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Old 08-08-2013, 06:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

Opie you done set off a potential powderkeg.

There's a number of factors to consider when you look at the negative responses to TDKR:

-Bruce quits right after TDK
-No Riddler, Black Mask, Penguin
-Marginalization of the rogues gallery other than Joker and Bane (Nolan's comment about the rest being Joker copycats)
-The structure of the film
-The plot
-Choice of villains
-Rushed revolution
-Characterization of the villains
-Robin
-Less focus on Gotham's voice
-Closing off this series of films to sequels

If you ask me, there's no problem with any of those, except for rushing through Bane's revolution. As BatLobsterRises says, if you like the film, you like it.

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Old 08-08-2013, 09:30 PM   #27
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Eh,this happens all the time.It's the fanboy/internet culture we have.

I remember seeing Origins: Wolverine and thinking "Man,that was good.I really enjoyed it." So I run into a guy I know and I told him I liked the movie.And he was like "Yeah,it was alright." So, I kinda pressured him to tell me why he was pretty unenthusiastic about the film.He couldn't tell me.And I soon realised the "fanboy consensus" online was that the movie was a failure.

So I think the way a film is perceived online, colors the general opinion overall,eventually.People want to be one of the "cool kids",and not be seen beating the drum for what's considered a "bad movie".Me,I could give a crap what people think.I calls em as I sees em.
So when people tell you they liked this movie it's okay, but if they don't it's because of some internet forum collective bad influence?

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Old 08-08-2013, 10:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

I believe it is due to something called "the vocal minority".

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Old 08-09-2013, 02:57 AM   #29
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:13 AM   #30
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Well, iīm glad last year you had The Avengers to entertain you. Much easier to understand.

If you donīt, iīd just to give everyone a glimpse of how bad your understanding about the character is:



Youīre right. Batman shouldnīt care only about the big fish, who are actually responsible for most of the smaller fish existence. He should spend day and night catching all the criminals of a city with 10+ million people. Gotham shouldnīt even need a police. Batman takes care of everything. A kid painting a wall? Batman takes care of it.

How about SWAT Teams? Shouldnīt they be writing traffic tickets?

It swings both ways: on the one hand, what drove this Batman, in this universe, to become active, was the organized crime and the effects it had on the city's crime in general; and it was established as early as in part 2 that he generally believed in "democracy" and was only willing to do what he did as long as the system was still dysfunctional.
Once the bigger fish was gone, and the economy improved I guess (maybe a bit thanks to his help in the aftermath), his retirement was consistent with his character, as well as with his growing frustration with the lines he had to cross in the process... of dealing with the big fish - it wasn't the happy retirement he had wished for (and thus set up as his character trait) in DK, but apart from that still more or less the retirement he had been planning to go into (or was it!).

On the other hand, robberies like the Joe Chill one always happen even without three mafias running a town, because the police, no matter how diligent and functional, isn't always there for prevention/justice - and it wouldn't at all be illogical for *a* Batman (not necessarily the Nolan one) to keep going regardless with that as his primary motivation. And that's where the problem with your frivolous, strawman-filled comment comes in - unless you're a firm believer in the system / "no man should have so much power" principle, there's really no particular reason why you SHOULDN'T continue patrolling the streets even with a perfectly functional police at the ready.
No, it's not about beating up jaywalkers and graffiti maestros - it's about preventing assaults, batteries, murders and worse things (mayor's not talking about wallpainters in his opening speech, you know), and doing his part in this in ADDITION to the police, rather than instead of them. Also, not hunting 1000 of them at once for goodness' sake - just intervening as much as he could, intimidating the rest through (you guessed it) fear... which is exactly what you see happening in TDK's opening montage

Plus he's got no jurismydiction to worry about, and can get away with hacking apart way more poisoned trees than Dirty Harry ever could - and... he's got his superior equipment and technology that he doesn't trust the police with... as established in this very movie, TDKR... WHILE its plot is already running!
So this (new - possibly inspired by the sonar thing in addition to the bomb thing) character trait of his, not trusting the already cleaned up police force, can easily work as a counterbalance to his previous retirement aspirations.
He's sitting there in his cave... still not trusting the cops... hiding precious tools from them... that he could totally use to aid crime prevention, but instead he's sitting in his basement/attic and mopes around in clinical, self-neglecting depression.

Hey, could it be that maybe... he really gave up due to said depression, and not because he thought the naughty wall painters weren't worth the effort? Interpretation!!

And that brings us right back to the problems with this film - one of those, if not the central one every other is dripping and sliding down the hill from, being Bruce's retirement. However, not because "Batman would never give up, man" as that possibility had clearly been set up previously... but because it hadn't been set up previously.
Not this kind of retirement - the depressed, meaningless one, the motivations for which clearly came about way after the TDK credits rolled. The failed energy project, the war wounds that came out of ****ing nowhere. The premature retirement, accepted long before the system became good enough for Bruce to declare that the city didn't "need Batman" now (=in his mind; if it actually was good enough, he might be overcautious, and be guilty of exactly the kind of flaw some people here claim he'd be guilty of if he were continuing stalking the streets; but we're just talking about character motivations here).

Last movie he did talk about leaving, yes - but that's not how the movie ended; while it isn't clearly stated whether the Joker's chaos or Dent's death changed his attitude regarding this issue or not, the tone of that ending montage DEFINITELY spelled something totally different from "goes into sad retirement". Energetic, action packed, darkly optimistic - things still aren't fixed, streets probably need cleaning up, and the police hunting down Batman with evil dogs; and yet he'll be there, the outcast, hated by the population, but still doing what needs to be done.
Who wasn't pumped to see some of that, if not a whole delicious bunch, carried over into the sequel? But no - apparently, a few weeks later, real life intervened, as it does, that enthusiastic fever slowly wayned once Bruce returned back home, realized there was kind of nothing to do really, and depression / daily life (and then depression) took over.

Unrealistic? Certainly not. But this is me filling in the gaps that the movie shouldn't just have filled, but filled up with some good, effective "show don't tell" storytelling and character development, not just kinda thrown at the wall to make the new arc work.
Now, suddenly, Batman is old and weak, and has to "rise up" again - not from the exile so tastily set up in TDK (that one is treated very marginally thoughout the whole movie), but from this new plot device that apparently developed off-screen. Chances are he only loses to Bane for that reason, and not because this scary guy is a force of furious nature menace who's risen from hell (he hasn't), and whose drive and determination trump even Batman's (the best apprentice of Ra's al Ghul!!), enabling him to easily challenge the previously invincible super-apprentice of Ra's al Ghul (just roll with it, it's from the first movie).
You see his speed... his ferocity... comes from the same place as the superhuman strength Bruce was able to develop; the ancient conspiracy society (again, just roll with it) who has learned to use a combination of mental, psychobabbelogical drive and secret techniques, moullded by time and success, in order to make its members excel at combat, strategy and stealth to a degree possibly unmatched by anyone else in the world - and he's been born in darkness to boot! Surely Bat's no match for that... so he needs to fall again, and find new, previously undiscovered strenght in himself, in the same dark place where Bane gained his, in order to rise up to his level, and find a yet even new source of will and vigor in order to finally do the impossible and defeat this demonbear of a man (in video game terms: LoS training = better than everyone, + strong personal motivation = best of the LoS, + moulded by darkness = Bane, + ticking bomb or whatever = TDKR!!) and save Gotham from its darkest day yet... oh wait, he's just old and weakened, and only has to rediscover his survival instincts (which he lost off-screen), in order to do that.

Oops! Apparently, this retirement atrocity doesn't only let down the 2nd movie, but also kinda ruins the impact of its own central conflict... feel the drama and excitement slowly oozing out of your soul yet?


It was stuff like this, along with Alfred's sudden concern for his safety (extending beyond the singular threat of Bane apparently) and reluctance to support him, resulting in their extremely poorly set up fallout, the ending twist doing as much damage to the main plot and Bane's character as it kinda gave it all a new interesting angle, the lazy-feeling "rookie cop takes on an elite ninja's job, uplifting music" conclusion, the phoned-in, again hardly set up not-threeway-romance and, not to forget, a whole bunch of awkward line delivery and hackneyed plot devices such as the "clean slate" that made it an inferior sequel to TDK.
Not worthy of hate by any means, very well-made in general as well as engaging and entertaining (mostly), it was just simply a disappointing, inferior follow-up with some weak, alieanating story decisions - probably in need of a rewrite / retool or two.

Yes, just my opinion obviously, but let's do a thought experiment here - let's imagine the movie HAD been rewritten, rectifying the rough bulk of problems I just rattled down, and making it flow naturally from TDK in really exciting ways (feel free to fill in the blanks here), and the real final version would've been released as an early draft that you could read.
Would you go "aww, what a shame they didn't stay with that one", or would you just kinda acknowledge it with a "yea, still cool, but certainly no TDKR!"? Rounding it off with a quip about how this is the devill while that was practice, maybe?

I kinda strongly feel it'd be the latter - but then again, I'm just some dude.

((Edit: cleaned up sloppy language, and cleared up a few points while at it))


Last edited by justpassinby; 08-12-2013 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:17 AM   #31
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If Blake's name was revealed to be Dick Grayson and it ended with Bruce as Batman looking over the city, everyone would have loved it. This is why I get criticized when I call people purists on here. But the truth hurts.
Um... that would've just reminded them of B&R, I think. And also *****. Lots of *****.

Seriously, most of the criticisms I've seen of this movie were about its cinematic qualities and how it stands up as a follow-up of TDK, not stupid nerdpick ******** like this.
I mean yes, the Robin reference has annoyed many, but I think it was more the concept of it and the in-your-face yet throwaway manner in which it was handled, not that the name was Robin.

So, what now, my truth hurts more? Whatever


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Old 08-09-2013, 12:38 PM   #32
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Eh,this happens all the time.It's the fanboy/internet culture we have.

I remember seeing Origins: Wolverine and thinking "Man,that was good.I really enjoyed it." So I run into a guy I know and I told him I liked the movie.And he was like "Yeah,it was alright." So, I kinda pressured him to tell me why he was pretty unenthusiastic about the film.He couldn't tell me.And I soon realised the "fanboy consensus" online was that the movie was a failure.

So I think the way a film is perceived online, colors the general opinion overall,eventually.People want to be one of the "cool kids",and not be seen beating the drum for what's considered a "bad movie".Me,I could give a crap what people think.I calls em as I sees em.
On another website I remember there was this guy who gave that film a really good review when it came out. He even suggested it was the best of the films in the franchise at that point.

What happened next, you ask?

He was ganged up on by the usual suspects and pressured to recant.

He recanted.

So pathetic!


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Old 08-09-2013, 12:48 PM   #33
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Ehhh, Wolverine... never got the anti-hype about it, either. There were little things all over the place that may have felt a little cheap, but overall it was a very satisfying movie, in my opinion.
Same with X3 - yea, this character kinda gets tossed aside, that arc is too simplistic/undeveloped, but overall? **** yeah.

My favorite's the first one, though. Thick, dark atmosphere and tension, a compact and driving structure, an especially "slick" and cool action style, the delicious, creative body horror and that ****ing haunting score by Michael Kamen... fell in love with it the moment I first saw it on TV, and it's incredibly rewatchable, too

But anyways, off-topic (and also, try putting Gotham's Reckoning over the first Sabretooh fight scene, it fits ).


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Old 08-09-2013, 01:56 PM   #34
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The script could have used another pass or two and other eyes to review. I mean, Bruce Wayne was out and about for 5 years and then becomes a recluse because some Russian guy publishes a research paper about fusion. No one stopped and said, 'ummmm wut' at any point in that process?

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Old 08-10-2013, 04:15 AM   #35
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The script could have used another pass or two and other eyes to review. I mean, Bruce Wayne was out and about for 5 years and then becomes a recluse because some Russian guy publishes a research paper about fusion. No one stopped and said, 'ummmm wut' at any point in that process?
It's more of a gradual process that ends up with Bruce Wayne's inability to do anything. As a philanthropist , as a man who can't move on with his life , and as Batman. His reaction is to shut himself down.

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Old 08-10-2013, 08:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: Lol...if i didnīt know the critics and GAīs score for this movie...

Exactly, it's not like he packed up his bags and "decided" to be a recluse after that moment. He slid into a state of depression when he was rendered completely impotent in his efforts to be useful to society and save the world. In fact it has to be that he spent a significant amount of time on the energy project so it's like all that time and work ends up going to waste. Wouldn't make sense it he got so depressed after one month of work. After five years spent, it's a lot harder to be like "Alright that didn't work out, time to find another project!". That's also 5 years of having something to focus besides his own demons...once that's taken away, the demons come back in full force. Nothing about that setup got an "umm what" from people when I was watching the film.

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Old 08-10-2013, 10:20 AM   #37
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There were lots of people came out of the movie thinking Bruce was a recluse for 8 years due to Rachel. Which to me would have been preferable if this whole lets-bring-in-Howard-Hughes-plot-elements road had to be traveled.

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Old 08-10-2013, 11:13 AM   #38
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It swings both ways: on the one hand, what drove this Batman, in this universe, to become active, was the organized crime and the effects it had on the city's crime in general; and it was established as early as in part 2 that he generally believed in "democracy" and was only willing to do what he did as long as the system was dysfunctional.
Once the bigger fish was gone, and the economy improved I guess (maybe a bit thanks to his help in the aftermath), his retirement was consistent with his character, as well as his growing frustration with the lines he had to cross in the process - only it wasn't the happy retirement he wished for in DK.

On the other hand, robberies like the Joe Chill one always happen even without three mafias running a town, without the police being always there for prevention/justice, and it wouldn't be illogical for A Batman (not necessarily the Nolan one) to keep going regardless with that as his primary motivation. And that's where the problem with your frivolous, strawman-filled comment comes in - unless you're a firm believer in the system / "no man should have so much power" principle, there's really no particular reason why you SHOULDN'T continue patrolling the streets even with a perfectly functional police at the ready.
No, it's not about beating up jaywalkers and graffiti maestros - it's about preventing assaults, batteries, murders and worse things (mayor's not talking about wallpainters in his opening speech, you know), and doing his part in this in ADDITION to the police, rather than instead of them. Also, not to hunt 1000 of them at once - just intervene as much as he could, and intimidate the rest through (you guessed it) fear... as clearly shown in TDK's opening montage.

Plus he's got no jurismydiction to worry about, and can get away with hacking apart way more poisoned trees than Dirty Harry ever could - and... he's got his superior equipment and technology that he doesn't trust the police with... as established in this very movie, TDKR... WHILE its plot is already running!
So this (new - possibly inspired by the sonar thing in addition to the bomb thing) character trait of his, not trusting the already cleaned up police force, can easily work as a counterbalance to his previous retirement aspirations.
He's sitting there in his cave... still not trusting the cops... hiding precious tools from them... that he could totally use to aid crime prevention, but instead he's sitting in his basement/attic and mopes around in clinical, self-neglecting depression.

Hey, could it be that maybe... he really gave up due to said depression, and not because he thought the naughty wall painters weren't worth the effort? Interpretation!!

And that brings us right back to the problems with this film - one of which being Bruce's retirement. However, not because "Batman would never give up, man" as that possibility had clearly been set up previously... but because it hadn't been set up previously.
Not this kind of retirement - the depressed, meaningless one, the motivations for which clearly came about way after the TDK credits rolled. The failed energy project, the war wounds that came out of ****ing nowhere. The premature retirement, accepted long before the system became good enough for Bruce to declare that the city didn't "need Batman" now.

Last movie he did talk about leaving, yes - but that's not how the movie ended; while it isn't clearly stated whether the Joker's chaos changed his attitude regarding this issue or not, the tone of that ending montage DEFINITELY spelled something totally different from "goes into sad retirement". Energetic, action packed, darkly optimistic - things still aren't fixed, streets probably need cleaning up, and the police hunting down Batman with evil dogs; and yet he'll be there, the outcast, hated by the population, but still doing what needs to be done.
Who wasn't pumped to see some of that, if not a whole delicious bunch, carried over into the sequel? But no - apparently, a few weeks later, real life intervened, as it does, that enthusiastic fever slowly wayned once Bruce returned back home, realized there was kind of nothing to do really, and depression / daily life (and then depression) took over.

Unrealistic? Certainly not. But this is me filling in the gaps that the movie shouldn't just have filled, but filled up with some good, effective "show don't tell" storytelling and character development, not just kinda thrown at the wall to make the new arc work.
Now, suddenly, Batman is old and weak, and has to "rise up" again - not from the exile so tastily set up in TDK (that one is treated very marginally thoughout the whole movie), but from this new plot device that apparently developed off-screen. Chances are he only loses to Bane for that reason, and not because this scary guy is the new big guy in town that finally proves a match to him, after long years of invincibility.

Feel the drama and excitement slowly dripping out of you yet?


It was stuff like this, along with Alfred's sudden concern for his safety (extending beyond the singular threat of Bane apparently) and reluctance to support him, resulting in their extremely poorly set-up fallout, the ending twist doing as much damage to the main plot and Bane's character as it kinda gave it all a new interesting angle, the lazy-feeling "rookie cop takes on an elite ninja's job, uplifting music" conclusion, the phoned-in, again hardly set-up not-threeway-romance and, not to forget, a whole bunch of awkward line delivery and hackneyed plot devices such as the "clean slate" that made it an inferior sequel to TDK.
Not worthy of hate by any means, very well-made in general as well as engaging and entertaining (mostly), it was just simply a disappointing, inferior sequel with some weak, alieanating story choices - probably in need of a rewrite / retool or two.

Yes, just my opinion obviously, but let's do a thought experiment here - let's imagine the movie HAD been rewritten, rectifying the rough bulk of problems I just rattled down, and making it flow naturally from TDK in really exciting ways (feel free to fill in the blanks here), and the real final version would've been released as an early draft that you could read.
Would you go "aww, what a shame they didn't stay with that one", or would you just kinda acknowledge it with a "yea, still cool, but certainly no TDKR!"? Rounding it off with a quip about how this is the devil while that was practice, maybe?

I kinda strongly feel it'd be the latter - but then again, I'm just some dude.

Brilliant post, I agree with every word.

I'll never be able to view TDKR as a logical follow up to what occurred after the events if The Dark Knight. There was so much wasted material like actually SHOWING him being hunted but still going for it (and the effects of Gordon "hunting" him) that got pushed aside. And for what? For exposition explaining a Howard Hughes archetype? Or unshown events that conveniently render Bruce AND Batman completely useless?

TDKR and it's plot will always feel like a cop out to me. A big, disgusting waste of opportunity. I would have loved to have been the fly on the wall while Goyer and the Nolan's were developing this damn thing. The finalized movie feels like a first or second early draft where they came together to shoot the **** about ideas, themes and concepts of where they might want to go, not a finalized, polished script that flows fluidly.

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Old 08-10-2013, 11:33 AM   #39
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The 8 years just gave the story a sense of heft and history that was necessary IMO. If you pick up the events where nothing has changed in the aftermath of TDK, that to me is the real copout, because it'd be shying away from allowing the ending of TDK to have the impact that it surely deserved as one of the greatest endings to an action movie this side of Terminator 2. That's why Terminator 3 is so bad, it just undoes the ending immediately and says "nope, doesn't matter, Judgment Day still happens". The ending of TDK was hard-earned, bittersweet "victory" of sorts, so Gotham had to get better or else the ending immediately feels cheapened and not as important as it was made out to be.

We've argued this in circles for a year, and I know people feel the exact opposite about how TDKR cheapened TDK's ending, etc. But it's still really how I feel. Yes, in the end the film ends up serving as a deconstruction of TDK's ending, but with the time jump it still allows TDK's ending to be an 8 year victory. I'm sorry you see it as a "disgusting" waste of opportunity milost, but to be honest...I was never terribly interested in a movie about Batman as a fugitive. It just seemed kind of silly to me that Batman would invite that kind of heat on himself while trying to do his job. I'd feel no sympathy for him because he invited that on himself and chose to lie to Gotham for the sake of giving them a "white knight", and for what? With the way TDKR is setup, I actually do feel sorry for him. Maybe some people aren't comfortable feeling sorry for Bruce like that, I don't know. But it worked for me, I was totally invested from the first moment he limps on screen.

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Old 08-10-2013, 11:49 AM   #40
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The 8 years just gave the story a sense of heft and history that was necessary IMO. If you pick up the events where nothing has changed in the aftermath of TDK, that to me is the real copout, because it'd be shying away from allowing the ending of TDK to have the impact that it surely deserved as one of the greatest endings to an action movie this side of Terminator 2. That's why Terminator 3 is so bad, it just undoes the ending immediately and says "nope, doesn't matter, Judgment Day still happens". The ending of TDK was hard-earned, bittersweet "victory" of sorts, so Gotham had to get better or else the ending immediately feels cheapened and not as important as it was made out to be.

We've argued this in circles for a year, and I know people feel the exact opposite about how TDKR cheapened TDK's ending, etc. But it's still really how I feel. Yes, in the end the film ends up serving as a deconstruction of TDK's ending, but with the time jump it still allows TDK's ending to be an 8 year victory. I'm sorry you see it as a "disgusting" waste of opportunity milost, but to be honest...I was never terribly interested in a movie about Batman as a fugitive. It just seemed kind of silly to me that Batman would invite that kind of heat on himself while trying to do his job. I'd feel no sympathy for him because he invited that on himself and chose to lie to Gotham for the sake of giving them a "white knight", and for what? With the way TDKR is setup, I actually do feel sorry for him. Maybe some people aren't comfortable feeling sorry for Bruce like that, I don't know. But it worked for me, I was totally invested from the first moment he limps on screen.
I agree with everything you said. All of it worked and clicked for me.

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Old 08-10-2013, 11:53 AM   #41
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It swings both ways: on the one hand, what drove this Batman, in this universe, to become active, was the organized crime and the effects it had on the city's crime in general; and it was established as early as in part 2 that he generally believed in "democracy" and was only willing to do what he did as long as the system was dysfunctional.
Once the bigger fish was gone, and the economy improved I guess (maybe a bit thanks to his help in the aftermath), his retirement was consistent with his character, as well as his growing frustration with the lines he had to cross in the process - only it wasn't the happy retirement he wished for in DK.

On the other hand, robberies like the Joe Chill one always happen even without three mafias running a town, without the police being always there for prevention/justice, and it wouldn't be illogical for A Batman (not necessarily the Nolan one) to keep going regardless with that as his primary motivation. And that's where the problem with your frivolous, strawman-filled comment comes in - unless you're a firm believer in the system / "no man should have so much power" principle, there's really no particular reason why you SHOULDN'T continue patrolling the streets even with a perfectly functional police at the ready.
No, it's not about beating up jaywalkers and graffiti maestros - it's about preventing assaults, batteries, murders and worse things (mayor's not talking about wallpainters in his opening speech, you know), and doing his part in this in ADDITION to the police, rather than instead of them. Also, not to hunt 1000 of them at once - just intervene as much as he could, and intimidate the rest through (you guessed it) fear... as clearly shown in TDK's opening montage.

Plus he's got no jurismydiction to worry about, and can get away with hacking apart way more poisoned trees than Dirty Harry ever could - and... he's got his superior equipment and technology that he doesn't trust the police with... as established in this very movie, TDKR... WHILE its plot is already running!
So this (new - possibly inspired by the sonar thing in addition to the bomb thing) character trait of his, not trusting the already cleaned up police force, can easily work as a counterbalance to his previous retirement aspirations.
He's sitting there in his cave... still not trusting the cops... hiding precious tools from them... that he could totally use to aid crime prevention, but instead he's sitting in his basement/attic and mopes around in clinical, self-neglecting depression.

Hey, could it be that maybe... he really gave up due to said depression, and not because he thought the naughty wall painters weren't worth the effort? Interpretation!!

And that brings us right back to the problems with this film - one of which being Bruce's retirement. However, not because "Batman would never give up, man" as that possibility had clearly been set up previously... but because it hadn't been set up previously.
Not this kind of retirement - the depressed, meaningless one, the motivations for which clearly came about way after the TDK credits rolled. The failed energy project, the war wounds that came out of ****ing nowhere. The premature retirement, accepted long before the system became good enough for Bruce to declare that the city didn't "need Batman" now.

Last movie he did talk about leaving, yes - but that's not how the movie ended; while it isn't clearly stated whether the Joker's chaos changed his attitude regarding this issue or not, the tone of that ending montage DEFINITELY spelled something totally different from "goes into sad retirement". Energetic, action packed, darkly optimistic - things still aren't fixed, streets probably need cleaning up, and the police hunting down Batman with evil dogs; and yet he'll be there, the outcast, hated by the population, but still doing what needs to be done.
Who wasn't pumped to see some of that, if not a whole delicious bunch, carried over into the sequel? But no - apparently, a few weeks later, real life intervened, as it does, that enthusiastic fever slowly wayned once Bruce returned back home, realized there was kind of nothing to do really, and depression / daily life (and then depression) took over.

Unrealistic? Certainly not. But this is me filling in the gaps that the movie shouldn't just have filled, but filled up with some good, effective "show don't tell" storytelling and character development, not just kinda thrown at the wall to make the new arc work.
Now, suddenly, Batman is old and weak, and has to "rise up" again - not from the exile so tastily set up in TDK (that one is treated very marginally thoughout the whole movie), but from this new plot device that apparently developed off-screen. Chances are he only loses to Bane for that reason, and not because this scary guy is the new big guy in town that finally proves a match to him, after long years of invincibility.

Feel the drama and excitement slowly dripping out of you yet?


It was stuff like this, along with Alfred's sudden concern for his safety (extending beyond the singular threat of Bane apparently) and reluctance to support him, resulting in their extremely poorly set-up fallout, the ending twist doing as much damage to the main plot and Bane's character as it kinda gave it all a new interesting angle, the lazy-feeling "rookie cop takes on an elite ninja's job, uplifting music" conclusion, the phoned-in, again hardly set-up not-threeway-romance and, not to forget, a whole bunch of awkward line delivery and hackneyed plot devices such as the "clean slate" that made it an inferior sequel to TDK.
Not worthy of hate by any means, very well-made in general as well as engaging and entertaining (mostly), it was just simply a disappointing, inferior sequel with some weak, alieanating story choices - probably in need of a rewrite / retool or two.

Yes, just my opinion obviously, but let's do a thought experiment here - let's imagine the movie HAD been rewritten, rectifying the rough bulk of problems I just rattled down, and making it flow naturally from TDK in really exciting ways (feel free to fill in the blanks here), and the real final version would've been released as an early draft that you could read.
Would you go "aww, what a shame they didn't stay with that one", or would you just kinda acknowledge it with a "yea, still cool, but certainly no TDKR!"? Rounding it off with a quip about how this is the devil while that was practice, maybe?

I kinda strongly feel it'd be the latter - but then again, I'm just some dude.
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:53 AM   #42
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There were lots of people came out of the movie thinking Bruce was a recluse for 8 years due to Rachel. Which to me would have been preferable if this whole lets-bring-in-Howard-Hughes-plot-elements road had to be traveled.
I believe that . But people not paying attention to the movie , isn't really a problem of the picture...

For all the spoon-feed Nolan delivers in this trilogy (and he does !) , it's funny that when he's the most subtle....lots of people simply can't grasp it. Maybe he was right after all .

If you ask me , the thing that needed another pass in Rises is the editing , which i find really average for the Christopher Nolan/Lee Smith collaborations.

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Old 08-10-2013, 11:56 AM   #43
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The 8 years just gave the story a sense of heft and history that was necessary IMO. If you pick up the events where nothing has changed in the aftermath of TDK, that to me is the real copout, because it'd be shying away from allowing the ending of TDK to have the impact that it surely deserved as one of the greatest endings to an action movie this side of Terminator 2. That's why Terminator 3 is so bad, it just undoes the ending immediately and says "nope, doesn't matter, Judgment Day still happens". The ending of TDK was hard-earned, bittersweet "victory" of sorts, so Gotham had to get better or else the ending immediately feels cheapened and not as important as it was made out to be.

We've argued this in circles for a year, and I know people feel the exact opposite about how TDKR cheapened TDK's ending, etc. But it's still really how I feel. Yes, in the end the film ends up serving as a deconstruction of TDK's ending, but with the time jump it still allows TDK's ending to be an 8 year victory. I'm sorry you see it as a "disgusting" waste of opportunity milost, but to be honest...I was never terribly interested in a movie about Batman as a fugitive. It just seemed kind of silly to me that Batman would invite that kind of heat on himself while trying to do his job. I'd feel no sympathy for him because he invited that on himself and chose to lie to Gotham for the sake of giving them a "white knight", and for what? With the way TDKR is setup, I actually do feel sorry for him. Maybe some people aren't comfortable feeling sorry for Bruce like that, I don't know. But it worked for me, I was totally invested from the first moment he limps on screen.
Absolutely

The strange thing is that sentiment of cheapen's and all that when is the same exact writers of both movies. They knew exactly what they wrote and what was TDK's setup. But hey , i've read here , in this boards , that Christopher Nolan didn't understand TDK

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Old 08-10-2013, 11:57 AM   #44
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The 8 years just gave the story a sense of heft and history that was necessary IMO. If you pick up the events where nothing has changed in the aftermath of TDK, that to me is the real copout, because it'd be shying away from allowing the ending of TDK to have the impact that it surely deserved as one of the greatest endings to an action movie this side of Terminator 2. That's why Terminator 3 is so bad, it just undoes the ending immediately and says "nope, doesn't matter, Judgment Day still happens". The ending of TDK was hard-earned, bittersweet "victory" of sorts, so Gotham had to get better or else the ending immediately feels cheapened and not as important as it was made out to be.

We've argued this in circles for a year, and I know people feel the exact opposite about how TDKR cheapened TDK's ending, etc. But it's still really how I feel. Yes, in the end the film ends up serving as a deconstruction of TDK's ending, but with the time jump it still allows TDK's ending to be an 8 year victory. I'm sorry you see it as a "disgusting" waste of opportunity milost, but to be honest...I was never terribly interested in a movie about Batman as a fugitive. It just seemed kind of silly to me that Batman would invite that kind of heat on himself while trying to do his job. I'd feel no sympathy for him because he invited that on himself and chose to lie to Gotham for the sake of giving them a "white knight", and for what? With the way TDKR is setup, I actually do feel sorry for him. Maybe some people aren't comfortable feeling sorry for Bruce like that, I don't know. But it worked for me, I was totally invested from the first moment he limps on screen.
Couldn't agree more

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Old 08-10-2013, 12:24 PM   #45
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We've argued this in circles for a year, and I know people feel the exact opposite about how TDKR cheapened TDK's ending, etc. But it's still really how I feel. Yes, in the end the film ends up serving as a deconstruction of TDK's ending, but with the time jump it still allows TDK's ending to be an 8 year victory. I'm sorry you see it as a "disgusting" waste of opportunity milost, but to be honest...I was never terribly interested in a movie about Batman as a fugitive. It just seemed kind of silly to me that Batman would invite that kind of heat on himself while trying to do his job. I'd feel no sympathy for him because he invited that on himself and chose to lie to Gotham for the sake of giving them a "white knight", and for what? With the way TDKR is setup, I actually do feel sorry for him. Maybe some people aren't comfortable feeling sorry for Bruce like that, I don't know. But it worked for me, I was totally invested from the first moment he limps on screen.
Invite that kind of heat on himself? What?

Who says Batman would even need to be active to be hunted? That is one of TDKR's biggest problems, it puts too much heavy handed impact on Harvey Dent (even more so than The Dark Knight) and it's outcome with the city, but not enough on Batman. All we get from the movie is that Batman is/was a "thug murderous thug" that's been missing since "DAT night 8 years ago", which again, is all exposition! Just like the Tony Stark clean energy project turned nuclear macguffin bomb. Just like John Blake's "I knew from that feel bro". Just like Alfred's "this happened during those 7 years, before Batman".


If they're going to give Gordon and Batman's decision at the end of The Dark Knight so much weight like they do in TDKR to the point of Harvey Dent Days (and ridiculous Acts that makes characters quip about overdue library books) and put so much emphasis on "oh, woe is me, our dear white knight in shining armor fought for justice to the bitter end until that murderous thug broke his neck", then what does that make Batman? A CRIMINAL, a MAN, that killed 5 people, including cops, beat down some SWAT teams, presumably kidnapped Gordon's family, (I would still love to see how that one was explained) and SNAPPED Harvey Dent's neck.

If you're going to put emphasis on the results and outcome then what about the actual aftermath of the event? From what TDKR shows us, Gotham should want blood. ESPECIALLY the GCPD. The only glimpse of "fugitive Batman" is from a viral wanted poster promoting the film! That's it! Okay, so Batman is a "murderous thug", uhhhh, try and catch the guy? That's compelling stuff in and of itself. How is that a cop out, showing that? That's the premise Dark Knight's ending is built upon.

The Dark Knight's end even tells us this. It straight up says it. "You'll hunt me, condemn me", "We'll hunt him, because he can take it". We even see Gordon severing his relationship with Batman in front of ALL OF THE CITY by destroying the signal (which by the way, would show that the signal was indeed used to communicate with Batman and not "malfunctioning equipment", putting more pressure on Gordon to catch Batman).

They're going to go after Batman whether Batman is active or not. Remember "Official policy is to arrest the vigilante known as Batman on sight" and there was a manhunt for him in Begins, how would the city and police feel after they're told that Batman has not only turned against the police but has murdered multiple people, including their beloved Harvey Dent? TDKR conveniently doesn't show or even describe what happen.

I just don't see how that isn't a big deal or "silly". That's ALL we talked about before TDKR was even announced. How can you go over Florence Italy vacations, child orphanage visits, nuclear clean energy, etc. etc but gloss over the fact that Batman is a WANTED man for MURDER and that the guy that is chasing him is the newly christened police Commissioner that WORKED with him before? You can't just abandon that idea, YOU CAN'T. Not when you put so much emphasis on the end result, i.e. Harvey Dent Days, speeches, Blackgate and acts.

What's even worse and more pathetic is the fact that there's a good bit of folks that think Batman is a pretty cool guy in TDKR before even comes back. For some odd reason, orphans love him, even orphans that weren't even around when Batman was active. Some cops I guess love him. That old cop hesitates and quips when Batman shows up, doesn't even really want to hunt him down. Blake? Hell, Blake loves the guy from the get go. The citizens? They don't even seem to really care. What kind of message is that sending? That Batman and Gordon's lie worked, but people just don't care? People don't believe it? Huh? What? Atleast we got Foley I guess.

That's a cop out to me. It's like they wrote themselves into a corner with The Dark Knight's fantastic, crazy ending (which very well could have been the end of the series right then and there) and didn't know how to get themselves out. No more is done with the relationship between Batman and Gordon, they don't even let the audience take in the idea of old friends meeting after 8 long years in the hospital scene. The teaser trailer puts more emotional weight into it than the actual film does! Key ingredients that could be used against the conspiracy and make for some gripping plot are simply gone. Joker, Ramirez, Reese, SWAT guys that heard Gordon's call TO DENT and look at him, anyone involved, just gone.

I guarantee a sequel that touched (even if it was brief like just a prologue or a few scenes) on Batman/Bruce Wayne being hunted by his friend, James Gordon and the city he protects would have been better than, "Bane on a Plane", "Nuclear energy bomb", "Annie Blake and the St. Switthins orphans", "Alfred goes to Italy" exposition. I don't see how anyone could be vehemently against SEEING Bruce go through the dirt and having to pick himself up (RISE). Just skipping 8 years, abandoning all those concepts and showing a miserable, unlikable, hermit that wallows in his own self pity and has taken up archery because the director always wanted to make a Howard Hughes bio-pic is just flat out annoying to me.


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Old 08-10-2013, 12:34 PM   #46
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Foley picked up that thread when he decided to go after the guy that killed Harvey Dent. It made him sound like an opportunistic leech, but he wasn't necessarily a bad guy. After all, he didn't risk the hostages when Bane and his men escaped the SE.

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Old 08-10-2013, 12:37 PM   #47
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Then what really irks me is we never even got to see Gordon put on a facade of "hating" the Batman in the public eye. The guy doesn't say a single negative thing about him during conspiracy crime!

He hesitates to smash a signal, he doesn't speak too highly of Dent save for the Dark Knight ending and goes on about "the truth" at a Harvey Dent Day gathering, he pats a rusted out bat-signal and reminisce about "he was the Batman".

I can't be alone in wanting to see just a glimpse of the "Batman being hunted" angle, can I? I'm not saying a whole film and story dedicated to it, but just a slice? Please? Even when I knew at the 10 minute to 20 minute mark that that wasn't where they were going, I was still looking forward to the hospital meeting with a wounded and hurt Gordon and Batman meeting with his old friend after 8 long years. But it ends no sooner than they meet! We don't get Gordon's initial reaction to his old friend coming through the window, or Bruce's reaction to seeing his old friend beaten down. Nothing. "The Batman, must . . . come back". Well no ****!?! So much for "We'll hunt him, because he can take it, because he's a Dark Knight". Uhhhhh, NOT.

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Old 08-10-2013, 12:43 PM   #48
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It swings both ways: on the one hand, what drove this Batman, in this universe, to become active, was the organized crime and the effects it had on the city's crime in general; and it was established as early as in part 2 that he generally believed in "democracy" and was only willing to do what he did as long as the system was dysfunctional.
Once the bigger fish was gone, and the economy improved I guess (maybe a bit thanks to his help in the aftermath), his retirement was consistent with his character, as well as his growing frustration with the lines he had to cross in the process - only it wasn't the happy retirement he wished for in DK.

On the other hand, robberies like the Joe Chill one always happen even without three mafias running a town, without the police being always there for prevention/justice, and it wouldn't be illogical for A Batman (not necessarily the Nolan one) to keep going regardless with that as his primary motivation. And that's where the problem with your frivolous, strawman-filled comment comes in - unless you're a firm believer in the system / "no man should have so much power" principle, there's really no particular reason why you SHOULDN'T continue patrolling the streets even with a perfectly functional police at the ready.
No, it's not about beating up jaywalkers and graffiti maestros - it's about preventing assaults, batteries, murders and worse things (mayor's not talking about wallpainters in his opening speech, you know), and doing his part in this in ADDITION to the police, rather than instead of them. Also, not to hunt 1000 of them at once - just intervene as much as he could, and intimidate the rest through (you guessed it) fear... as clearly shown in TDK's opening montage.

Plus he's got no jurismydiction to worry about, and can get away with hacking apart way more poisoned trees than Dirty Harry ever could - and... he's got his superior equipment and technology that he doesn't trust the police with... as established in this very movie, TDKR... WHILE its plot is already running!
So this (new - possibly inspired by the sonar thing in addition to the bomb thing) character trait of his, not trusting the already cleaned up police force, can easily work as a counterbalance to his previous retirement aspirations.
He's sitting there in his cave... still not trusting the cops... hiding precious tools from them... that he could totally use to aid crime prevention, but instead he's sitting in his basement/attic and mopes around in clinical, self-neglecting depression.

Hey, could it be that maybe... he really gave up due to said depression, and not because he thought the naughty wall painters weren't worth the effort? Interpretation!!

And that brings us right back to the problems with this film - one of which being Bruce's retirement. However, not because "Batman would never give up, man" as that possibility had clearly been set up previously... but because it hadn't been set up previously.
Not this kind of retirement - the depressed, meaningless one, the motivations for which clearly came about way after the TDK credits rolled. The failed energy project, the war wounds that came out of ****ing nowhere. The premature retirement, accepted long before the system became good enough for Bruce to declare that the city didn't "need Batman" now.

Last movie he did talk about leaving, yes - but that's not how the movie ended; while it isn't clearly stated whether the Joker's chaos changed his attitude regarding this issue or not, the tone of that ending montage DEFINITELY spelled something totally different from "goes into sad retirement". Energetic, action packed, darkly optimistic - things still aren't fixed, streets probably need cleaning up, and the police hunting down Batman with evil dogs; and yet he'll be there, the outcast, hated by the population, but still doing what needs to be done.
Who wasn't pumped to see some of that, if not a whole delicious bunch, carried over into the sequel? But no - apparently, a few weeks later, real life intervened, as it does, that enthusiastic fever slowly wayned once Bruce returned back home, realized there was kind of nothing to do really, and depression / daily life (and then depression) took over.

Unrealistic? Certainly not. But this is me filling in the gaps that the movie shouldn't just have filled, but filled up with some good, effective "show don't tell" storytelling and character development, not just kinda thrown at the wall to make the new arc work.
Now, suddenly, Batman is old and weak, and has to "rise up" again - not from the exile so tastily set up in TDK (that one is treated very marginally thoughout the whole movie), but from this new plot device that apparently developed off-screen. Chances are he only loses to Bane for that reason, and not because this scary guy is the new big guy in town that finally proves a match to him, after long years of invincibility.

Feel the drama and excitement slowly dripping out of you yet?


It was stuff like this, along with Alfred's sudden concern for his safety (extending beyond the singular threat of Bane apparently) and reluctance to support him, resulting in their extremely poorly set-up fallout, the ending twist doing as much damage to the main plot and Bane's character as it kinda gave it all a new interesting angle, the lazy-feeling "rookie cop takes on an elite ninja's job, uplifting music" conclusion, the phoned-in, again hardly set-up not-threeway-romance and, not to forget, a whole bunch of awkward line delivery and hackneyed plot devices such as the "clean slate" that made it an inferior sequel to TDK.
Not worthy of hate by any means, very well-made in general as well as engaging and entertaining (mostly), it was just simply a disappointing, inferior sequel with some weak, alieanating story choices - probably in need of a rewrite / retool or two.

Yes, just my opinion obviously, but let's do a thought experiment here - let's imagine the movie HAD been rewritten, rectifying the rough bulk of problems I just rattled down, and making it flow naturally from TDK in really exciting ways (feel free to fill in the blanks here), and the real final version would've been released as an early draft that you could read.
Would you go "aww, what a shame they didn't stay with that one", or would you just kinda acknowledge it with a "yea, still cool, but certainly no TDKR!"? Rounding it off with a quip about how this is the devil while that was practice, maybe?

I kinda strongly feel it'd be the latter - but then again, I'm just some dude.
Brilliant post. I believed the OP made himself look like a fool and didn't want to give him the satisfaction of replying. I mean, if you don't like a movie do you really have to explain every reason why when you know the person only wants to know so they can try and prove you wrong, opinion vs opinion? That's why I like coming to this board, people disagree but the debates are usually civil and thought provoking.

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Old 08-10-2013, 12:57 PM   #49
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Invite that kind of heat on himself? What?

Who says Batman would even need to be active to be hunted?
Um, a lot of people who have argued that he should have been active and evading the police at the start of the movie say that.

As far as being hunted while inactive...who's to say there wasn't an investigation that led nowhere in 8 years? They don't know who Batman is, they don't have any leads, he could have fled the country by that point for all they know. And besides, it's not like we didn't get an EPIC chase scene with the entire GCPD pursuing Batman over other more dangerous perps, so it's not like bringing him in wasn't shown to be a priority.

milost, seriously...it's a year later. I get that this movie crushed your soul and all, but I feel like we should be past the point of wall of text posts saying the same stuff we were saying months ago. Brevity is your friend, there's no way I'm gonna get sucked into multi-quote battle with you at this point.

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Old 08-10-2013, 01:07 PM   #50
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Um, a lot of people who have argued that he should have been active and evading the police at the start of the movie say that.

As far as being hunted while inactive...who's to say there wasn't an investigation that led nowhere in 8 years? They don't know who Batman is, they don't have any leads, he could have fled the country by that point for all they know. And besides, it's not like we didn't get an EPIC chase scene with the entire GCPD pursuing Batman over other more dangerous perps, so it's not like bringing him in wasn't shown to be a priority.

milost, seriously...it's a year later. I get that this movie crushed your soul and all, but I feel like we should be past the point of wall of text posts saying the same stuff we were saying months ago. Brevity is your friend, there's no way I'm gonna get sucked into multi-quote battle with you at this point.
Mr. Reese. He obviously could have said he was just lying to get attention or whatever.

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