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Old 08-27-2013, 07:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

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Originally Posted by kedrell View Post
^That he did. In fact it's the exact same thing as when Superman killed Zod.
Which one?

When Superman killed Zod in Superman 2 or Man of Steel?

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Old 08-27-2013, 08:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

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See, i would agree with that.

The only difference is that when it happened in TDK, you felt the weight and tragedy of Batman both doing it to Dent, and also doing it to himself. In MOS, we are never really given a reason to sympathize with Zod and Superman never says jack **** about his "one rule," thereby making that moment hollow.

Just my opinion. And a fact, in this case.
Also, under no circumstances can you consider the outcome a victory for Zod. Whereas Joker essentially did get what he wanted in the end.

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Old 08-27-2013, 08:18 PM   #28
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

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Originally Posted by droidwarrior View Post
Which one?

When Superman killed Zod in Superman 2 or Man of Steel?
Zod didn't die in Superman 2. Only in the Donner Cut, and in it Superman immediately turns back time so Zod ends up back in the Phantom Zone.

In the Lester version he was arrested.

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Old 08-27-2013, 08:38 PM   #29
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

IMO, Batman didn't lose in TDK. It was more like a pyrrhic victory.

As for the "One Rule", Joker wanted Bruce to murder in cold blood, which Bruce did not do. Dent's death could be defined as either justifiable manslaughter or basic self defense. Gordon put it best in TDKR: "The Batman did not murder Harvey Dent, he saved my boy".

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Last edited by The Batman; 08-27-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

No, Dent's death was an accident, pure and simple. I came very close to sympathizing with Zod several times in MOS, and I definitely understood his motives/point of view. Also, Superman spent years traveling the world helping people and avoided getting into ANY kind of fight. The fact that he didn't say "I don't kill" every five minutes doesn't mean that it wasn't obvious.

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Old 08-27-2013, 10:35 PM   #31
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

I would hardly classify it as an accident, as Batman, who is knowledgeable in science, physics, biology, atop of the criminology, forensics, martial arts, and military grade training damn well knew what was going to happen when he knocked Dent over the edge.

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Old 08-27-2013, 10:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

He tackled Dent to prevent him from shooting an innocent child. He never intended for them to role over the edge, it just happened. That is a textbook example of an accidental death. Also, Batman was injured (shot, beaten repeatedly with a pipe, mauled by dogs) and exhausted, so he was desperate.

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Old 08-28-2013, 01:03 AM   #33
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

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Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
Also, under no circumstances can you consider the outcome a victory for Zod. Whereas Joker essentially did get what he wanted in the end.
Joker wanted Gotham to fall and Batman ensured that he didn't get that. Joker also wanted to corrupt Batman and I would argue that doesn't directly happen because Dent's death was unintentional on behalf of Batman. It was a desperate measure that Batman chose after attempting to reason with Dent and a near-blind dive to save the boy's life no matter what. The ultimate irony of the ending of the film is that Batman is compromised and vilified but it's through his own choice to shoulder the blame, which was to prevent the Joker from succeeding.

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Old 08-28-2013, 01:42 AM   #34
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

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Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
Batman killed Dent.
Dent died, but I don't believe Batman intentionally killed him. (As others have mentioned... looks like my reply is a day late)

And as Happy Jack eloquently stated, since the ending of TDK was Batman's own choice, its another reason the victory does not go to The Joker.


Last edited by OcStat; 08-28-2013 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

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Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
He tackled Dent to prevent him from shooting an innocent child. He never intended for them to role over the edge, it just happened. That is a textbook example of an accidental death. Also, Batman was injured (shot, beaten repeatedly with a pipe, mauled by dogs) and exhausted, so he was desperate.

Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack View Post
Joker wanted Gotham to fall and Batman ensured that he didn't get that. Joker also wanted to corrupt Batman and I would argue that doesn't directly happen because Dent's death was unintentional on behalf of Batman. It was a desperate measure that Batman chose after attempting to reason with Dent and a near-blind dive to save the boy's life no matter what. The ultimate irony of the ending of the film is that Batman is compromised and vilified but it's through his own choice to shoulder the blame, which was to prevent the Joker from succeeding.

People act like corrupting Dent was a primary goal of Joker's, when really, corrupting Dent was just one of Joker's numerous plans to turn Gotham into a pessimistic cesspool, which was his ultimate goal.

As you said, Batman is compromised, but that does not mean he lost in TDK.

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Old 08-28-2013, 02:16 PM   #36
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

Batman only would have lost if Gotham had gotten to see what Joker did to Dent. But they didn't. Batman made a noble sacrifice for Gotham's greater good. Joker's victory over Dent means nothing if the chaos he expected to reap from it was stopped by Batman.

Not to mention he attempted to blow up the ferries after they didn't blow each other up, which Batman stopped. Then he apprehended Joker himself, who had taken over the Gotham underworld at this point. So Gotham's biggest threat was captured by Batman.

Batman won, but he had to make sacrifices and lost a lot, like his reputation as a hero and symbol, and Rachel. Just proving to me why The Joker was Batman's greatest villain in the trilogy. Neither Bane or Ra's hit Batman as hard as Joker did.

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Old 08-28-2013, 02:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: Let The Hero Lose.

^ Summed it up perfectly.

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