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View Poll Results: Which is better? | |||
Spider-Man 2 |
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20 | 22.73% |
The Dark Knight |
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68 | 77.27% |
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll |
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#76 | |
Twip
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
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They didn't do Peter right IMO. For most of it he felt like he was still a push over dork. Even the Era that Rami based his films had a confident Peter by the time he got into college.
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The following post is my opinion so take it as you will. |
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#77 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: kandor
Posts: 101
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both are highly overrated, but when it all boils down...both made an awesome superhero movie but TDK did it without doing an injustice to the main protagonist's character. and i feel as if the peter parker in spider-man 2/3 is not the peter parker from the comics.
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#78 | |
Well, he was.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,817
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I don't read Batman comics but from my understanding the one thing Batman never does is quit
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Blade • X-Men • Spider-Man • Blade 2 • X-Men 2 • HULK • Spider-Man 2 • Iron Man • X-Men First Class • Thor • Captain America: The First Avenger • The Amazing Spider-Man • The Wolverine • X-Men Days of Future Past • Guardians of the Galaxy • DEADPOOL • LOGAN |
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#79 |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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Batman quit for ten years in The Dark Knight Returns. He quit and let Azrael keep the Batman mantle after Knightfall until Azrael turned crazy and Bruce had to take it back.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#80 |
The Seventh Stranger
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,362
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The Dark Knight.
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#81 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,158
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It is kind of annoying how almost every sequel deals with the hero debating quitting or not.
But like RustyCage mentioned on the last page, the scene with at the end where Doc Rock gets his gift/privilege speech backwards is a huge mistake. Didn't notice it when I was younger but it's so obvious every time I watch it now, and I can't help but shake my head at it. |
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#82 |
Death Match Taunt
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 70,576
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I'm reading that story now, and Azrael was crazy since day one as the official Bat-replacement
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#83 |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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Yeah but they didn't become aware of that until after he beat Bane and went drunk on the power of it in that crazy ass new costume he made himself.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#84 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 10,831
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TDKR wasn't even the first adaptation that had him quit. That was the whole basis of Batman Beyond.
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#85 | |
Come what may..
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gotham
Posts: 4,050
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I think that's the big difference, and I think it's most people's gripe. Nolan/Bale's Batman hardly did anything comparatively in his career before hanging it up seemingly for good - twice. He never evolved into the mature Batman we knew and loved as we had been excitedly waiting for (in fact, he de-matured for the sake of adding drama to the plot), and even though it says 8 years pass, it still feels like he's just getting started. Not to mention, nothing Batmanny happens in that 8 years. Then he trains a whole lot, gets kinda lucky to smash Bane's mask tube, Catwoman shoots Bane, and Batman quits again, very probably for good. A little underwhelming. No ride into the sunset to continue the endless crusade, no satisfying philosophical triumph over Bane.. it was just 'WHEREZATRIGGEHUR, oh Catwoman killed you suddenly, woops... time to fake my death, I've had enough', which is all pretty un-Batman-like. It was a huge waste of potential for a budding franchise that had a whole world of stories and characters to explore and re-interpret beautifully, and his choice both times seems barely substantiated. This is what differentiates it from Batman Beyond. That Batman had a proper career behind him, and he behaved like Batman. Not to mention, he didn't just dump the cave on Terry and run away as Bale's Bruce did Blake. He raised Terry hands on, guided him. He realized the importance of his involvement not only as a continuing contributor to Gotham as Bruce Wayne, but as a mentor to his successor in this never-ending mission. 'The war goes on.' One more note - The Dark Knight Returns depicted the concept before either of the two. You can see influences from it in both! I do love that about Rises. ![]()
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Why do we fall?
Last edited by RustyCage; 09-01-2013 at 12:26 AM. |
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#86 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 20,591
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#87 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 397
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"We'll never see Day-Lewis and Kubrick, we'll never see Kurosawa and Eastwood, but we have officially seen Bale and Nolan, a cinematic dream pairing come to life!" Last edited by Squaremaster316; 09-02-2013 at 11:46 AM. |
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#88 |
A Rebellion Built on Hope
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 12,526
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Undoubtedly, The Dark Knight. SM2 is a damn good movie, the top tier of CBMs but TDK is an entirely different animal.
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#89 | |
Come what may..
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gotham
Posts: 4,050
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Unfortunately, Nolan didn't bother with Urban Prowler Batman in his trilogy. There was maybe one tiny suggestion at the beginning of The Dark Knight that he goes after gangs and drug dealers (also included in the lower scale criminals would be rapists, murderers, etc), and even that is debatable. The Bat Signal spooks a couple dudes making some kind of shady deal and they decide not to go through with it. Are they just scared of Batman in general? Or does he go out and directly bust guys like that? Guess we'll never know. But there is always a need for Batman. In the source material, that is made crystal clear. ![]()
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#90 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,671
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In TDKR, he quits, moves on, and that's all there is to it. The difference between TDK and TDKR is each film's opinion on the idea of Batman quitting. That's why I said that you have to take each story in context. Before critiquing a story for dealing with the idea of Batman quitting, one should ask themselves what the message behind that idea is. Does the film support the idea or does it not? Both TDK and Mask of the Phantasm did not support that idea and led Bruce to the realization that he can't quit, thus staying true to what Batman is all about. Rises did no such thing and that's where the difference lies. |
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#91 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,671
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Again, people are taking the idea of Bruce quitting out of context. There is a world of difference between Bruce hanging up the cape & cowl in The Dark Knight Returns/Batman Beyond and him doing it in The Dark Knight Rises. |
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#92 | |
Come what may..
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gotham
Posts: 4,050
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Are you saying The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises should be considered independent stories from each other? The lessons and message of The Dark Knight shouldn't be considered in context with Rises?
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#93 | |
Come what may..
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gotham
Posts: 4,050
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#94 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,671
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They should be considered in context. Which is why, in my opinion, Rises doesn't fit in with BB & TDK in context. A lot of themes and ideas carrying over from the previous films were either ignored or contradicted IMO.
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#95 |
Come what may..
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gotham
Posts: 4,050
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I have to agree with that. A repeat viewing is in my near future, so I'll have this in mind for it!
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#96 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 397
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Bruce wanted someone to pass the torch to and have someone to share a new life with, that carries over from the second film.
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"We'll never see Day-Lewis and Kubrick, we'll never see Kurosawa and Eastwood, but we have officially seen Bale and Nolan, a cinematic dream pairing come to life!" |
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#97 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 29,369
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Much of crime is a symptom of larger ills facing society. Not all, but there is no denying that poverty, corruption and lack of resource breeds stronger criminal elements in any society. Nolan wished to provide some grounded consequences to his Batman while still making him incredibly altruistic and heroic. In doing so, he made his goal about improving society. And in doing so, it cannot just be a rich man punching poor people in the face on an "average night out." You CAN do that in Nolan's setting. Indeed, I think that is more or less Frank Miller's approach to the character. However, it is very cynical, mean-spirited and nihilistic. In essence, it says Bruce Wayne does this not to change or improve society for a fearful urban population, but that it is wholly an outlet to feed his disturbed psychology: It's his form of therapy. Miller and even Burton touched on this more cynical and selfish view of the character, but both painted Batman in near apocalyptic settings where such an unstable protagonist's true motivations did not diminish the fact that he was facing cartoonish evil and villainy. Once you apply real consequences to it, Batman looks somewhat like a sadistic narcissist who instead of using his fortune to help improve the lives of Gothamites, instead uses it to feed his id. Granted, some would be happy with this interpretation, but Nolan sought to both ground it while maintaining the more romantic light of, say, Paul Dini or Denny O'Neal. So, for his Bruce, the bigger picture is always in mind (something rarely addressed by anyone not named Grant Morrison at DC Comics), and his goal is to improve Gotham City to the point where society can function admirably without the need for vigilante justice. And even so, the psychology and narcissism of it is still addressed in TDKR (another reason some fans hate that movie). Another way to put it is if Gotham City is Nolan's view of Manhattan, judging by the setting in TDKR, if you go there today, you wouldn't think it needs a Batman (though if you go up to the Bronx...). If Batman can get the city to take responsibility for its problems and actually invest in improving itself, not just in law and order but also in civic duties to the inner-city (Bruce is clearly a philanthropist in TDKR like his father whose death "galvanized" the city to address rampant poverty) with an eradicated organized crime element, suddenly Batman becomes just an outlet for Bruce's own psychological trauma. Which is then addressed in the third movie in a way that may not please some fans, but is one of the more adult readings of the character in any medium.
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"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country." --John Adams |
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#98 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,671
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#99 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,403
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Though, I don't remember the Ock backwards line. |
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#100 | |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,470
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Of course, TDK flips this all on its head and nothing goes as smoothly as Bruce thinks it will, and he ends up losing a lot. He doesn't get to walk away on his own terms. To me, the point of view presented throughout all 3 films is that being Batman forever would be insane and not the best way for Bruce to spend the rest of his life. It's more about how he can become a symbol, and how his actions can reverberate throughout history so he becomes more than just a man. Becoming a historical figure who will have made a difference and changed the course of Gotham ultimately for the better. The thing is that TDK is the only full-on tragic tale of the three. BB and TDKR are more about Bruce Wayne overcoming personal demons. And with TDKR that includes finally letting go of it all and no longer allowing tragedy to rule his life. Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 09-14-2013 at 02:21 PM. |
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