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Old 08-28-2013, 11:09 AM   #51
Super Jim
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

^ If you look at the Trask website it shows pictures from history with Sentinals. For example, there is one picture of with a Sentinal at some martial law type situation.

The website states that between 1973 and 1996 Trask produced 8732 Mark I Sentinals for the United States, China, Russia, etc. Are you really trying to state that when the President's life was in danger from a mutant threat in X2 that they didn't have any of the many highly sophisticated, likely very costly, anti mutant robots there to protect the President? Are you trying to state that in X2, after they captured Magneto, the most feared mutant on the planet, that they wouldn't have these anti-mutant robots in the vacinity, likely ones designed from plastic to prevent Magneto's powers from working on them? Or at least ones at the facility to guard against other mutants trying to break their leader out? That when they were transporting Mystique, Multiple Man and the Juggernaught (who shouldn't even have been a mutant) in X3 that they wouldn't be using these Sentinal robots that were designed and purchased for that specific purpose? That when an army of mutants were attacking Alcatraz that they wouldn't have Sentinals there?

To me it would be a huge hole in the story if Singer tries to get us to believe that these Sentinals have been around for all of this time without it ever having been mentioned or shown.

Now here is something to think about...

The Trask-Industries website states that in 2013 the following happened:

"Trask Laboratories unveils groundbreaking ability to create a hybrid gene with mutant DNA"

Seems that this is what is happening in the present.

Next the website states the following happened in 2020:

"Trask Industries announces Sentinel Mark X program"

So, this is helping I think. The future dystopian problem is probably coming from this Sentinal Mark X and possibly the hybrid gene with mutant DNA from 2013 is what is used to create the Mark X (which replaces the Mark I) or creates Nimrod, which could be what goes back in time changing the past.

Now Farren above asked me "What about the mid-credits scene or the online stuff makes you think this isn't possible?" as far as the timeline shifting around the present characters.

Well, the mid-credits scene seemed to be from the normal time preiod (likely 2013). Wolverine is just hanging out in an airport. Umm, how would he ever be able to get through security being laced with adamantium (he still has the stuff on his bones, right)? There are no Sentinals hanging around the airport (and from the information on the Trask Industries website you would expect that there would be Sentinals at the airport).

Also just the way things look it doesn't appear to be some dystopian future, or even one where it is heading that way because Mutants are being hounded by these robots. Things looked, well normal...

So, how would 2013 (assuming it is 2013 in the mid-credits scene) Xavier and Magneto know that they need to send Wolverine back to 1973? Sure seems as though that is where we are going and why they tracked Wolverine down.

So to me, the proper way to have done this movie would have been as follows:

1. Show someone/something from the future going back in time and changing the past. Show Trask being affected by this change to the timeline. It could be anything, from Kennedy's assassination to Watergate to anything else that makes sense. If it was me I would be showing Nimrod being brought online, going through a series of calculations, coming to a conclusion on the best way to deal with the mutant threat, creating a time portal and going through.

2. Show the X-Men in the present, focusing on one individual, likely Xavier. Then have something happen, like a wave, or some individuals, like Xavier (mental powers) or Storm (attuned to the environment) react to some unseen force, showing that they are in pain. Then show things change around Xavier into the dystopian world that Sentinals would cause. Would Xavier know that something is off? If so, why would it be 2013 Xavier that we are being shown and who realizes this, and not Xavier from a different time? The best way to explain this is to show that the thing that changed the past traveled back in time from 2013, so that is why it's 2013 Xavier that we are with and due to his mental powers he feels that something is not right, or maybe he just knows that it's not right.

3. Dystopian present Xavier would then seek out Magneto, or Wolverine, and come up with a way to send Wolverine back to the point in time that needs to be changed. Possibly using new mutants, like Blink, to send Wolverine back. But why 1973 (to prevent the Mark I from being released) instead of a time before that or even to the point that someone or something was sent back that altered the timeline in the first place?

4. Wolvie is sent back, seeks out the 1973 X-Men, works with, or against Magneto and Mystique, and stops the release of the Sentinals. His mind is sent back to 2013 through some means.

5. He wakes up just where he was when he was sent back, on some table at the X-Mansion, but things look better. "Fixed" for a lack of a better term. Wolvie's dialog can be something like "Is the timeline fixed?" to which Jean can say "You tell me."

Or better yet, Wolvie wakes up in the middle of a battle. The world around him is a ruination of a city, with energy fire all around, fire breaking out all over the place, buildings and bridges caved, and others battling each other. He's disoriented and just drops to the ground. Someone runs over to him and cradles his head. He opens his eyes and sees... Jean. She says something like "I thought I lost you" and kisses him full on the mouth. A Sentinal lands, grabs a car and throws it away in order to get at the mutants. It then points it's hand at the pair as power starts to eminate. All of a sudden the robot pauses as if confused and explodes as metal flies in all directions, but none of it seems to touch Wolverine and Jean. Magneto is hovering above them yelling out to his followers to retreat. Jean helps Wolvie to his feet, just starting to come to his senses. We see that he is dressed very differently than we have come to know and then we see, as he looks down his right arm, that his right hand is missing... Fade to Black!!!

Now they could still surprise me and go this route (something being sent back to change the present (future) around the 2013 charatcers), but it doesn't seem to be the case. I guess it could be that the reason they have sought out Wolverine is to investigate a new threat to mutants, which would be Nimrod (and not to send him back in time). Wolverine would go investigate and they could even have Magneto give him back his adamantium in order to be able to do this (make the audience happy). Wolvie goes to investigate with other X-Men (Storm, Shadowcat, Iceman, Colossus), Nimrod becomes activated and somehow transports back to the past. The timeline then shifts around Wolverine (instead of Xavier). Wolverine's mind is not affected because he was within the "bubble" when Nimrod goes through. The other X-Men were not protected in this way. Reality changed around Wolverine instantaneously, but his mind wasn't affected. He's now in a different place and in an obviously different reality (dystopian present) but he knows it. He finds Xavier, or Magneto, or whomever and meets new characters (Blink and Bishop) and some old. They listen to him and realize he's telling the truth. They come up with a way to send his mind back to the point they think changed the timeline (1973), possibly using Blinks power, and sends him back. Everything else plays out as above...

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Old 08-28-2013, 11:21 AM   #52
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

I stopped reading at "Juggernaut shouldn't have even been a mutant".

But you're basing the actual plot points of the movie off of viral marketing which aren't actual plot aspects of the film. If you don't understand why that is flawed reasoning and logic, then we really can't continue a conversation.

But for the one bit beyond Juggernaut I did read:

Xavier and Magneto aren't tracking Logan down in The Wolverine to send him back in time. That's ridiculous. They track him down to help fight against the now growing Sentinel threat. He wIill be sent back in time 10 years later (already confirmed) when mutants have all but lost that fight against Sentinels.

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Old 08-28-2013, 12:04 PM   #53
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^ Why would it be the "Juggernaut shouldn't have even been a mutant" that caused you to stop (although I suspect you kept reading). You do know that his power was supposed to be mystical, right? Anyway, back to the point...

What exactly are you basing your statement of "viral marketing which aren't actual plot aspects of the film"? From everything we have been shown what is on the Trask-Industries website is supposed to be factual per the movie. I mean, if there have been 8 thousand robots flying between 1973 and 1996, wouldn't we have seen that at some point in X1 through X3, or Origins? Isn't that a fair question?

The website indicates that "Trask Laboratories unveils groundbreaking ability to create a hybrid gene with mutant DNA" in 2013 and "Trask Industries announces Sentinel Mark X program" in 2020. You don't think this is going to be part of the movie? Why put it on the "viral marketing" site if it wasn't going to be actual plot points?

You are saying that Xavier and Magneto have gone out of their way to find Wolvie to just "fight against the now growing Sentinel threat". Why do they need Wolverine specifically? And haven't we already established that this "growing threat" has been in place for the past what, 40 years? Which is it, either there have been 8000 robots flying around since 1996, or it's a new threat?

So you're saying the movie is going to be that Wolvie and the X-Men have been effectively at war with these robots that have been around since the 70's that we have never seen, are losing this war, and decide to send Wolvie back to 1973 to stop them from ever happening?

I hope that that is not the story. I will be very disappointed and you should be too. That would mean that Singer would be expecting us to believe that these Sentinals have been around all of this time and we've never seen them. That is what would be ridiculous!

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Old 08-28-2013, 03:23 PM   #54
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

It seems more and more likely that the story is set is an alternate timeline. There were no Sentinels in the original trilogy (apart from in the Danger Room in X3, and an icon on Stryker's computer in X2).

So, the past must be a different version of events. Could it not just be another reality where things aren't the same? Does it need a trigger event to make it branch off from normal reality, or could it just exist anyway?

According to the Many Worlds Interpretation - a theory of quantum mechanics: "There is a very large – perhaps infinite – number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes."

I can't see how there could be a trigger event prior to 1973 or surely Wolverine would travel back to that point instead? Unless he and the X-Men are unaware of that earlier trigger point - which would therefore mean they don't completely stop the existence of an anti-mutant threat because they don't eliminate it at source.

My brain hurts. Time travel is always a tricky one.

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Old 08-28-2013, 04:29 PM   #55
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^ I've been saying exactly what you are. If this is a change to the timeline, since we've never seen the Sentinels that have been around since 1973, then something happened prior to 1973 and affected Trask and society in general or like you say, it could be a totally unrelated parallel universe. The latter is unlikely since the general audience needs to get whats going on, and they wouldn't understand that this reality is different than the ones they've seen in X1-X3, Origins and the Wolverine. Now if instead they showed Nimrod going back in time and attempting to kill the President, forcing mutants to show their powers while trying to stop it, then this would change things. Trask would then devote his energy to anti-mutant things and the government would fund it.

But it might be quite possible that Xavier, Wolverine, Magneto, whomever; doesn't know the specific catalyst that causes the dystopian future, though they could surmise that if they stop the Mark I from being released in 1973 then they would prevent the dystopian future. So yes, in this way they wouldn't stop the anti-mutant threat, but it might be possible that Xavier would be able to have changed the minds of the people if the Sentinels were'nt flying around. In other words, without the Sentinels the mutants could "win". Either Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistense, or Magneto's dream of mutant superiority. They may not know which one would win out, but they do know that with the Sentinels neither of them will win... This would actually be a good thing for them to explain in the movie showing why Xavier and Magneto are willing to work with each other...

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Old 08-28-2013, 04:49 PM   #56
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In the SDCC clip that leaked online, they don't say the time travel is to stop Sentinels but to give Xavier a new sense of hope. That sounds a bit vague, so there may be more to the conversation that we haven't yet heard.

They must have a specific reason for choosing 1973. There must also be a reason that they choose Wolverine.

The time travel must also surely be a one-shot deal or they could use it to alter other stuff like Cyclops' death, or the development of the cure, or Jean's death at Alkali Lake, or Xavier putting the block in Jean's mind.

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Old 08-28-2013, 08:56 PM   #57
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^ Why would it be the "Juggernaut shouldn't have even been a mutant" that caused you to stop (although I suspect you kept reading). You do know that his power was supposed to be mystical, right? Anyway, back to the point...

What exactly are you basing your statement of "viral marketing which aren't actual plot aspects of the film"? From everything we have been shown what is on the Trask-Industries website is supposed to be factual per the movie. I mean, if there have been 8 thousand robots flying between 1973 and 1996, wouldn't we have seen that at some point in X1 through X3, or Origins? Isn't that a fair question?

The website indicates that "Trask Laboratories unveils groundbreaking ability to create a hybrid gene with mutant DNA" in 2013 and "Trask Industries announces Sentinel Mark X program" in 2020. You don't think this is going to be part of the movie? Why put it on the "viral marketing" site if it wasn't going to be actual plot points?

You are saying that Xavier and Magneto have gone out of their way to find Wolvie to just "fight against the now growing Sentinel threat". Why do they need Wolverine specifically? And haven't we already established that this "growing threat" has been in place for the past what, 40 years? Which is it, either there have been 8000 robots flying around since 1996, or it's a new threat?

So you're saying the movie is going to be that Wolvie and the X-Men have been effectively at war with these robots that have been around since the 70's that we have never seen, are losing this war, and decide to send Wolvie back to 1973 to stop them from ever happening?

I hope that that is not the story. I will be very disappointed and you should be too. That would mean that Singer would be expecting us to believe that these Sentinals have been around all of this time and we've never seen them. That is what would be ridiculous!
I know Juggernaut's origins. It has no place in the movies. Making Juggernaut a mutant was a much better choice for the movie.

Why wouldn't they track down Logan? He's virtually invincible. Logan would be a great weapon to have against Sentinels.

I'm not saying Wolverine and the X-Men have been at war against Sentinels since 1973. I'm saying that Sentinels were kept in secret since 1973, and didn't become an open weapon against mutants until 2013 and beyond. The ending of The Wolverine, and the time period of X-Men: Days Of Future Past, is 7-8 years apart. X-Men: Days Of Future Past is confirmed to take place 10 years after X-Men: The Last Stand, and the end credits scene of The Wolverine takes place 2 years after the events in Japan, which arguably takes place a year after X-Men: The Last Stand due to comments made by Yukio ("I've been tracking you for a year").

Somewhere following the events of X-Men: The Last Stand and the end credits scene of The Wolverine, Sentinels became publicly accepted and publicly marketed. The advertisement in the airport shows that Trask Industries and the Sentinel project are now public, when they obviously weren't before. So in the 3 year time span between the end of X-Men: The Last Stand and the end credits scene of The Wolverine, Sentinels became public. And in the 7-8 years following the end credits scene of The Wolverine, Sentinels become a threat not just to mutants, but to the world as a whole, causing the apocalyptic future that Logan is sent back in time to prevent.

Now, when these events happened post X-Men: The Last Stand / pre-The Wolverine, and continue on beyond The Wolverine, but Logan is sent back to 1973 instead, is yet to be determined WHY this happens. But I think it's safe to say that, despite viral marketing that has Sentinels at Reagan's inauguration, as well as other various historic events, that Sentinels won't have been walking the streets since 1973.

And even if they were, it is very possible that the Sentinels were thought to be destroyed prior to the events of the main trilogy, which is why they weren't running around in X-Men 1 - 3, and also explain why Xavier had a Sentinel Danger Room simulation.

And perhaps that's why Logan is sent back to 1973, to stop the Sentinel program before it starts, whereas in the original timeline, Sentinels were thought to be destroyed, but the technology instead remained, and Trask Industries was able to redevelop Sentinels following the events of the main trilogy. But if Logan is sent back to 1973, and the early days of Trask Industries, the Sentinels can be destroyed before they were ever created, destroying the technology and preventing them from being created again in the future, thus preventing the apocalyptic future from ever happening.

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Old 08-28-2013, 09:25 PM   #58
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

I'm going to have to agree with Super Jim that we shouldn't be discounting the viral marketing in our speculation. We don't know for sure how much it likes up with the film, but when part of it includes includes "photos" of sentinels participating in very public places and iconic events, it seems like the viral campaign might be trying to tell us something.

But because I try to keep an open mind and I like playing Devil's advocate, I did try to think about a way that this ISN'T an alternate reality/already altered reality....

Perhaps at the time of the original films the sentinels weren't in active service OR that they were unauthorized for use on US soil. This also could be coupled with another thought I had, which is that over the years the sentinel program turned into the equivalent of a cold war nuclear arms race, which was sorta-kinda halted in the mid nineties. (I'll explain why below). According to the trask-industries site:
Quote:
Originally Posted by trask-industries
The Sentinel Program

In 1973, Trask Industries introduced the first Sentinel production model, the Mark I. Bolivar Trask’s groundbreaking research in AI, robotics and autonomous ballistic systems laid the foundation for the world's most capable anti-mutant defense system. Since the program's inception, we’ve continued to advance our founder's cause through eight additional generational upgrades and enhancements.

As we celebrate five decades of achievement, we also bid farewell to regular production of the Mark I and shift our efforts to full-time manufacturing of the Mark X — our first complete overhaul of the Sentinel line. These highly anticipated units will combine next-generation nanotechnology and bioweapon breakthroughs, promising an even brighter future for the human race.

Sentinel Mark I (9th generation)

Between 1973 and 1996, Trask produced 8732 Sentinel Mark Is for the governments of the United States, China, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, France, India and the United Kingdom. The Mark I is still in service and current generations include the following features...
Anyone else think it's odd that the data doesn't include anything post 1996? This is the kind of PR that seems like it's hiding something, like, perhaps there weren't any sentinels being made after 1996.

In 1996 the UN passed the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. The treaty has never gone into effect, because there are still 8 countries which haven't ratified and/or signed the treaty. Those eight countries are: China, Egypt, India, Iran, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan, United States. It's not the same 8 countries that are known to have purchased sentinels, but there is some overlap, and countries like France and Russia did have nuclear programs, so there seems to be a similar pattern imo.

So maybe we're looking at an MCU take on the matter, only in this version it's sentinels instead of nuclear testing, and in this version the equivalent treaty WAS fully ratified. Now I'm not suggesting this "treaty" completely banned sentinels, but it may have been one which limited their use and included a ban on NEW sentinels being made. Basically, much like the nuclear arms race, the overall public opinion towards sentinels changed. Perhaps there was no treaty behind it. Maybe it was just a domestic US law, or general policy.

So what happens after 1996? Mutants start to become publicly acknowledged to exist, and Magneto starts stirring up trouble. Around 2013-ish (I would guess at the time of the Wolverine mid-credits scene), Trask industries comes along and says, "My, what a coincidence. With our knowledge of genetics and our old sentinel program, we can outfit those old Mark I's to hunt mutants for you." That could be what prompted Xavier and Erik to contact Logan.

I'm also going to throw out a little bit that caught my eye. This might explain why the sentinels aren't so prolific:
Quote:
Originally Posted by trask-industries
"Maintenance: Because the Sentinel Mark I is based around autonomous systems, it incorporates a hibernative maintenance stasis mode, which offers reduced maintenance costs or maximum efficiency."
This is a nice way of saying "this stuff costs a lot to fix, so don't use it for trivial things. And keep it turned off when you aren't using it." And it suggests to me that sentinels spent a lot of time turned off, as opposed to being in constant patrol or guard mode. That might explain why they aren't so prevalent.
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So, the past must be a different version of events. Could it not just be another reality where things aren't the same? Does it need a trigger event to make it branch off from normal reality, or could it just exist anyway?
I think it could be either. Based on my layman's understanding of time travel theory it seems like both scenarios have been proposed. The first is that the time traveler, upon triggering a change (or at least, a significant one that would result in a parodox), he creates a new branch of reality which he continues along on, separate from the original one. The other is that there already is another reality (or, realities) and that the time traveler will end up in it, again, in order to prevent a paradox.

That being said, Singer can do whatever he wants. There seems to be precedent in fiction for both ideas, so that's probably what really matters. He might turn to science for inspiration or "rules" though. That's the vibe I've gotten so far from his statements.

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My brain hurts. Time travel is always a tricky one.
Don't feel bad, it makes everyone's brain hurt.

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Old 08-28-2013, 09:40 PM   #59
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My brain certainly hurts.

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Old 08-28-2013, 11:22 PM   #60
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It seems more and more likely that the story is set is an alternate timeline. There were no Sentinels in the original trilogy (apart from in the Danger Room in X3, and an icon on Stryker's computer in X2).
I'm pretty confident that isn't set in an alternate timeline.

The Wolverine had a connection to the original trilogy and DOFP.

Just because there's suddenly a Sentinel program, it doesn't mean its already set in an alternate timeline.

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Old 08-29-2013, 12:44 AM   #61
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I'm pretty confident that isn't set in an alternate timeline.

The Wolverine had a connection to the original trilogy and DOFP.

Just because there's suddenly a Sentinel program, it doesn't mean its already set in an alternate timeline.


If there is any alternate timeline, it will be Logan going back in time to 1973.

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Old 08-29-2013, 07:34 AM   #62
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

It's more like a retcon of there always being Sentinles around.

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Old 08-29-2013, 07:47 AM   #63
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I'm pretty confident that isn't set in an alternate timeline.

The Wolverine had a connection to the original trilogy and DOFP.

Just because there's suddenly a Sentinel program, it doesn't mean its already set in an alternate timeline.
I guess so. It seems, then, that Sentinels did exist in the 'normal' past, at least until 1996 when the program was put on ice.

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Old 08-29-2013, 10:07 AM   #64
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I guess so. It seems, then, that Sentinels did exist in the 'normal' past, at least until 1996 when the program was put on ice.
Yeah that's what I was thinking, although we've really only got that wiggy statistic on the Trask Website about sentinels produced between 1973-1996, which even I'll admit isn't definitive proof. It would explain why the X-Men were practicing against sentinels in the danger room though -- that would at least be consistent.
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1. Show someone/something from the future going back in time and changing the past. Show Trask being affected by this change to the timeline. It could be anything, from Kennedy's assassination to Watergate to anything else that makes sense. If it was me I would be showing Nimrod being brought online, going through a series of calculations, coming to a conclusion on the best way to deal with the mutant threat, creating a time portal and going through.
I really like this idea.

It also seems reminiscent of Terminator, which could explain why Singer felt compelled to speak with James Cameron. Singer himself has made it seem like he showed his ideas to Cameron because he wanted Cameron's take on whether his scenario "made sense" or not. But I wonder if he was also looking for Cameron's approval on a plot that bore a lot of similarity to Terminator.

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Old 08-29-2013, 12:32 PM   #65
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I just can't understand how some feel that we should just discount a whole website that has been set up for the sole purpose of promoting this movie. They created this Trask website to give us some information about what is in the movie, so shouldn't we take what's on that site at face value? This site is not a red herring, it's a promotional piece to give us information.

In this movie Trask Industries has been around since the early 60's, developed and released their first Sentinel in 1973, which just so happens to be the year Wolverine is sent back to, also created other anti-mutant technology (Collar, tracking), so these will likely be in the film, created a hybrid gene with mutant DNA in 2013 and then releases the new Mark X in 2020.

Look, there have been almost 9 thousand anti-mutant robots out there, so there's just no way that these have been secret. Even though production seems to have stopped in 1996 (was that then the cure happened?) Trask Industries was still going strong, so this idea of everyone knowing about this, but never saying anything, doesn't make any sense.

If they wanted us to believe that no one really knows about these 9000 Sentinels, then they wouldn't have made it where there have been 9000 Sentinels released! They would have written the movie where just now the Sentinals are becoming an issue, not that they have been around for the past 40 years!!!

In my opinion, the Trask website should be looked at as a great opportunity for us to try to figure some things out, like Farren is doing above.

The Trask history of 1973, 2013 and 2020 should be huge pieces of evidence since we expect some of these dates to be part of this movie. Since the Trask site shows that the first Sentinel was released in 1973, and that's when Wolverine is being sent back to, then doesn't it make sense it's to stop the release of the Sentinals? Yes, you and I would say "Stupid, go back to 1970 and stop the Sentinels" or, "Stupid, go back to 1962 and stop Trask from creating Trask Industries", but hey, for the general audience 1973 makes sense.

Also the reason it will be Wolverine going back is because in 1973 Wolvie is alive and well. Most of the other X-men would be too young. Maybe they could have gone with Beast, but likely he's too busy up there in Washington. I suspect that the process of sending Wolvie's mind back will require both Xavier (mind powers) and Magneto (either protecting Xavier or magentic powers) to work; so they couldn't go back.

Now the hibernative maintenance stasis mode means something. There has to be a reason why it was included on the site!

Now, as far as timeline stories go, people often forget that when you have a time loop story (like Terminator) it wasn't always that way. What I mean is this...

In Terminator the machines took over, man fought, and the machines sent a Terminator back in time to stop the birth of the leader. Man sent one of their own back to stop the Terminator. But the man they sent back turns out to be the father of the leader that the machines were trying to stop.

This scenerio is actually impossible, and let me explain why...

The very first time the timeline played out there couldn't have been a John Connor. Sarah only became what she was because of the Terminator and without the Terminator going back to kill John he never would have been born. In other words, in the very first interation of this timeline there couldn't have been a John Connors so the Terminator was never sent back so John was never born. So effectively the whole premise of Terminator is impossible!!!

Am I making anyone's brain hurt?

In the Terminator it's the one timeline method that they try to use.

Now what's good is that the X-Men universe has never created an impossible timeline situation like what you have in Terminator. See in DOFP and any other timeline X-story, it's something changing the past to create a new future. In Terminator it was the future, crating a new past, which creates the future which counldn't have happened without itself. Just doesn't work!

Makes much more sense to take a robot like Nimrod and have it send itself back to change the past which changes the future.

My point is that in any timeline story (like Looper for example) you have the first timeline (the original) where things played out as normal, then you have something from the future change the past that creates either a new reality or changes the existing one. If it's a new reality then the question is whether the original ceases to exist or just keeps on trucking on. Personally I have always liked the stories that has something from the future go back in time and change the past and boom, everything alters around those in the present at the time when the things goes back in time, showing the readers/audience that you have a whole new reality because of the change made to the past!

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Old 08-29-2013, 05:43 PM   #66
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

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I just can't understand how some feel that we should just discount a whole website that has been set up for the sole purpose of promoting this movie. They created this Trask website to give us some information about what is in the movie, so shouldn't we take what's on that site at face value? This site is not a red herring, it's a promotional piece to give us information.
I'm with you. I don't think we have to take the viral marketing as film canon, but we should at least consider the possibility that it is.

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Now, as far as timeline stories go, people often forget that when you have a time loop story (like Terminator) it wasn't always that way. What I mean is this...

In Terminator the machines took over, man fought, and the machines sent a Terminator back in time to stop the birth of the leader. Man sent one of their own back to stop the Terminator. But the man they sent back turns out to be the father of the leader that the machines were trying to stop.

This scenerio is actually impossible, and let me explain why...

The very first time the timeline played out there couldn't have been a John Connor. Sarah only became what she was because of the Terminator and without the Terminator going back to kill John he never would have been born. In other words, in the very first interation of this timeline there couldn't have been a John Connors so the Terminator was never sent back so John was never born. So effectively the whole premise of Terminator is impossible!!!

Am I making anyone's brain hurt?

In the Terminator it's the one timeline method that they try to use.

Now what's good is that the X-Men universe has never created an impossible timeline situation like what you have in Terminator. See in DOFP and any other timeline X-story, it's something changing the past to create a new future. In Terminator it was the future, crating a new past, which creates the future which counldn't have happened without itself. Just doesn't work!

Makes much more sense to take a robot like Nimrod and have it send itself back to change the past which changes the future.

My point is that in any timeline story (like Looper for example) you have the first timeline (the original) where things played out as normal, then you have something from the future change the past that creates either a new reality or changes the existing one. If it's a new reality then the question is whether the original ceases to exist or just keeps on trucking on. Personally I have always liked the stories that has something from the future go back in time and change the past and boom, everything alters around those in the present at the time when the things goes back in time, showing the readers/audience that you have a whole new reality because of the change made to the past!
Now here's where I think I disagree a bit.

I actually think Terminator (looking at is as a standalone film) works perfectly fine given it's own interpretation of time travel. I completely understand where your thinking is at, because I used to get stuck on the same thing with Terminator: the idea that there was an original timeline where there was no John Connor because the Terminator and Reese hadn't been sent back yet.

But the problem is that you're looking at this from the point of view of the time travelers, not the timeline itself. In 1984 Kyle Reese appears from the future and fathers John Connor. From Reese's pov he has already been sent back in time, but from the timeline's pov he hasn't been, so it's fine that John Connor hasn't been born yet.

This plot is actually pretty consistent with the current theories of time travel. Not that is HAS to be -- I have no problem with different ideas about time travel, and like you, I like the notion that the past can be changed. It makes for a lot less cynical storytelling. But The Terminator still works, both by it's own internal logic and by what current theoretical physics thinks.

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Old 08-30-2013, 05:58 AM   #67
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Default Guys, this happens in the middle of Origins

Three Mile Island happened in 1979. DOFP happens in 1973. Odds are that the 70s Wolverine still has the adamantium skeleton but didn't get his memory wiped.

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Old 08-30-2013, 06:27 AM   #68
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Default Re: Guys, this happens in the middle of Origins

XMOW made it look like the adamantium surgery and the climax happened within days. I doubt he'll have adamantium.

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Old 08-30-2013, 08:30 AM   #69
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XMOW made it look like the adamantium surgery and the climax happened within days. I doubt he'll have adamantium.
XMOW also made a lot of things seem off. That's kind of why the second half is being retconned. Not only does this mean that Deadpool can still talk but there's a lot of potential for characters to have turned out differently.

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Old 08-30-2013, 09:52 AM   #70
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

^ Love timeline debates. So here goes...

Question: Would you agree that for every possible timeline that becomes affected by someone or something altering the past that there must have been a first time that the timeline played out at least up to the point where the thing from the future was sent back to the point in the past?

For example, in the movie Looper (which was almost good as far as how they handled the timeline, until they started contradicting themselves) Bruce Willis' character went through the first iteraction of the timeline. He closed his loop, retired, met a woman, fell in love and lived his life. In this timeline the only thing that we saw changing in the past, as far as Bruce Willis' character, was him popping into existence in the "present", being automatically gunned down by Bruce Willis' character's younger self, and that's it. That's how the loops get closed. So presumedly we can believe that young Joe (that's Bruce's character) grew up, fell in love, then got pikced up by the mob, sent back in time so his younger self could kill him and close the loop. Done, great!

But then we are shown older Joe being picked up by the mob dudes, who kill Joe's wife. Joe gets a bit mad at this and takes those guys out right before they could send him back to have his loop closed. He goes back in the hopes of changing the timeline so his wife won't be killed. Travels back, pops into existence, prevents his younger self from killing him, and boom, new timeline, right?

But wait a second...

In the original timeline old Joe just gets captured, sent back, and his loop closed. So why now does his wife get killed and he revolt, when we've already been shown that he goe back shackled in the first timeline? My only answer is that something else changed the past so the timeline with old Joe going back and preventing young Joe from killing him is different than the first one.

But the point is that there had to be a first timeline that ran through with the first iteration of events.

That's where Terminator was flawed. The original timeline had a character that couldn't exist yet. The only way John Connor could be born is if the humans sent Reese back in time and they only did that because the machines sent a Terminator back in time and the machines only did that to kill John Connor's mother, but she only became John Connor's mother because Reese was sent back, but Reese was only sent back to stop the Terminator that was sent back to kill John Connor's mother, but she only became John Connor's mother because Reese was sent back, but Reese was only sent back to stop the Terminator that was sent back to kill John Connor's mother, but she only became John Connor's mother because Reese was sent back, but Reese was only sent back to stop the Terminator that was sent back to kill John Connor's mother...

See the problem?

If you logically look at any timeline story there had to first be an original timeline that played out, at least up to the point where someone or something was sent back to change the past. From that moment on the original timeline would either:

1. Cease to exist, possibly being replaced by a new reality (changing around people).

2. Continue to play out as if the historical events were locked.

3. And/or would create an alternate timeline where the events of the changed past effect a whole new reality.

I think the area where your logic has issues is when you write:

"From Reese's pov he has already been sent back in time, but from the timeline's pov he hasn't been, so it's fine that John Connor hasn't been born yet."

But that's not accurate. In the original timeline you can't have the John Connor without first having John Connor. There has to be cause and effect. Now if they didn't make Reese John's father this would have worked (possibly), because there could have still been a John Connor in the original timeline that would grow up to become the leader, which would force the machines to send the Terminator back, which would force the humans to send Reese back to protect Sara; but still you may have had John either way. The difference is how Sara was affected and how that affected John's life, but that's similar to the first issue of having John anyway.

See I'm actually not looking at this from the point of view of the time travelor. I'm looking at it from the point of view of the timeline, starting where you have to start, the original timeline. In the case of Terminator, in the very first timeline, the original, there would never have been a John Connor, and without him everything else would not have happened. Likely the machines would have won and mankind is gone. The end...

But that doesn't make a good movie!

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Old 08-30-2013, 10:10 AM   #71
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Default Re: Guys, this happens in the middle of Origins

I don't think 6 years have passed between Wolverine undergoing the adamantium bonding process and when he confronts Stryker at Three Mile Island...

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Old 08-30-2013, 11:46 AM   #72
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Default Re: the TIMELINE thread

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Yeah that's what I was thinking, although we've really only got that wiggy statistic on the Trask Website about sentinels produced between 1973-1996, which even I'll admit isn't definitive proof. It would explain why the X-Men were practicing against sentinels in the danger room though -- that would at least be consistent.
I really like this idea.

It also seems reminiscent of Terminator, which could explain why Singer felt compelled to speak with James Cameron. Singer himself has made it seem like he showed his ideas to Cameron because he wanted Cameron's take on whether his scenario "made sense" or not. But I wonder if he was also looking for Cameron's approval on a plot that bore a lot of similarity to Terminator.
And Cameron's plot bore a lot of similarity to the original Days Of Future Past... which came out first.

I mean, I'm not claiming that Cameron "copied" it, and I understand why Singer wanted Cameron's approval or input.

But Days Of Future Past came before Terminator.

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I guess so. It seems, then, that Sentinels did exist in the 'normal' past, at least until 1996 when the program was put on ice.
Would explain why they haven't been running around during the main trilogy.

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Old 08-30-2013, 11:47 AM   #73
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Default Re: Guys, this happens in the middle of Origins

God I hate that movie.

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Old 08-30-2013, 11:48 AM   #74
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Default Re: Guys, this happens in the middle of Origins

personal opinion but I really wouldnt care if logan had adamantium claws in the past. I prefer him with them so even if the time doesnt add up, its not like everything else has so I will let it slide haha

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Old 08-30-2013, 12:42 PM   #75
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I don't think 6 years have passed between Wolverine undergoing the adamantium bonding process and when he confronts Stryker at Three Mile Island...
Yea no way. 1979 was "6 years later" after Africa. That would have been 1973, not the adamantium bonding.

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