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Old 09-01-2013, 07:51 AM   #76
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

My list for CBM villains.

1. Magneto
2. Doc Ock
3. Joker
4. Mystique
5. Prince Nuada
6. William Stryker (X2)
7. Zod
8. Lizard
9. Loki (Thor not Avengers)
10. Azazel

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Old 09-02-2013, 02:53 AM   #77
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

I don't know if he's the greatest of all-times, but he's up there for CBM villain.

Joker(TDK)
Loki
Joker(Batman)
General Zod(MOS/SMII)
Magneto
Faora
Green Goblin

Outside Comic movies you have the likes of:
Vader, Hannibal Lector, Golem, Aliens/Predators(if u wanna count these guys), etc... So, I don't think he would be the greatest of all time, but he be up there.

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Old 09-02-2013, 05:00 AM   #78
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

Well,as I said on another thread,he isn't even my favorite Joker,(Mark Hamill gets that distinction)but he was great in his own right.

My favorite villains all time would be:
1.The Emperor
2.Vader
3.General Zod (Stamp)
4.Khan (Montalban)
5.Lex Luthor (Hackman)

That's my top 5.
Honorable mention to Skeletor (Frank Langella) from MOTU movie.

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Old 09-02-2013, 09:56 AM   #79
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

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Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
No, people love Ledger because he gave a stunning performance that is already ingrained in the popular imagination, and will be for the foreseeable future. It has nothing to do with his death and I hate when people try and make the claim.
The media coverage alone (diffusion) makes it an undeniable influence. Progression of a work through related mythos is nothing to spit on either.

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Old 09-03-2013, 05:15 AM   #80
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

I think he's on the run for the best villain but i think he's on the level of these iconic villains:









When it comes to superhero movie villain it stands:
1. The Joker
2. Magneto
3. Green Goblin/ Dock Ock

I don't know where to put Loki but he won't be high in my list, he's a quite weak villain.

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Old 09-03-2013, 01:12 PM   #81
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

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I think he's on the run for the best villain but i think he's on the level of these iconic villains:









When it comes to superhero movie villain it stands:
1. The Joker
2. Magneto
3. Green Goblin/ Dock Ock

I don't know where to put Loki but he won't be high in my list, he's a quite weak villain.
Why, he's got an interesting backstory, complicated motivations, and is just fun to watch. Just because he doesn't kick people's ass all the time (comic Loki never did that either) doesn't make him a weak villain.

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Old 09-03-2013, 07:37 PM   #82
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

One of those guys is not like the other, one of those guys doesn't belong. And by "one of those guys," I mean "Voldemort," who doesn't belong anywhere near a "best villains" list.

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Old 09-03-2013, 09:17 PM   #83
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

Whether TDK's Joker is the greatest cinematic villain ever really comes down to personal opinion. I can't for the life of me be bothered to begin to compile a list of best screen villains because there are just too damn many of them, I said before it's easier to have a collective group than a ranked list. That said, I think there's something about the Joker character that makes him perhaps the greatest villain for an actor to portray. To date we've had 3 live action interpretations of the Joker - Ledger, Nicholson and Romero, each one of them memorable, two of which are considered up there with the best movie villains, you add to that Hamil's voice performance and you've got 4. That's 4 versions of the same character, each unique in their own right, each of which is loved by many people. When the character returns in a few years time like he eventually will it will be one of the most sort after roles in Hollywood. So the question I guess is not so much if TDK's Joker is the greatest cinematic villain, but rather is the The Joker character the greatest cinematic/live action villain of all time?

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Old 09-03-2013, 09:23 PM   #84
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

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Whether TDK's Joker is the greatest cinematic villain ever really comes down to personal opinion. I can't for the life of me be bothered to begin to compile a list of best screen villains because there are just too damn many of them, I said before it's easier to have a collective group than a ranked list. That said, I think there's something about the Joker character that makes him perhaps the greatest villain for an actor to portray. To date we've had 3 live action interpretations of the Joker - Ledger, Nicholson and Romero, each one of them memorable, two of which are considered up there with the best movie villains, you add to that Hamil's voice performance and you've got 4. That's 4 versions of the same character, each unique in their own right, each of which is loved by many people. When the character returns in a few years time like he eventually will it will be one of the most sort after roles in Hollywood. So the question I guess is not so much if TDK's Joker is the greatest cinematic villain, but rather is the The Joker character the greatest cinematic/live action villain of all time?
That's absolutely true, Joker has anything a good actor could desire. They can go all over the top being funny, crazy, even tragic. While rest of the characters probably need a director saying "no, no, less than that."

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Old 09-04-2013, 07:18 AM   #85
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

That's exactly right. A character like Darth Vader can really only be played a certain way, anything outside that and it's no longer Darth Vader. The Joker has so many layers available to the actor and so many ways to come at the character it's not funny.

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Old 09-04-2013, 08:13 AM   #86
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

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One of those guys is not like the other, one of those guys doesn't belong. And by "one of those guys," I mean "Voldemort," who doesn't belong anywhere near a "best villains" list.
His past is way more interesting than Loki's. The guy in his youth was really scary and the way he was able to manipulate those around him to do something no other dark wizard had the stomach for makes him particularly malicious, expecially since he did it 7 times.

When he wants to he can be scary, he can be badass,

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Why, he's got an interesting backstory, complicated motivations, and is just fun to watch. Just because he doesn't kick people's ass all the time (comic Loki never did that either) doesn't make him a weak villain.
How? He was the son of a frost giant, sure, spent milleniums living happily ever after with his adopted family and brother and after a revelation betrays everybody? I know this is generalising it a lot but for me he's just a whiny douche, he's not very interesting, in fact i saw some reviewers and friends saying he was the lowest part of The Avengers movie, i understand that though, they had too many characters to develop already, more than one or a completelly new villain would hurt that.

And i simply never understood his motivations, at first he wants revenge, in The Avengers he wants to rule, he's not even that good of a schemer, Tony Stark and Black Widow outsmarted him, even Coulson, Hulk and Hawkeye had a chance to hit him in hilarious ways.

You don't have to kick people to be a good villain, that's not why i enjoy the Joker or Dafoe's Green Goblin (not counting the suit), Loki's just nothing special in my book, his motivations change as the plot needs them to, they're almost as badly explained as Eddie Brock's and to me he never comes out as a real threat, just a punching bag for the heroes.

You can make a well developed pathetic villain but i don't think he well written enough for that to be a good excuse.

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Old 09-04-2013, 03:17 PM   #87
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

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One of those guys is not like the other, one of those guys doesn't belong. And by "one of those guys," I mean "Voldemort," who doesn't belong anywhere near a "best villains" list.
Yeah, well, ya know what they say about opinions and a**holeas, amarite?

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To alot of people, especially kids my age who grew up in Bush's America, TDK is kind of like our Woodstock. I'm not an idiot.
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #88
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

He's one of the greatest, definitely.

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Old 09-04-2013, 06:14 PM   #89
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

Uhhh...Voldemort isn't close to being as recognized as those others.

I don't think we're talking strictly how good the character is from an acting and character development standpoint. In order to be the greatest, you have to be the full package. You have to have made a mark on pop culture history and be just as recognizable as the hero, maybe more. You're film has to be a huge event in pop culture event and it has to have lasted over the years. The Darth Vader and Joker(Jack and Heath) both fit that bill. I'm not sure Voldemort does. Harry Potter is recognizable, but I don't think people of all ages would recognize Voldemort. My grandparents who have never seen Star Wars know that Vader is Star War's villain. Likewise, all ages are somewhat familiar with Joker. Thats simply not the case for Voldemort, and honestly a lot of guys mentioned. Its got to be Vader, Vito Corleone and Joker(both). For those not alive in the '80s, Batman and Jack's Joker was TDK big before TDK. Most of you don't realize that and thats why so many people couldn't see Heath in the role.

Brando's Corleone is recognized as much as the other two, but I'm not sure you'd call him the 'villain' though he is a crime lord, so I'd throw him in there even if he's not the antagonist of the film.

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Old 09-05-2013, 11:57 PM   #90
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

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That's exactly right. A character like Darth Vader can really only be played a certain way, anything outside that and it's no longer Darth Vader. The Joker has so many layers available to the actor and so many ways to come at the character it's not funny.

That’s it. The Joker is everything I like in a villain in one package. A charismatic showman who enjoys killing, taking charge and executing wacky or serious, point to prove plots. He is everything and anything. The character is the star. As you said before, Romero, Nicholson, Hamill and Ledger have all devoured the part. Ledger is my favourite version of those, and I find myself appreciating the performance and movie even more as time goes on.

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Old 09-06-2013, 12:01 AM   #91
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

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Uhhh...Voldemort isn't close to being as recognized as those others.

I don't think we're talking strictly how good the character is from an acting and character development standpoint. In order to be the greatest, you have to be the full package. You have to have made a mark on pop culture history and be just as recognizable as the hero, maybe more. You're film has to be a huge event in pop culture event and it has to have lasted over the years. The Darth Vader and Joker(Jack and Heath) both fit that bill. I'm not sure Voldemort does. Harry Potter is recognizable, but I don't think people of all ages would recognize Voldemort. My grandparents who have never seen Star Wars know that Vader is Star War's villain. Likewise, all ages are somewhat familiar with Joker. Thats simply not the case for Voldemort, and honestly a lot of guys mentioned. Its got to be Vader, Vito Corleone and Joker(both). For those not alive in the '80s, Batman and Jack's Joker was TDK big before TDK. Most of you don't realize that and thats why so many people couldn't see Heath in the role.

Brando's Corleone is recognized as much as the other two, but I'm not sure you'd call him the 'villain' though he is a crime lord, so I'd throw him in there even if he's not the antagonist of the film.
I'd argue that Michael Corleone is much more of a villain that Vito (at lease in Part 2). Vito had a sense of honor and respect that Michael didn't, Michael was infinitely more ruthless and coldhearted than his father (he ordered the murder of his own brother, Vito would have been horrified and outraged by that).

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Old 09-07-2013, 04:56 PM   #92
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

CBMs, you could make a case for it. I personally would still disagree, but one could make a case.

Cinematic period? Not by a long shot.

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Old 09-07-2013, 06:46 PM   #93
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

I'm curious to know how people are figuring out who exactly is the greatest cinema villain in their eyes.

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Old 09-07-2013, 07:58 PM   #94
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

It's gotta be Vader. The character went from unknown to iconic seemingly overnight and became the symbolic figure of the most popular film franchise of all time. Not only that but his presence spans three movies and he never overstays his welcome.

TDK Joker might be the runner up though. He's just a scary f'n character. But are we talkin villains in general or just fantasy/supernatural type villains?

edit: What makes Joker so scary is what he represents. Imagine someone that powerful, someone with all that money and influence... using all of his resources and all of his wits not for personal gain or for anyone's benefit... but to spread chaos. That's a scary thought.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:05 PM   #95
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

The best overall is probably Vader. Hannibal Lector, Norman Bates, Michael Corleone, and possibly Ledger Joker are in the next tier.

My personal favorite is probably Reverend Powell from The Night of the Hunter.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:12 PM   #96
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

Powell is great. I also love another Mitchum villain in Max Cady.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:30 PM   #97
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

Yup, I was going to say Cady as well. De Niro did a great job with him, too.

Oh, and what this thread really needs is Mola Ram.


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Old 09-07-2013, 10:34 PM   #98
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

Hardly. I've been Kenneth Branaugh play a Nazi who organizes the Final Solution that created the death camps. I've watched a mad Caligula lust after the Robe of Jesus. Let's not forget the untouchable evil of the Anti-Christ in The Omen. How do you fight against an evil nobody sees? And then there's the serial killer from Se7en, played by Kevin Spacey - who was so righteous in his horrific actions it blows the mind.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:38 PM   #99
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

I guess there are many levels here. When you speak of villians,do you mean only comic book/sci-fi? Or horror too?
Ledger's Joker is up there for me. He was brilliant. But my all time favorite is Freddy Krueger. And I mean,Freddy from the first 3 Elm Street films. In those films he is like a more sick twisted version of the Joker. He has a personality and likes watching his victims squim,both mentally and physically,before he kills them. But he is also scary and creepy as hell,not the jokester he became in later films.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:45 PM   #100
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Default Re: Is TDK's Joker the greatest cinematic villian of all time?

Oooh! I also want to mention the bad guys played by the great Eli Wallach! He was brilliant as Calvera not just because he was ruthless but he called it as he saw it in Mexico.

He was also great as the General in "Lord Jim", even though he became overshadowed by a more sinister villain, Gentleman Brown, who also called it as he saw it.

All that talk about 'a better class of criminal' and Bane's empty speeches are nothing compared to villains who can expose the deepest flaws of the heroes. Even when Jennifer Love Hewitt played the Devil I had to love that line where she said she's not evil for giving people bad deals. Instead she accuses God of making life unfair for people.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
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Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.

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