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Old 08-14-2013, 12:56 AM   #451
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Originally Posted by darkangel View Post
Cyclops had an off screen death so somehow can explain it.
And Jean is the Phoenix, and the Phoenix is all about resurrect from the ashes.
Also the scenes of Jean in TW can help Singer to put Scott and Jean back in the movies,as the fans want them back, remember Jean said "I'm all alone here" and Cyclops maybe was sent in the future.
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Cyclops death is off screen and could potentially be explained away rather easily, but I'm not sure it would be believable for him to turn up for a significant amount of the film before any change in the timeline. I don't think there's nearly enough space in the film to excuse Cyclops turning up before any timeline change. You really need most of a movie to explain that away and make it meaningful imo.

At most I think an epilogue cameo showing him alive in an alternate timeline, but I'm not hopeful that's happening without good reason to suspect so.
Cyclops dying off screen doesn't mean anything. Jean Grey, the one who killed him, confirmed it and spent the entire movie as an emotional mess because of it, and Xavier had his psychic bond with Cyclops severed, felt his death, and confirmed the death.

Cyclops is dead.

And while Phoenix rises from the ashes in the comics, she is not a cosmic goddess in the movies. In the movies, she is a normal, mortal mutant like everyone else, who survived her first "death" because her powers kept her alive. But she allowed herself to be killed.

Both of these people are dead, and undoing it at this point is pretty cheesy and low grade storytelling revolving around a deus ex machina.

The only way I really see them coming back is if a future movie involves the Astral Plane, it can be explained away that due to being a telepath, all the people that Jean killed were sent to the Astral Plane, as well as Jean herself, and have them rescued from the Astral Plane.

It's cheesy, but it makes more sense than having them come back just cuz "off screen death! Phoenix! Time travel! HERP DERP!"

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:10 AM   #452
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Time travel = cheesy. Astral plane gibberish not. Ok then...

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:19 AM   #453
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

In the comics,the rule is "If you don't see the body....and even then...."

It's not too difficult to bring Cyke back.

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:27 AM   #454
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Come on guys this is a science fiction movie, they are mutants, anything can be explained. Jean Grey is the only class 5 mutant the potential is limitless and Xavier has enormous talents they can easily bring Cyclops back to life.
A good director with good ideas can do anything.

ps. Its Funny that Jean saved herself frοm tons of water and died by Wolverine's claws

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:45 AM   #455
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Given that Days of Future Past is about righting wrongs, I think it makes far more sense that Cyclops and Jean Grey return as a byproduct of altering the past rather than having them survive on the Astral Plane for 10 years. I'm not even sure Cyclops could survive on the Astral Plane, as it's a place typically reserved for powerful psychics, not to mention he doesn't have a body to return to afterward.

Also, the sudden revelation of the Astral Plane as a means of possible survival reminds me too much of the questionable storytelling found in The Last Stand, like the reveal of mutant class levels and the only explanation for Jean's survival being that she wraps herself in a cocoon of telekinetic energy. No thanks.

If the means are already present in Days of Future Past via time travel, there is no need to further complicate things by adding even more outlandish mechanisms to the film.

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:45 AM   #456
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

You can't do just anything though. The movies still have their own inner logic despite being a sci-fi film. Jean is incapable of resurrection. She didn't really die herself in X2 (and she wasn't in the white hot room in The Wolverine).

That's why I think the only option left is an altered timeline where some of the previous events didn't happen. Otherwise we're left with hand wavey nonsense that completely dismissing the importance of anything that happened in X3. I know many don't think it's a great film, but I don't think it's a good idea to devalue what is there by saying it's now something else than what was presented at the time.

In Cyclops case I could make an exception with a good story to back it up because it was never really confirmed by anyone in that movie.

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Old 08-14-2013, 03:54 AM   #457
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Yes, I agree the only option is an altered timeline. I'm not sure why people are arguing otherwise. As far as the films are concerned, Cyclops and Jean Grey are dead post The Last Stand, and unless James Marsden and Famke Janssen have been hiding under a rock, I think their noticeable lack of presence in Montreal means they're not going to have sizable roles in this film, if at all.

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Old 08-14-2013, 04:17 AM   #458
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Singer allegedly talked to Cameron about time travel and the latter was impressed. That means the time travelling aspects of DoFP may hold some surprises for us.

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Old 08-14-2013, 05:28 AM   #459
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Given that Days of Future Past is about righting wrongs, I think it makes far more sense that Cyclops and Jean Grey return as a byproduct of altering the past rather than having them survive on the Astral Plane for 10 years. I'm not even sure Cyclops could survive on the Astral Plane, as it's a place typically reserved for powerful psychics, not to mention he doesn't have a body to return to afterward.

Also, the sudden revelation of the Astral Plane as a means of possible survival reminds me too much of the questionable storytelling found in The Last Stand, like the reveal of mutant class levels and the only explanation for Jean's survival being that she wraps herself in a cocoon of telekinetic energy. No thanks.

If the means are already present in Days of Future Past via time travel, there is no need to further complicate things by adding even more outlandish mechanisms to the film.
Why is it that you dont like this part of the movie. In the comics the Pheonix did the same thing to Jean,when the Avengers I believe found her cocoon at the bottom of the lake.

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Old 08-14-2013, 08:19 AM   #460
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Now that Xavier is back, I think any major character dispatched by the Dark Phoenix has a chance of returning. Whatever explaination they come up with for Prof. X, I am sure there will be some elements of cheese. While I don't think Marsden will have more than a cameo in the movie, the movie will need to devote time explaining how he came back as well (assuming that's the case). So unless they can merge that explanation along with Charles' return, then I am not sure it is even worth it to go down that road. If Cyclops gets a meatier role, 10-15 minutes worth, it is most likely the result of an altered timeline. In the off chance that Cyke survived the events of Alkali Lake, you have to explain what he's been up to all that time (10 years post TLS). Some ideas to throw out:

1. He lost his glasses in his last appearance with Jean. So if he didn't die, he'd still be blind and totally unaware of what is going on around him.
2. He was probably scooped up by military forces or he took shelter somewhere, while the events of TLS unfolded. Or he was kidnapped by another mutant/antagonist to be examined.
3. He stayed in hiding for some time. With Storm running the school, maybe he didn't feel the need to return. There was also no need to take revenge on Magneto, since he was powerless. Or maybe he took the cure himself to regain his vision, and then was placed in a mutant prison once his powers returned.

Again, I'm not advocating they go down that road. But at the same time, a cameo appearance seems kinda underwhelming. If both Jean/Cyke return at the end in an alternate future, then it sort of has that happy ending vibe, but it seems rather contrived to me.


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Old 08-14-2013, 08:27 AM   #461
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Now that Xavier is back, I think any major character dispatched by the Dark Phoenix has a chance of returning. Whatever explaination they come up with for Prof. X, I am sure there will be some elements of cheese. While I don't think Marsden will have more than a cameo in the movie, the movie will need to devote time explaining how he came back as well (assuming that's the case). So unless they can merge that explanation along with Charles' return, then I am not sure it is even worth it to go down that road. If Cyclops gets a meatier role, 10-15 minutes worth, it is most likely the result of an altered timeline. In the off chance that Cyke survived the events of Alkali Lake, you have to explain what he's been up to all that time (10 years post TLS). Some ideas to throw out:

1. He lost his glasses in his last appearance with Jean. So if he didn't die, he'd still be blind and totally unaware of what is going on around him.
2. He was probably scooped up by military forces or he took shelter somewhere, while the events of TLS unfolded. Or he was kidnapped by another mutant/antagonist to be studied.
3. He stayed in hiding for some time. With Storm running the school, maybe he didn't feel the need to return. There was also no need to take revenge on Magneto, since he was powerless. Or maybe he took the cure himself to regain his vision, and then was placed in a mutant prison once his powers returned.

Again, I'm not advocating they go down that road. But at the same time, a cameo appearance seems kinda underwhelming. If both Jean/Cyke return at the end in an alternate future, then it sort of has that happy ending vibe, but it seems rather contrived to me.
if cyclops is alive still then by that logic it would mean cyclops has been away for 10 years

i think singer will stick to the idea cyclops is dead though tbh

as for time travel bringing them back, i have never fully thought you could do that very easy and have the audience care, as an end cameo could come across as cheesy fan service very easy with very little impact, there isn't really a simple way to explain how time travel fixed these turn of events

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Old 08-14-2013, 08:35 AM   #462
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Time travel = cheesy. Astral plane gibberish not. Ok then...
As a means of resurrecting characters just cuz... yes.

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You can't do just anything though. The movies still have their own inner logic despite being a sci-fi film. Jean is incapable of resurrection. She didn't really die herself in X2 (and she wasn't in the white hot room in The Wolverine).

That's why I think the only option left is an altered timeline where some of the previous events didn't happen. Otherwise we're left with hand wavey nonsense that completely dismissing the importance of anything that happened in X3. I know many don't think it's a great film, but I don't think it's a good idea to devalue what is there by saying it's now something else than what was presented at the time.

In Cyclops case I could make an exception with a good story to back it up because it was never really confirmed by anyone in that movie.
It was confirmed though. By Jean Grey and by Xavier both. 2 people confirmed that Scott was dead. Both of those people were the people that would have psychic bonds with him, one of which was the woman he loved that actually killed him. He's dead.

You are right - despite being a sci-fi movie these films still have a scene of inner logic, which is why I don't want Cyclops back.

When you toss out that logic is when you create problems... and well... become a comic book

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Old 08-14-2013, 09:07 AM   #463
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

You can still change the timeline of the OT at any point ensuing from the end of 1973 to the start of the OT. It just doesn't have to happen in this film. Wolverine could drop some hints to Xavier. Or maybe his future mind gets stuck in 1973 and he's there permanently. Then the OT is completely contradicted. I don't see that happening, but if Logan were to indicate a portent involving future Jean going crazy, Xavier would definitely do things differently, and that's when you could see a new rebooted timeline surface in FC3.

So maybe they don't want to completely contradict everything in DoFP. But if DoFP makes a billion at the box office and they move forward with FC3 and X-5, then they could definitely change the timeline to bring back bankable characters like Jean and Cyke, possibly Storm if she dies in DoFP. So maybe Xavier doesn't go through with the mind blocks in FC 3 and the Phoenix manifests more naturally. Maybe the X-Men and the Brotherhood ally with each other in the future to take on Apocalypse and/or more Sentinels. It would just suck having to wait another 4-5 years to see that happen.


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Old 08-14-2013, 09:08 AM   #464
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Why did nobody tell me that Lauren Shuler Donner is trying to get Jean back... check out her twitter

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Old 08-14-2013, 10:19 AM   #465
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Famke Janssen Reports Burglary at New York Apartment

The New York Police Department is investigating a burglary at actress Famke Janssenís Manhattan penthouse.
Police say the X-Men actress told officers that when she came home Saturday, she found a childrenís book that didnít belong to her near her bed.
Police say the book, The Lonely Doll, was on a shelf beside her bed. Itís about a doll that wants to play with someone and is friended by two teddy bears.

Police say there was no sign of forced entry and the apartment wasnít in disarray. It wasnít clear if anything was taken.

Janssen told authorities sheís the only one with access to her penthouse.
Police say the investigation into the burglary continues.
Janssen plays telepath Jean Grey in the X-Men franchise. She played a Bond girl in GoldenEye.
From Entertainment Weekly

...WTF




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Old 08-14-2013, 10:53 AM   #466
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Some crazy fanboy broke in and planted that book there most likely. Way to go psylockolussus.

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Old 08-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #467
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Yes, I agree the only option is an altered timeline. I'm not sure why people are arguing otherwise. As far as the films are concerned, Cyclops and Jean Grey are dead post The Last Stand, and unless James Marsden and Famke Janssen have been hiding under a rock, I think their noticeable lack of presence in Montreal means they're not going to have sizable roles in this film, if at all.
this is what i suggested earlier

i have a feeling that the movie will end with Wolverine coming back to an altered present timeline in which Cyclops and Jean are still alive

perhaps even some events from Origins will be changed as well

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Old 08-14-2013, 01:07 PM   #468
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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this is what i suggested earlier

i have a feeling that the movie will end with Wolverine coming back to an altered present timeline in which Cyclops and Jean are still alive

perhaps even some events from Origins will be changed as well

If Wolverine comes back and things are changed, will HE remember everything? If so, that makes The Wolverine still in continuity 100% for Logan the character.

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Old 08-14-2013, 01:44 PM   #469
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Regardless of what Wolverine remembers, if that's the scenario at the end of DoFP, it means the battle witnessed in the OT never really happened. What else can you infer if that's the situation presented? Means Jean never became Dark Phoenix going on to kill everyone, and Magneto probably didn't escalate the war to the level witnessed in the OT. So if that's the case, that leaves some gaping holes in the saga that need to be filled. That's why I don't see that scenario on the table.

People cannot dismiss this scenario either. Magneto's, "Stop this war before it begins," implies that scenario could very well play out, augmented by reports of Marsden on the set.


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Old 08-14-2013, 01:57 PM   #470
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Singer could use time travel to bring jean and scott back but as i have said before it could easy feel like confusing,forced and cheesy fan service if they just appear in a cameo just for the sake of it

if they do have a cameo at the end of DOFP then in my opinion they should do a FC sequel before X4 to explain the changes in this new timeline and different decisions made, like maybe Xavier doesn't hold back jeans powers and helps her control them which in the long run would change the events and keep them alive

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Old 08-14-2013, 02:09 PM   #471
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Another thing that doesn't make sense from a business perspective, is scouting out young talent to fill these roles of Cyke/Jean/Storm, only to dispatch them in favor of the OT cast in X-4/5. That would seem like a waste. Of course most of the FC cast was dumped after DoFP, but they held on to the the actors they had to have, notably JLaw and Hoult. I don't want to see Jean/Cyke/Storm relegated to FC teeny bopper treatment. Jean would have to be the lead female in a FC 3 movie. You want an actress with talent. You could carry those actors into an AoA movie and film a lot of backstory, flashbacks, and what not, but I don't think they'd be able to play their older versions. Could you go from FC3 in 2017 to an AoA in 2020 or 2021, and forward the timeline 20-30 years with the same actors? Not sure that would be practical, even with makeup and CGI.


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Old 08-14-2013, 03:17 PM   #472
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Another thing that doesn't make sense from a business perspective, is scouting out young talent to fill these roles of Cyke/Jean/Storm, only to dispatch them in favor of the OT cast in X-4/5. That would seem like a waste. Of course most of the FC cast was dumped after DoFP, but they held on to the the actors they had to have, notably JLaw and Hoult. I don't want to see Jean/Cyke/Storm relegated to FC teeny bopper treatment. Jean would have to be the lead female in a FC 3 movie. You want an actress with talent. You could carry those actors into an AoA movie and film a lot of backstory, flashbacks, and what not, but I don't think they'd be able to play their older versions. Could you go from FC3 in 2017 to an AoA in 2020 or 2021, and forward the timeline 20-30 years with the same actors? Not sure that would be practical, even with makeup and CGI.
Unless they bring the younger versions into the future, like All-New X-Men did with its time travel story.

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Old 08-14-2013, 05:39 PM   #473
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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she found a children’s book that didn’t belong to her near her bed.
Police say the book, The Lonely Doll, was on a shelf beside her bed. It’s about a doll that wants to play with someone and is friended by two teddy bears.
OK, the Brotherhood has gone too far.
Poor Famke

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Old 08-14-2013, 09:07 PM   #474
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I just find it weird that since she found this one book, she reports a burglary. As indicated in the write-up, the apartment was not in disarray.

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Old 08-14-2013, 09:13 PM   #475
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Yeah it's more like breaking and entering but if it doesn't belong to her and no one gave it to her to her knowledge I would call the police about that.

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