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View Poll Results: Which is better?
The Dark Knight 125 57.34%
The Avengers 93 42.66%
Voters: 218. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-17-2013, 12:14 PM   #51
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

There are others as well, like Zodiac and Good Night and Good Luck that I think are comparable to TDK.

Alien, if you count Harry Dean Stanton.

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Old 08-17-2013, 12:30 PM   #52
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

A lot of conjecture.

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Old 08-17-2013, 02:34 PM   #53
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

Crap, I really can't choose between these two. Each represent what I love most about Superhero flicks. Both 10's in my book and top of their game.

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Old 08-17-2013, 02:35 PM   #54
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

Although i was the one making the poll , i cant help but say how ridiculous it is.

It's cinema in complete classes apart. I gotta say with time i feel TDK might be Nolan's worst film in the bat-trilogy , but its still miles ahead of almost anything in the genre.

Avengers is a bad film in comparison with the other Marvel productions, which is quite a feat considering how bad most of them are.


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Old 08-17-2013, 03:07 PM   #55
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
jmc says it very well. And despite his own preference does a great job describing why they are both the best of the best.


Personally I see it like this:
Best villain: Ledger > Hiddleston
Best hero: Downey Jr/Hemsworth/Ruffalo > Bale
Best plot: Joker's chaos > Loki's army
Best battles: Hulk vs Thor, Iron Man vs Thor, Chitauri vs Avengers > ... Batman vs Joker? Scarecrow? Two Face?
Best supporting cast: Alfred, Gordon, Fox, Dent > Pepper, Coulson, Hill, Fury
Best visuals: Avengers by a substantial margin (being 4 years newer)
Best writing: Nolans' epic emotion = Whedon's witty dialogue
Greatest potential: The Dark Knight Rises vs MCU Phase 2 and 3. we'll see who wins.

I know why pure comic fans choose The Avengers. I know why pure film buffs choose The Dark Knight. What I don't know, is which I prefer.
Best Story/Plot: The Dark Knight
Best Hero: Bruce Wayne/Batman
Best Villain: Joker
Best Supporting Cast: The Dark Knight
Best Fights/Battles: The Avengers
Best Visuals: The Avengers
Best Music: The Dark Knight

The Dark Knight wins for me.

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Old 08-17-2013, 03:11 PM   #56
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
I always knew this day would come.



And the answer is most clearly TDK. It is not only the best of the two, but by far the best the genre has had to offer. It will be remembered as a true classic long after the archetypes and special effects of the other and the many, many others out there fade. Count on it.

IT may be an excellent film according to many but it marginalizes its connection to the genre rather than embraces it. I don't think the Avengers will fade away before it. The Avengers has the advantage of it combining the elements of a shared universe and nothing had really been done like that before.

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Old 08-17-2013, 03:14 PM   #57
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Originally Posted by Tequilla View Post
Although i was the one making the poll , i cant help but say how ridiculous it is.

It's cinema in complete classes apart. I gotta say with time i feel TDK might be Nolan's worst film in the bat-trilogy , but its still miles ahead of almost anything in the genre.

Avengers is a bad film in comparison with the other Marvel productions, which is quite a feat considering how bad most of them are.
Personally I don't ( really honestly) don't see all the wonderful stuff in the Dark Knight. It's flaws to which others who really embrace the film can look past are like an albatross to me when I watch the film because it doesn't offer me anything to make me want to ignore them. The Avengers understands its space in the genre so much better than the Dark knight gets Batman for me.


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Old 08-17-2013, 03:20 PM   #58
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Not to pick a fight on subjectivity, but really? It is more tightly woven in narrative? The Dark Knight is an (arguably) flawless game of constant ratcheting tension that is in a perpetual state of third act climax for nearly all of its 2.5 hour running time. It is precisely written and edited. The Avengers was top heavy on scenes that felt added on for exposition or character filler set-pieces (ex: Iron Man fixing a turbine for 20 minutes, Agent Hill in a random car chase).

And I really do not think any character in The Avengers is as richly drawn as the Joker, Harvey Dent, Batman or James Gordon. I just do not see it.

You obviously saw very very very different versions than I did. Anyone who says this isn't incredible subject just needs to hear you precisely and flawlessly stuff then listen to one of my very long rant.

It just seems the bad or illogical stuff in the Dark knight is below your radar or doesn't matter to you and it communicated the good stuff to you where it ( pretty much completely ) failed for me and for you this seems true of the Avengers.

I'm actually kind of bitter about this. I want the blasted Batman film Begins hinted might be possible. I am so happy for the reboot and in whose hands it is.

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Old 08-17-2013, 03:31 PM   #59
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THE DARK KNIGHT elevates the genre to pinnacles of quality never before seen in the industry and that no one ever thought possible.

It gave a fresh take on the aesthetics of CBM's which allowed the entire genre to branch out and become more diverse rather than become stuck in the tired, stale, one-note tone that films like the Avengers and the like bring to the table.

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Old 08-17-2013, 03:34 PM   #60
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THE DARK KNIGHT elevates the genre to pinnacles of quality never before seen in the industry and that no one ever thought possible.

It gave a fresh take on the aesthetics of CBM's which allowed the entire genre to branch out and become more diverse rather than become stuck in the tired, stale, one-note tone that films like the Avengers and the like bring to the table.

Yeah just like Watchmen did. I disagree on a primal scream of just not appreciating the actual genre level as well as pretending something is deeper than it really is.

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Old 08-17-2013, 03:51 PM   #61
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
I always knew this day would come.



And the answer is most clearly TDK. It is not only the best of the two, but by far the best the genre has had to offer. It will be remembered as a true classic long after the archetypes and special effects of the other and the many, many others out there fade. Count on it.
Absolutely. The Dark Knight will be to the early 21st Century superhero film what Frankenstein/Bride of Frankenstein were to the monster film genre of the 30s and 40s. It will still be well known and popular a century from now.

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Old 08-17-2013, 04:25 PM   #62
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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I'm actually kind of bitter about this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Squaremaster316 View Post
THE DARK KNIGHT elevates the genre to pinnacles of quality never before seen in the industry and that no one ever thought possible.

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Old 08-17-2013, 04:37 PM   #63
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Yeah just like Watchmen did. I disagree on a primal scream of just not appreciating the actual genre level as well as pretending something is deeper than it really is.
The Dark Knight pushed the norms of the comic film genre. Let me count the ways: The hero's love interest decides that she doesn't want to be with him. The heroes' ambition came back to bite them in the ass. Big time: not only does the Rachel love die (and prior to this, she was her own character who made her own decisions), but a formerly heroic character is revealed to be a psycopath with no qualms about holding his ally's family at gunpoint. Finally, the villain: he's not a campy menace nor a 1-dimensional Snidely Whiplash. The Joker is a nihilist who has decided to strike back at a system that he believes has wronged him. His actions are appropriately brutal, and Nolan pulled no punches there. Thus, the Dark Knight has established itself as a revolutionary film in the comic book genre. It demands that other comic films be allowed to develop and flow naturally, rather than fitting comfortably into the same old mold.

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Old 08-17-2013, 08:31 PM   #64
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There's two schools of thought going on, those who feel these films should be comic booky and those who are perfectly fine with the films trying to do more. Lets look at the 'comic booky' thing - how exactly are we defining this? Is it all about the fun factor? Comics books aren't always fun, in fact more often than not they've actually got a solid story as the foundation for what's going on. Some of the best stories written for the page are about as fun as a kick to the groin. Comic books are a medium, they're not a genre.

The better term to use is 'superheroes'. What is a superhero? In basic terms it's someone who develops extraordinary abilities and uses it for good. The thing about that synopsis is that it's broad. There are films which do nothing more than stick to that synopsis, which is perfectly fine, however if every film was to be like that the genre never evolves. Enter Batman Begins, it really was the first film in recent times to try its hand at redefining what a superhero is, and more importantly what it means to be a superhero. It may not have re-written the rulebook but it made a very compelling argument that there's more here than meets the eye. When the storm that was TDK hit 3 year later suddenly the rule book was thrown entirely out the window, instead of just a superhero movie we had a crime drama, a genuine crime drama. Up until that point everyone was happy to sit comfortably in the costume and villains sandbox, but TDK shook the establishment and those tremors are still being felt to this day.

Thing people need to realise now is that the 'superhero' movie as we've known it is becoming extinct. The Avengers may be the pinnacle of a pure superhero movie, and perhaps the final time we will see such an unashamedly pure movie like it within its genre. The first film after it, Iron Man 3, is almost a complete 180 in terms of style and tone to not only Avengers but the preceding IM movies, it's not longer just a superhero film, it's feels more like a buddy cop action flick, and unsurprisingly it divided fans. Thor 2 looks far more like a proper fantasy movie now than it's first film ever did, and from all reports CA2 is more Bourne Identity like than its predecessor, and that's the influence from TDK coming into play, for without that movie and the film before it to elevate the genre there isn't going to be the drive to do anything really different within the genre. It may have happened eventually, but it wouldn't be now. Without Batman Begins and TDK we don't get Iron Man, Man of Steel, Amazing Spider-man, Star Trek, Casino Royale, Skyfall, and probably even Avengers, or at least not in the way they were released.

If TDK isn't what you want in a superhero movie then that's fine, if you want more colourful characters and a simpler plot then loving Avengers or Iron Man more is fine. I know people are going to scream to the high heavens that TDK influence wasn't as big as some make it out to be, and will debate against just how much it redefined the genre, but I honestly think if you say so you're letting how you feel about the movie get in the way of the reality of what's going on. TDK changed perspectives, and those changes are still being felt today.

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Old 08-17-2013, 09:23 PM   #65
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

The Dark Knight

It's still the second best superhero film I've seen.

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Old 08-17-2013, 10:58 PM   #66
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

They're two very different kinds of movies, so it almost seems an unfair comparison to me. But, being completely aware of my bias as a lifelong Bats fan, I have to say TDK. It's the Batman movie that I always wanted. That being said, it's not a fun movie at all... it's very depressing and if I had children, I wouldn't let them watch it until they were at least 12. I wouldn't have a problem letting a smaller kid watch Avengers.

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Old 08-17-2013, 11:28 PM   #67
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
You find "2.5 hour... perpetual state of third act climax" to be a winning factor? I'd argue that many see the majority of The Avengers as a perpetual state of climax as well. At least from the moment Hawkeye attacks the Hellicarrier. To which many would complain is an issue in The Avengers. That is, that there is no place to take a breath.

I respect The Avengers just as much as I respect The Dark Knight. And if The Avengers were winning this poll I imagine I'd feel inclined to defend TDK. But since its not, I have this to say:

The Avengers doesn't even risk focusing on any forced or unforced love story, which is a personal plus for me. Nat/Clint is far too ambiguous and Pepper is merely a fleeting characterization for Tony Stark. Whereas The Dark Knight feels obligated to have this Rachel Dawes love triangle in order to ground Bale's Wayne and eventually make him all the more lonely. Which is fine, unless you didn't pay to see a movie about a love story.

As far as richly drawn characters (of which TDK is most assuredly full of), I'd definitely (sort of agree) that Loki is one of the few who shines out of the pack in The Avengers. But I do appreciate those who consider "The Avengers" as a team to be a richly drawn character in itself. One with inner turmoil and one who, together, is ultimately triumphant over an insurmountable evil. And finally I'd give the descriptor of "richly drawn" to the spy of spies, Nick Fury. He is perfectly shady and despicably realistic as The Avengers' catalyst (especially after learning of Coulson's survival). But he's still very likable, as only Sammy J can be.

And to anyone who says no one in the film has a character arc: up until May 2012 I wonder if you realize Tony Stark never had a moment of self sacrifice the way Banner, Rogers and Thor had in their respective solo films. Stark finishes his very first arc in The Avengers. So watch it again if you missed that.
I feel like there is never a wasted second in TDK and it is always building. The Avengers has a lot of lulls and moments built to isolate characters (example Iron Man and the propellor). Even the end does that with Captain America going into the diner and Hawkeye playing pointman, essentially removing them from the more interesting action. Never mind entire sequences put in for no reason other than to check off a box, like the car chase at the beginning.

I will agree that Rachel as a love interest is tacked on...in Batman Begins. In TDK, it is crucial to the story and used quite well, though the recasting will always be a franchise problem.

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Old 08-17-2013, 11:30 PM   #68
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

I would like to add that those who were annoyed that TDK "grounds' it too much or isn't "comic book" enough, that I strongly disagree.

Nolan distills Batman, Joker, Harvey Dent, Gordon, etc. down to the essence and realizes what makes the Batman mythos so great ONSCREEN completely on cinema's terms. Nearly every facet about these characters that I love (though there are quibbles like more detection for example) is there and realized in the confines of what makes filmmaking special for a perfect marriage of character and medium.

The Avengers looks like a comic book onscreen. That is cool, but it also gives it a stilted feeling that will always keep the viewer at arm's length. It is great that special effects now allow any vision to be put onscreen. However, the more removed from what makes movies movies that it becomes...the more trivialized it risks becoming. If that makes sense.

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Old 08-17-2013, 11:49 PM   #69
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

Angst and "deep plot twists". Its almost become satire unto itself.

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Old 08-17-2013, 11:51 PM   #70
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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There's two schools of thought going on, those who feel these films should be comic booky and those who are perfectly fine with the films trying to do more. Lets look at the 'comic booky' thing - how exactly are we defining this? Is it all about the fun factor? Comics books aren't always fun, in fact more often than not they've actually got a solid story as the foundation for what's going on. Some of the best stories written for the page are about as fun as a kick to the groin. Comic books are a medium, they're not a genre.

The better term to use is 'superheroes'. What is a superhero? In basic terms it's someone who develops extraordinary abilities and uses it for good. The thing about that synopsis is that it's broad. There are films which do nothing more than stick to that synopsis, which is perfectly fine, however if every film was to be like that the genre never evolves. Enter Batman Begins, it really was the first film in recent times to try its hand at redefining what a superhero is, and more importantly what it means to be a superhero. It may not have re-written the rulebook but it made a very compelling argument that there's more here than meets the eye. When the storm that was TDK hit 3 year later suddenly the rule book was thrown entirely out the window, instead of just a superhero movie we had a crime drama, a genuine crime drama. Up until that point everyone was happy to sit comfortably in the costume and villains sandbox, but TDK shook the establishment and those tremors are still being felt to this day.

Thing people need to realise now is that the 'superhero' movie as we've known it is becoming extinct. The Avengers may be the pinnacle of a pure superhero movie, and perhaps the final time we will see such an unashamedly pure movie like it within its genre. The first film after it, Iron Man 3, is almost a complete 180 in terms of style and tone to not only Avengers but the preceding IM movies, it's not longer just a superhero film, it's feels more like a buddy cop action flick, and unsurprisingly it divided fans. Thor 2 looks far more like a proper fantasy movie now than it's first film ever did, and from all reports CA2 is more Bourne Identity like than its predecessor, and that's the influence from TDK coming into play, for without that movie and the film before it to elevate the genre there isn't going to be the drive to do anything really different within the genre. It may have happened eventually, but it wouldn't be now. Without Batman Begins and TDK we don't get Iron Man, Man of Steel, Amazing Spider-man, Star Trek, Casino Royale, Skyfall, and probably even Avengers, or at least not in the way they were released.

If TDK isn't what you want in a superhero movie then that's fine, if you want more colourful characters and a simpler plot then loving Avengers or Iron Man more is fine. I know people are going to scream to the high heavens that TDK influence wasn't as big as some make it out to be, and will debate against just how much it redefined the genre, but I honestly think if you say so you're letting how you feel about the movie get in the way of the reality of what's going on. TDK changed perspectives, and those changes are still being felt today.
Brilliant post

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:49 AM   #71
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

The Avengers without question, to me The Dark Knight is a great drama/crime movie while The Avengers is a great comic book movie. And I'm more of a comic book movie fan

I consider Batman Begins and the Burton films better Batman movies, but TDK is still enjoyable and highly rewatchable. Aaron Eckhart as Harvey Dent is just perfect plus Heath did a good job although I don't find him as amazing as most but his performance is definitely memorable. I just like more of the fantasy elements being heavily present in Batman like the immortality the Lazarus Pit gives, the strange abilities of Poison Ivy, and my favorite of all....Mr. Freeze. I really enjoy the world and feel of the Arkham games and would love to somehow see that on the big screen.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I do consider TDK as a comic book movie, just sometimes reluctantly. It definitely is one.

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Old 08-18-2013, 11:16 AM   #72
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Tough one but I voted The Avengers simply because I've re-watched it more times and over the years TDK has chore for to watch/finish. I actually hate threads like this because I feel that people too often feel the need to belittle and tear down other's favorites to justify their preference. I also feel that Nolan's Bat-flicks get too much credit when it comes to redefining the genre by providing a darker more thoughtful tone for superhero films if anybody deserves credit for that its Bryan Singer and his X-Flicks.


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Old 08-18-2013, 01:33 PM   #73
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Tough one but I voted The Avengers simply because I've re-watched it more times and over the years TDK has chore for to watch/finish. I actually hate threads like this because I feel that people too often feel the need to belittle and tear down other's favorites to justify their preference. I also feel that Nolan's Bat-flicks get too much credit when it comes to redefining the genre by providing a darker more thoughtful tone for superhero films if anybody deserves credit for that its Bryan Singer and his X-Flicks.
Bryan Singer was the catalyst for the wave of comic films we've had since then. He took a team whose outfits would look gaudy and made them work on film. I think some things about Nolan's trilogy are overrated, but he showed us the hero's mindset in Begins, moral ambiguity in our heroes in Dark Knight, and the hero's vulnerability in Rises, including how the hero's persona can be a poison for the hero (to say nothing of turning Gotham into the animals Joker claimed them to be). Thus I think Nolan did more for comic film, but none of that would've happened if not for Singer's revival of the comic book film genre.

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Old 08-18-2013, 01:37 PM   #74
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Comic books have a wide range of stories contained within. Nolan broke the ice, but really these movies branching out in tone was inevitable.

How many comic stories broke ground and pushed the medium to new horizons? Plenty: The Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, Kraven's Last Hunt, etc. The potential is there in the source material, Nolan didn't invent it.

It was just a matter of time before somebody realized the vast opportunities these characters have for cinema and that they can be used to tell any number of stories. Once they took it seriously enough.

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Old 08-18-2013, 02:09 PM   #75
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I credit Nolan with bringing that potential into the film medium, since you bring up the comics as a separate medium. Much as a deride IM3 for its lackluster characterization of Killian, I can give it credit for trying to set itself apart from the rest of the MCU.

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