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Old 08-06-2013, 04:00 PM   #76
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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When I used the term "martial arts" I'm meaning "Samurai".

In fact, here is a definition:

Bushidō expanded and formalized the earlier code of the samurai, and stressed frugality, loyalty, mastery of martial arts, and honor to the death.

Since one of the things a Samurai puts first is his Lord, it could have been Yashida's hope that once trained Wolverine would feel some loyalty to Yashida, or maybe it could have been Yashida's attempt to keep Wolverine around long enough so he could take advantage.

Like others have said, there were all of these images of Wolverine with a Samurai sword, yet nothing. Yes he always ultimately needs to pop the claws and go bestial, but the fight could have started as a sword fight. Also, the whole term of ronin could have been developed more...
It still doesn't feel a natural progression to me that Wolverine would stick around and learn martial arts after rejecting Yashida's offer.

And for Wolverine to be an expert swordsman, good enough to go up against Shingen or anyone else for that matter, would be a stretch.

But I did think he might use a sword, perhaps once. I thought it might be how he killed Yashida at the end, but there would be no logical way for him to be holding the sword at that moment.

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:09 PM   #77
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

^ The idea is that Yashida would not have brought the idea of Wolverine giving him his eternal life at the onset. It would have been more of a "I want to repay you and for you to see the beauty of the way of the samurai". Of course Logan would be like "no thanks", and that's when Yukio would teach him that it would be dishonorable not to take this gift.

He trains, sees the beauty of it, heals emotionally a bit, etc. Then Yashida tries to get him to give up his eternal life. The answer is no, and then things play out.

Logan would have been gifted with a samurai sword at some point (actually he was, wasn't he?), so he would have had it at the beginning of the fight. And it would have shown a lot for him to pull the sword first and not pop the claws. Of course through dishonoable methods Shingen (or Yashida) would have disarmed him, leading to the claw poppage and, well you know...

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:19 PM   #78
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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^ The idea is that Yashida would not have brought the idea of Wolverine giving him his eternal life at the onset. It would have been more of a "I want to repay you and for you to see the beauty of the way of the samurai". Of course Logan would be like "no thanks", and that's when Yukio would teach him that it would be dishonorable not to take this gift.

He trains, sees the beauty of it, heals emotionally a bit, etc. Then Yashida tries to get him to give up his eternal life. The answer is no, and then things play out.

Logan would have been gifted with a samurai sword at some point (actually he was, wasn't he?), so he would have had it at the beginning of the fight. And it would have shown a lot for him to pull the sword first and not pop the claws. Of course through dishonoable methods Shingen (or Yashida) would have disarmed him, leading to the claw poppage and, well you know...
It's an interesting alternative scenario, though I think that adding that to the movie would mean the removal of other things (probably a lot of the Mariko romance build-up) because the focus would be different.

I'm happy with what we did get, rather than trying to create a movie we didn't.

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:47 PM   #79
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^ I am sure they could have added the samurai training aspect by reducing some of the unnessary stuff. For example, did we really need Harada? What was the purpose of that character?

Logan would still have been at his lowest, making the martial arts training difficult, but it would have been able to help him move on. He wouldn't have started as a "badass martial artist". It would have actually been funny to see the master beat Wolverine's rage with unparralled skill. This would have added a whole new dimension to on-screen Wolvie.

I guess what I'm saying is that all of your reasons to not include this don't hold water since you could have still done everything you bring up, which might of actually have been enhanced with Wolvie being trained as a Samurai!

This was a lost opportunity for Wolverine's on-screen character and it wouldn't have been a diversion if it was incorporated into the story properly!
Even if Harada was not in this film, that wouldn't have given them the space to add in an entire subplot about Wolverine training in marital arts. Basically the core of Logan's arc in this film is him dealing with the death of Jean as well as coming to terms with his who he is. This is achieved primarily through his relationship with Mariko, and one of the things I applaud this movie on is allowing that relationship room to really breathe. Adding another story with Logan training with Ogun would have simply been to much and as others have said Logan's past training with Ogun wasn't even mentioned in the mini-series that this film is inspired by. Furthermore, I think its more meaningful to make Logan's relationship with Mariko the thing that helps him move on rather than martial arts training which I don't really see as something that would allow Logan to get rid of this guilt and accept who he is.

I think the whole Ronin aspect is still in the film because when the movie begins Logan is no longer with the X-men. The X-men fought on behalf of their leader for the sake of human and mutant co-existence. Now Logan is no longer with them and is completely rudderless, so in a sense he has become a ronin.

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:49 PM   #80
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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Even if Harada was not in this film, that wouldn't have given them the space to add in an entire subplot about Wolverine training in marital arts. Basically the core of Logan's arc in this film is him dealing with the death of Jean as well as coming to terms with his who he is. This is achieved primarily through his relationship with Mariko, and one of the things I applaud this movie on is allowing that relationship room to really breathe. Adding another story with Logan training with Ogun would have simply been to much and as others have said Logan's past training with Ogun wasn't even mentioned in the mini-series that this film is inspired by. Furthermore, I think its more meaningful to make Logan's relationship with Mariko the thing that helps him move on rather than martial arts training which I don't really see as something that would allow Logan to get rid of this guilt and accept who he is.

I think the whole Ronin aspect is still in the film because when the movie begins Logan is no longer with the X-men. The X-men fought on behalf of their leader for the sake of human and mutant co-existence. Now Logan is no longer with them and is completely rudderless, so in a sense he has become a ronin.
Agreed.

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Old 08-06-2013, 05:06 PM   #81
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

The sword he got from Yashida never came up in a significant way which was a bit odd.

The final Jean sequence was a bit blunt and unnecessary. We could see how he moved on, there was no need to spoon feed us his arc. Also it was odd to see him still pining for Jean after meeting Mariko.

There's some pacing issues with the last act. I wonder how much this will be improved with the extended cut. For one, I always notice the part in the film where Mariko confronts Viper, only to be knocked out almost immediately. She then wakes up only a minute or so later. I found that kind of jarring.

Viper is my biggest complaint. The obvious dubbing is pretty distracting, and she has way too many random power displays. How about holding off until a dramatic moment to reveal them? Say when she is intimidating Harada, or when she attacks Shingen. Damn near every scene with Viper in has her spitting at some guy.

CGI robot is distracting after such a grounded 2/3.

All in all I'm very happy with the film. None of the above break the experience for me.

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Old 08-06-2013, 05:59 PM   #82
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

I didn't like the style of the action. I prefer the action in X2 and X1. This was too quick cut and wasn't realistic. Too many random Yakuza getting tossed into the air by a swipe of the claws.

I didn't like Wolverine losing his healing factor. This is an overused plot device and they could have come up with a better way of using it. This film actually had TWO different methods of taking away Logan's powers.

Wolverine lost his powers but he didn't learn to be more cautious and the film didn't focus on his fighting abilities. After losing his healing powers he was still eating bullets and getting pummeled by yakuza.

When he finally got his healing powers back he pretty much just let Shingen eviscerate him. I would have liked to have seen Wolverine at a disadvantage against the highly Shingen but the tides turn when Wolverine's rage is unleashed.

I look back to the comic when Wolverine fought the Mandarin and the brain washed Psylocke. Psylocke believed she had the advantage because of her telepathy but Wolverine proclaimed that she had never fought a man who's thoughts and actions were one. That's what I wanted to see here.

I didn't have as much of a problem with SS as much as the SS reveal and what followed. Just more cliches that the film could have done without.

For a movie that claimed to be a stand alone story, it lifted a few plot points from it's predecessor. The main offenders being that hot adamantium can cut through adamantium or that adamantium can damage adamantium. Wolverine and Deathstrike exchanged blows in X2 with no permanent damage.

It was in Origins where Wolverine with claws heated by optic blasts was able to decapitate Deadpool who had also gone through the adamantium bonding process. Stryker was also able to penetrate Wolverine's skull with an adamantium bullet.

If they wanted to be shocking and do something that would "change Wolverine forever", I just think there could have been a better way to do it.

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:34 PM   #83
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

Wolverine losing his healing factor has never been seen on screen, so most of the GA has never seen that happened. He's REALLY wants to protect this woman yet he can't do it as well as he could in the past because he's been shot, stabbed, beaten and has a drastically reduced healing factor. That's a great conflict for a film. I had no problem with the action whatsoever and Wolverine is much stronger than a normal man, so the throwing is believable. He nearly died twice from his injuries, so the film didn't ignore it. The big problem with the Deadpool thing (well, there were a lot of problems) was that Cyclops DOES NOT have heat vision, his optic blast are concussive, like getting hit with a blunt object. Deapool using them shouldn't have heated Wolverine's claws, Origins was so inept that they got Scott's powers wrong after the OT did them right. The adamantim bullet was just laughably stupid, the superheated sword that SS uses actually makes sense. Wolverine found a renewed purpose in life, fell in love (I hope we see Mariko again at some point) and will now face his greatest test with renewed determination and strength.

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Old 08-07-2013, 09:42 AM   #84
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

Another one of the things I didn't like was the Silver Samurai reveal. When I first learned which character was Harada I said to myself, "that guy will be the Siver Samurai". Then when I saw that Yashida wanted Wolverine's powers I realized that he was really the bad guy and that his death was fake. But I never expected that they would make the Silver Samurai just some machine that Yashida needed to stay alive. Um... stupid much?

Worse, the moment I saw it move I thought to myself, "Haven't we seen this before". Then I realized that the Silver Samurai was nothing more than a shiny Iron Monger that didn't have flight capability and traded repulsors for a heated sword.

When the Silver Samurai armor opened to reveal Yashida I actually saw in my mind's eye Obadiah Stane sitting in the Iron Monger armor.

Rip off much?

Although the movie was enjoyable, and got many things right, they really missed some good opportunities and worse, had a couple of epic fails with things like the SS and Viper!

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Old 08-07-2013, 09:56 AM   #85
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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Also it was odd to see him still pining for Jean after meeting Mariko.
I can get the rest of your complaints, but you don't just forget about someone you loved and killed just because you meet someone new. It doesn't really work like that.

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Old 08-07-2013, 10:13 AM   #86
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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I can get the rest of your complaints, but you don't just forget about someone you loved and killed just because you meet someone new. It doesn't really work like that.
I suppose the question he is asking though is did Logan really love Jean? This was my problem with her involvement in the story. Logan was the one telling Scott/Cyclops to move on at the start of X3. Now that movie was a cluster-**** but stuff like that makes it hard for me to believe he loved her.

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Old 08-07-2013, 10:17 AM   #87
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

Wolverine tells Jean he loves her right before he kills her in X:TLS. I rewatched the movie before seeing the new one.

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Old 08-07-2013, 10:47 AM   #88
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Saying that the SS mech is a rip off of Iron Monger is simply not true. Stane and Yashida had completely different motives, the mech's purposes were different, the only similarities is that they had mechs, which a lot of movies have. Also, Shingen wore a version of the classic SS armor when he fought Yukio and Wolverine, that was enough for me. Harada being different was fine.

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Old 08-07-2013, 10:48 AM   #89
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

But seriously, they couldn't have Logan use a Katana once, really? That was disappointing.

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Old 08-07-2013, 11:45 AM   #90
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Really doesn't matter if the purpose of the Iron Monger and Samurai armor were different. In the end we had the big baddie being a power hungry dude inside a large mechanized armor.








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Old 08-07-2013, 11:52 AM   #91
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Yeah, and we've had alien armies try to destroy Earth before. That doesn't make TA was a rip off or Mars Attacks or Independence Day. Context is EVERYTHING.

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Old 08-07-2013, 12:08 PM   #92
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^ Yes, we had aliens attacking Earth in the Avengers. But name another super hero movie where a horde of aliens were the main villain?

I don't think there has been...

So we don't compare a super hero movie to a non-super hero movie, do we? So your whole Mars Attacks or Independence Day doesn't hold water...

The point is if the main villain in say Justice League is a horde of aliens then yes, some of us will come to the logical conclusion that it's a bit of a rip off of Avengers. If the next main villain in Batman was some dude that wears a suit that looks like a rhino, well yes we'll logically conclude that it's a rip off of Amazing Spider-man 2.

As you say, much of the issue is how it is portrayed. Since they used a mech suit in Wolverine and had the guy shown in it with his head shown well of course there will be comparisons to Iron Monger, and rightfully so. Especially when it is such a divergence to the comic canon. Making the Silver Samurai a mech... bleah!!!

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Old 08-07-2013, 01:00 PM   #93
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

Yeah its absolutely fair to draw a comparison with IronMan, oh and IronMan2, which kind ripped itself off I guess your saying?

Anyway, lets compare, the mech suit and final battle of IronMan with The Wolverine as you wish to do.

The Iron Monger suit is just a bigger, clunkier, version of the first suit we see in the film, compared TW sleek and stylish, brand new, samurai mech (seriously if you must make a mech suit for your final battle make it look awesome and bad ass like the SS), so TW wins on design.

An actual point to the suit, now what exactly was the point of the mech suit in IM? Was there an actual need for Stane to make this Monger outfit? Or was it just required to have a big fight at the end of the movie? Compare this to the SS mech having two functions:

1. It worked as a life support system for Yashida to live longer
2. It was built with a specific purpose to transfer the mutant ability of Logan into its users body.

So TW wins on function as well as design, hmmm interesting.

Now then the fight itself, IM and Stane threw some cars around, bounced off a few things, went up to the edge of space, yeah ok not bad but nothing amazing. TW again maybe not the greatest finishing fight, but, it had better dialogue and story points during it, it had some shocking moments with the claws destroyed that effects Logan in the long term, had a nice twist of a moment where Mariko ends up saving the hero, going against convention and finally an emotional pay off with Jean that showed that Logan was ready to move on and had achieved redemption. If I am being generous lets call this one a draw.

So, in summary, the SS mech, looks better and has more purpose than the Stane suit with a fight that actually had some surprising moments in it, to make it the clear winner.

So yes TW did rip off the ending of IM............and did it a whole lot better too.

Great comparison, glad you brought it up.

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Old 08-07-2013, 01:14 PM   #94
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^ Agree TW totally wins on look!

Although the Samurai suit was used to keep Yashida alive, it wasn't necessary for that purpose, meaning a bed or stasis unit could have been used instead. The main point was to be able to attack Wolverine (just like Iron Monger was used to attack Ironman) and in this case steal his healing factor (life). So yes, again, TW wins on purpose.

As you point out the end fight in TW wasn't that good. The fight scene in Ironman had them flying, climbing through the ground, shooting repulsor beams, punching, kicking, etc.

I'll agree that the dialogue in TW final fight was better, but the battle itself was better in Ironman.

But totally good point. I would agree that overall TW final fight was better in essence than Ironman. Not in action, but in essence.

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Old 08-07-2013, 02:59 PM   #95
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I can get the rest of your complaints, but you don't just forget about someone you loved and killed just because you meet someone new. It doesn't really work like that.
It's less about the feelings, just that I found that last communication unnecessary. We saw how he had moved on, so there was no need to directly address it. The whole film was (thankfully) about showing not telling, so I don't think we needed that sequence.

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Old 08-07-2013, 05:34 PM   #96
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Wolverine losing his healing factor has never been seen on screen, so most of the GA has never seen that happened. He's REALLY wants to protect this woman yet he can't do it as well as he could in the past because he's been shot, stabbed, beaten and has a drastically reduced healing factor. That's a great conflict for a film. I had no problem with the action whatsoever and Wolverine is much stronger than a normal man, so the throwing is believable. He nearly died twice from his injuries, so the film didn't ignore it. The big problem with the Deadpool thing (well, there were a lot of problems) was that Cyclops DOES NOT have heat vision, his optic blast are concussive, like getting hit with a blunt object. Deapool using them shouldn't have heated Wolverine's claws, Origins was so inept that they got Scott's powers wrong after the OT did them right. The adamantim bullet was just laughably stupid, the superheated sword that SS uses actually makes sense. Wolverine found a renewed purpose in life, fell in love (I hope we see Mariko again at some point) and will now face his greatest test with renewed determination and strength.
Wolverine did lose his healing powers at the end of X1 when Rogue absorbed them which made Wolverine's wounds open up.

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Old 08-07-2013, 06:04 PM   #97
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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Wolverine did lose his healing powers at the end of X1 when Rogue absorbed them which made Wolverine's wounds open up.
Yeah, but in this movie he got to stay conscious (mostly) after that happened.

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Old 08-07-2013, 06:04 PM   #98
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But seriously, they couldn't have Logan use a Katana once, really? That was disappointing.
Well, he did pull Shingen's out of himself. So at least he held it...

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his optic blast are concussive, like getting hit with a blunt object.
Isn't that pretty much the way they affected Victor?

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I think the whole Ronin aspect is still in the film
Well, of course it is. At least the film seems to think so. It's a metaphor, it doesn't have to be an exact recreation of the specifics.


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Old 08-07-2013, 07:05 PM   #99
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

Too little action for a Wolverine film

Too few mutants

No "WOW" moments

Wolverine didn't act like a badass in this film. He didn't talk back as much and he didn't cuss as much.

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Old 08-07-2013, 08:28 PM   #100
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Default Re: What didn't you like about the film?

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Too little action for a Wolverine film

Too few mutants

No "WOW" moments

Wolverine didn't act like a badass in this film. He didn't talk back as much and he didn't cuss as much.
...not sure if serious

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