Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect?

[batfreakforever]

I think the main simple reason why TDKR rubbed some comic fans the wrong way is simply the plot/story Nolan told for TDKR.
At the end of Begins you have the Joker set-up/card and it said to fans that The Joker would be in the follow-up.
Then at The Dark Knight ending you have Batman on the run from the cops and becoming the villian.
But in The Dark Knight Rises it by passes some of those threads and solves some of them off screen to tell an ending to the series. Though the characters are in the state that they are because of the events of the last film. It is a tie-up to everything that has happened in the first two films.
-Bruce has done his job but what now...
-Batman needs to be the symbol of hope to Gotham he set out to do in Begins,
-The LOS makes a last attempt at completing their own mission aswell as getting back at Bruce Wayne.
-Bruce lost the woman he wanted to be with now has to find someone else to spend the rest of his life with.
-Has to not rely on Batman to live life.
-Plus in a new film you also have to introduce some new elements in the new movie.
-The Gotham P.D going from corrupt in the first two films to standing up for their city and doing their job correctly with Batman not being needed.
But you also have to show that Batman was the right choice for Bruce and his city. Without Batman Gotham would be worse off.

[Brain Damage]

I'll never get tired of seeing people try to justify why I don't like TDKR
It seems to always boil down to "you didn't get it" or "it's not what you wanted."

BS. I knew about 8 years retirement, about Talia, about the League of Shadows, and about a whole lotta other things that I didn't really like in the movie. But going in I was totally ready and willing to buy into it. But it just didn't work. For me and many others the problem isn't with the story, it's with the way the story is told.

So please, if you LOVE TDKR, and you're ever about to make a post trying to justify why other people don't like it, please just don't

[BatmanGoesToRio]

Even before Rises TDK prevented this trilogy from being perfect. Most overrated movie of this decade.

[DACrowe]

Sure. Both sequels will be long remembered after the vast majority of these superhero movies now have faded.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by BatmanGoesToRio

Even before Rises TDK prevented this trilogy from being perfect. Most overrated movie of this decade.

Too bad TDK wasn't in this decade

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I'll never get tired of seeing people try to justify why I don't like TDKR
It seems to always boil down to "you didn't get it" or "it's not what you wanted."

BS. I knew about 8 years retirement, about Talia, about the League of Shadows, and about a whole lotta other things that I didn't really like in the movie. But going in I was totally ready and willing to buy into it. But it just didn't work. For me and many others the problem isn't with the story, it's with the way the story is told.

So please, if you LOVE TDKR, and you're ever about to make a post trying to justify why other people don't like it, please just don't

It's always a two-way street though. A lot of the time people (not saying you) try to quantify their dislikes with TDKR as objective flaws in the storytelling that are simply being excused and overlooked by people who like the movie, when in fact a lot of the times the very things that one person dislikes are the very things that another loves and admires about the movie. Alfred leaving Bruce for example. I didn't find it out of character (esp. given the history of the comics) and think that's one of the most heart-wrenching scenes in the trilogy.

[JackWhite]

Alfred leaving Bruce pretty much left a lump in my throat when I first watched the film. It's pretty much an enabler telling the drug addict "enough is enough. I'm not going to watch you kill yourself".

[TheCapedKnight]

If I had to choose one of the three films that prevented it from being "perfect", it would be Batman Begins in my opinion. TDKR was slow in the middle but it was intense. Much more intense than BB. However, TDK wins it all. It's not flawless, but it is the best out of all three.

[Senator Pleasury]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

Alfred leaving Bruce pretty much left a lump in my throat when I first watched the film. It's pretty much an enabler telling the drug addict "enough is enough. I'm not going to watch you kill yourself".

Well, except that a drug addict is nothing but addiction, feeling pleasure and self-destruction whereas Batman is about saving the city. Batman has always been exposing his life. All of a sudden it's too much for Alfred.

Originally Posted by TheCapedKnight

If I had to choose one of the three films that prevented it from being "perfect", it would be Batman Begins in my opinion. TDKR was slow in the middle but it was intense. Much more intense than BB. However, TDK wins it all. It's not flawless, but it is the best out of all three.

I agree.

[DACrowe]

It is too much, because Bruce is passed his prime. He could use his resources to help Gotham in other ways, instead he has a bit of a death wish. There can reach a point where enough is enough. Alfred reached that.

[Brain Damage]

All my problems with TDKR stem from the script.

From a filmmaking standpoint it's superb. Other than maybe Bane's voiced being mixed so damn loud

But Jesus, that script is weak. Particularly in the dialogue. Not only is it more exposition heavy than anything else Nolan's done, but it's also just flat and uninteresting. It's the kind of dialogue many writers use for the first draft just to get the story across, and then go back later on and make interesting.

And yet, there are SOME scenes that are really well written, and are as good as anything else in the trilogy. Bruce and Selina dancing comes to mind.

The contrast in quality from scene to scene is mind boggling.

[BatLobsterRises]

No way is TDKR more exposition heavy than Inception. The first hour of Inception is exposition. But, fun exposition for the most part.

TDKR is a pretty strong script. Definitely stronger than Begins in terms of dialogue. Jonah is the best dialogue writer of the three, and there's a noticeable jump in dialogue quality from BB to TDK/TDKR.

[Ms. Marvel]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

No way is TDKR more exposition heavy than Inception. The first hour of Inception is exposition. But, fun exposition for the most part.

TDKR is a pretty strong script. Definitely stronger than Begins in terms of dialogue. Jonah is the best dialogue writer of the three, and there's a noticeable jump in dialogue quality from BB to TDK/TDKR.

I completely agree.

[TheJediBrah]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I'll never get tired of seeing people try to justify why I don't like TDKR
It seems to always boil down to "you didn't get it" or "it's not what you wanted."

BS. I knew about 8 years retirement, about Talia, about the League of Shadows, and about a whole lotta other things that I didn't really like in the movie. But going in I was totally ready and willing to buy into it. But it just didn't work. For me and many others the problem isn't with the story, it's with the way the story is told.

So please, if you LOVE TDKR, and you're ever about to make a post trying to justify why other people don't like it, please just don't

Did you ever think that maybe people try to "justify why you don't like TDKR", because you make posts like this that don't actually say anything?

"it just didn't work" and "it's with the way the story is told" aren't reasons. So I can't blame people for trying to "justify why other people don't like it" when those people don't give real reasons. Actually it would be weird if they didn't make some attempt to justify it.

[batfreakforever]

I try and get all types of views on this trilogy from comic and non-comic fans and it's gets very interesting on the things both partys liked and didn't about these films. I tend to get with comic fans that their reasons for they way they view these films stems from things to do with the source material and the non-comic fans really only view these films on an entertainment value only. But this is from just me talking to people I know personally in my life not on the internet.

[batfreakforever]

Alot of people that I know were surprised that Christian Bale didn't return as Batman for Man Of Steel 2 when Ben Affleck was announced as Batman for that new film tells me alot about the way some people view these films. When I told them that Bale's version/story was finished and couldn't/shouldn't be in MOS 2 because of that reason some responses were oh I did'nt know that, He was just on holiday, Robin is just looking after the batcave/gotham just waiting for Bruce to return.
It just shows that maybe they are not really invested to pay attention to details/story. Maybe because that film was so sucessful that Bale would return in their eyes. They all had seen the trilogy but still said those things.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I'll never get tired of seeing people try to justify why I don't like TDKR
It seems to always boil down to "you didn't get it" or "it's not what you wanted."

BS. I knew about 8 years retirement, about Talia, about the League of Shadows, and about a whole lotta other things that I didn't really like in the movie. But going in I was totally ready and willing to buy into it. But it just didn't work. For me and many others the problem isn't with the story, it's with the way the story is told.

So please, if you LOVE TDKR, and you're ever about to make a post trying to justify why other people don't like it, please just don't

The award for best post goes to Brain Damage!

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

No way is TDKR more exposition heavy than Inception. The first hour of Inception is exposition. But, fun exposition for the most part.

Exactly, it's fun exposition that's introducing us to a new, unique world. TDKR is the third in the series, yet it starts off by introducing us to all of these new characters (Foley, Dagget, Senator whatshisname, Miranda) that frankly aren't nearly as interesting as the old ones. Compare that with the beginning of TDK where though we get small bits of new characters (Chechan, MCU detectives, mayor, etc) but the focus remains on Batman and Gordon.

TDKR is a pretty strong script. Definitely stronger than Begins in terms of dialogue. Jonah is the best dialogue writer of the three, and there's a noticeable jump in dialogue quality from BB to TDK/TDKR.

I'll disagree here. There's definitely better stuff in TDKR than in BB, but Begins wins out for me because it's consistent. TDKR goes from great dialogue all the way to "No! I came back to stop you!". It's all over the place in terms of quality.

Originally Posted by TheJediBrah

Did you ever think that maybe people try to "justify why you don't like TDKR", because you make posts like this that don't actually say anything?

"it just didn't work" and "it's with the way the story is told" aren't reasons. So I can't blame people for trying to "justify why other people don't like it" when those people don't give real reasons. Actually it would be weird if they didn't make some attempt to justify it.

That's because I was being general
After over a year of discussing this movie, I'm all reasoned out. If you're really curious about my opinion on specific parts of TDKR you can look at my post history.

[TheJediBrah]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

That's because I was being general
After over a year of discussing this movie, I'm all reasoned out. If you're really curious about my opinion on specific parts of TDKR you can look at my post history.

That's ok man. You just didn't get the film. No biggie.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Exactly, it's fun exposition that's introducing us to a new, unique world. TDKR is the third in the series, yet it starts off by introducing us to all of these new characters (Foley, Dagget, Senator whatshisname, Miranda) that frankly aren't nearly as interesting as the old ones. Compare that with the beginning of TDK where though we get small bits of new characters (Chechan, MCU detectives, mayor, etc) but the focus remains on Batman and Gordon.

I'll give you that the new characters aren't as colorful as some of the supporting characters in TDK. Although I think Miranda adds some exotic and mysterious flavor to the movie, and I actually think like Daggett and Stryver were a lot of fun. I never felt like the movie was overly focused on the supporting characters though. And really, exposition and introducing new characters are two different things. Any given movie has to introduce characters.

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I'll disagree here. There's definitely better stuff in TDKR than in BB, but Begins wins out for me because it's consistent. TDKR goes from great dialogue all the way to "No! I came back to stop you!". It's all over the place in terms of quality.

I think that line is more of an example of a somewhat cheesy line (and all three movies have them) that could've been cut all together as opposed to a flat out bad line. I mean, Bruce even tells Ra's in BB "I am gonna stop you!", so it's not like it's inherently bad for Batman to say something like that to the villain. Plus, I feel like important part of that line is him saying "No" in response to coming back to die. Part of the whole finding the will to live again angle.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I think that line is more of an example of a somewhat cheesy line (and all three movies have them) that could've been cut all together as opposed to a flat out bad line. I mean, Bruce even tells Ra's in BB "I am gonna stop you!", so it's not like it's inherently bad for Batman to say something like that to the villain. Plus, I feel like important part of that line is him saying "No" in response to coming back to die. Part of the whole finding the will to live again angle.

I've said this in another thread, I think, but the problem with the "No, I came back to stop you!" scene is the way it's shot. I mean, it's like Bane's just waiting for Batman to deliver his cheesy line so they can start the fight. I believe that if they had focused on Batman only during that shot, it wouldn't have seemed so ridiculous.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

I've said this in another thread, I think, but the problem with the "No, I came back to stop you!" scene is the way it's shot. I mean, it's like Bane's just waiting for Batman to deliver his cheesy line so they can start the fight. I believe that if they had focused on Batman only during that shot, it wouldn't have seemed so ridiculous.

Yeah, it might've seemed a bit less cheesy if they had cut to a closeup of Batman for the line but I'm guessing they wanted to show the two of them standing in the middle of all the carnage before the fight started.

[james-in-cali]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I'll never get tired of seeing people try to justify why I don't like TDKR
It seems to always boil down to "you didn't get it" or "it's not what you wanted."

BS. I knew about 8 years retirement, about Talia, about the League of Shadows, and about a whole lotta other things that I didn't really like in the movie. But going in I was totally ready and willing to buy into it. But it just didn't work. For me and many others the problem isn't with the story, it's with the way the story is told.

So please, if you LOVE TDKR, and you're ever about to make a post trying to justify why other people don't like it, please just don't

This is exactly how I feel about the film. Great post, its like you are in my head!

[JackWhite]

The best retort Batman could have had to Bane would be exactly what he said to Ra's in BB: "It ends here". He could have even said "No...it ends here". It would have been a perfect throwback to Begins to boot.

But yeah, the whole exchange is just flat. It would have been better to have both Batman and Bane kind of circling each other in a primal way; while saying there lines and then they can start going at it. I'm really surprised it was shot the way it was.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

I've said this in another thread, I think, but the problem with the "No, I came back to stop you!" scene is the way it's shot. I mean, it's like Bane's just waiting for Batman to deliver his cheesy line so they can start the fight. I believe that if they had focused on Batman only during that shot, it wouldn't have seemed so ridiculous.

You know, you might be right. Bale's delivery itself also seemed kinda cheesier than it needed to be. I'm wondering what the other takes were like.

BatLobsterRises, you mentioned the "I am going to stop you" line. Which I have to admit, on paper, is cheesy as hell. But Bale's delivery and the way that scene is cut never made me question it. So yeah, though I didn't realize it before, the way the "I came back to stop you" bit is shot is just as much of a reason why it doesn't work as the line itself.