training as a Samurai maybe, but martial arts, not for me.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:59 PM   #70
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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Yashida didn't care if Logan learned martial arts. He wanted his healing factor. That was his entire motivation. He assumed Logan wanted to die (which he didn't), and thought he was giving him the "gift" of mortality. The whole point of suppressing his healing factor was so they could capture him and take it by force when wouldn't give it willingly.

Everyone who reads the comics knows Wolverine's connection with Japan, but that's never been established in the movie universe. Even the WWII stuff seen in Origins was from D-Day, so fans of the movies would have no idea he'd been to Japan (the Origins end credits scene was after he'd lost his memory, so any connection he still had was lost). So the idea with the film is to introduce both Logan and the audience to this new Japanese setting. And that worked.

The martial arts thing is cool, but it adds nothing new to the plot. We already know he can fight. The story was about Logan trying to reconcile who he already was, not try to become someone else.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:08 PM   #71
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

I'm surprisingly OK with the last act. If the Samurai/robot/thing had been 100 feet tall and destroying downtown Tokyo, I would have thought they'd gone way too far and ridiculous.

But it was still pretty contained for what it was, and the whole story with Yashida was leading up to it anyway so it worked well enough for me.

I loved that neither of the two female characters needed rescuing. In fact, they were the ones who had to save his ass through that whole finale. And they did that with their clothes on, which is more than I can say for Iron Man 3's finale.

(And I loved Iron Man 3. But Mariko & Yukio >>>>>>Pepper Potts in their respective finales).

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Old 08-06-2013, 03:12 PM   #72
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^ First, no one is saying that Wolverine should have gone to Japan and said "Hey, can I learn karate". That is not what Logan would have done with where he was in the world. But, Yashida, knowing where Logan was in life, could have given him this gift. It absolutely could have fit into this whole concept and could have been used to show him learning to control the beserker. I would have liked to see that element.

You guys are saying that it wasn't part of the original story, but in many ways it is/was. A big part of who Wolverine is in the comics is because of the time he spent in Japan, and more importantly, the time he devoted to Bushido! If they didn't want to tell this story in a way that would have been part prelude (Wolvie in Japen with Ogun) and then later going back to Japan and meeting Mariko, then they should have incorporated him learning the martial arts at the same time he was meeting Mariko. Again, it's a very big part of who Wolverine is, or at least who he is suppoed to be!

Not sure why you guys can't see that. Maybe you guys are looking at this solely from this one movie aspect, but I'm looking at it from the comics I grew up with and the respect I had for Wolverine's character when it came to his martial arts training and what all of that led to.

Now that's not "shoving stuff in there that doesn't fit". It could have very much been part of the story, of Wolverine learning to control his beserker side while learning, through the peace of Martial Arts, to be a better person and to heal the emotional wounds.
Yashida didn't want him to be at peace and in control, he wanted Wolverine weakened.

I know the comics well and, in this instance, I don't think it would have worked to show Wolverine learning martial arts. To what purpose? We'd then need to see him fighting with martial arts (or they would be no point seeing him learn it) and he'd never win against the experienced fighters who had been doing it for years, so it would be pointless. Far better to see his rage and his claws up against the Japanese fighting techniques.

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Now I do believe that Harada wasn't needed. You tell me if I'm wrong on that. What was the significance of Harada (other than the name - which should have been the Silver Samurai)?

If we needed more time I am sure they could have cut on some of the Viper junk, if not the whole villain. Was she really necessary? Did she really fit in this movie? Don't get me wrong, the character was cool in some ways, but seemed forced and overall was an epic fail!

I would have very much prefered the story going into Wolverine learning Bushido, with all of the elements I indicated above, over what Viper brought to this story!

Are you saying you liked Viper in this? My feeling is that they forced her into this so she can't be used in Avengers (She's been equally in both Wolverine/X-men and Avengers).
Viper features in the comic book saga and was in the script for this years ago, when Aronofsky was attached to the project. So I don't think she was rushed into it to sabotage Avengers. Fox likely has the rights to Viper while Marvel more than likely retains the Madame Hydra aspect, so there is still chance for Marvel to use her. And look at what's happening with Quicksilver - two versions are appearing, one from Fox and one from Marvel. So i don't think she was included in Wolverine out of studio spite.

She served a purpose in the comic with her skills with poisons, and served a similar purpose here.

I really don't see what you are getting at, and why seeing Wolverine in a robe doing ju-jitu moves would have made this movie any better.

To me, that doesn't fit the story at all. It's unnecessary.

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Old 08-06-2013, 03:14 PM   #73
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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I'm surprisingly OK with the last act. If the Samurai/robot/thing had been 100 feet tall and destroying downtown Tokyo, I would have thought they'd gone way too far and ridiculous.

But it was still pretty contained for what it was, and the whole story with Yashida was leading up to it anyway so it worked well enough for me.

I loved that neither of the two female characters needed rescuing. In fact, they were the ones who had to save his ass through that whole finale. And they did that with their clothes on, which is more than I can say for Iron Man 3's finale.

(And I loved Iron Man 3. But Mariko & Yukio >>>>>>Pepper Potts in their respective finales).
And neither of them started glowing orange!!

But its Wolverines third act that went silly remember folks

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Old 08-06-2013, 03:42 PM   #74
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I'm not sure I want to see Logan learn martial arts, I dont think it would suit this movie version of the character, doesnt sit well with me.

Training as a Samurai maybe, but martial arts, not for me.
When I used the term "martial arts" I'm meaning "Samurai".

In fact, here is a definition:

Bushidō expanded and formalized the earlier code of the samurai, and stressed frugality, loyalty, mastery of martial arts, and honor to the death.

Since one of the things a Samurai puts first is his Lord, it could have been Yashida's hope that once trained Wolverine would feel some loyalty to Yashida, or maybe it could have been Yashida's attempt to keep Wolverine around long enough so he could take advantage.

Like others have said, there were all of these images of Wolverine with a Samurai sword, yet nothing. Yes he always ultimately needs to pop the claws and go bestial, but the fight could have started as a sword fight. Also, the whole term of ronin could have been developed more...

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Old 08-06-2013, 03:47 PM   #75
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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When I used the term "martial arts" I'm meaning "Samurai".

In fact, here is a definition:

Bushidō expanded and formalized the earlier code of the samurai, and stressed frugality, loyalty, mastery of martial arts, and honor to the death.

Since one of the things a Samurai puts first is his Lord, it could have been Yashida's hope that once trained Wolverine would feel some loyalty to Yashida, or maybe it could have been Yashida's attempt to keep Wolverine around long enough so he could take advantage.

Like others have said, there were all of these images of Wolverine with a Samurai sword, yet nothing. Yes he always ultimately needs to pop the claws and go bestial, but the fight could have started as a sword fight. Also, the whole term of ronin could have been developed more...
Ah, in that case I agree with some of your ideas

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