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Old 09-04-2013, 04:46 AM   #301
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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Yeah, I'm aware of that. The point I was making is that the whole scenario just made Clint look like a loser, especially when you set him up with the rest of the Avengers. He didn't get a lot of face time in the movie, period, but over half of *that* was spent needlessly serving as Loki's slave. Total screwjob on Joss' part....Clint was entirely unnecessary to Loki's plans (the only one he needed was Selvig), so Renner and Hawkeye would have been MUCH better served without that nonsense, allowing Clint more time to shine as an actual Avenger.
Without Clint, Loki's plan wouldn't have worked out as it did. Clint recruited the scientists and mercs who were needed, he planned the attack on the Helicarrier that crippled it and got the iridium that Selvig needed (Loki was just a distraction). Loki was able to control Clint's mind, but Tony only escaped by pure happenstance. Only Steve had any inherent ability to resist the spear's influence. And don't forget that Loki was able to mind**** everyone else on the team (and Fury) with the spear when he wasn't even in contact with it.


Clint nearly brought down a Helicarrier by himself with a bow and two arrows. That hardly makes him a loser.

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Old 09-04-2013, 08:24 AM   #302
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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Without Clint, Loki's plan wouldn't have worked out as it did. Clint recruited the scientists and mercs who were needed, he planned the attack on the Helicarrier that crippled it and got the iridium that Selvig needed (Loki was just a distraction). Loki was able to control Clint's mind, but Tony only escaped by pure happenstance. Only Steve had any inherent ability to resist the spear's influence. And don't forget that Loki was able to mind**** everyone else on the team (and Fury) with the spear when he wasn't even in contact with it.


Clint nearly brought down a Helicarrier by himself with a bow and two arrows. That hardly makes him a loser.
It does, next to Steve. That was my point. As you pointed out, Steve was the only one who was able to resist the Spear by sheer willpower (Tony's "out" was a physical one from the arc reactor; although, in Tony's defense, I'll point out the cutting-room floor storyboard that was just released last week that extended the Loki-Stark scene a bit, and showed Stark pretending to be mind****ed by Loki). Looking at it through Natasha's eyes, she's got to see Clint as damaged goods, a guy with lots of red in *his* ledger, too. In other words: another bad boy. Steve, OTOH, is a genuine knight in shining armor by contrast, and could literally be her redeemer. That's why I think a Cap-Widow relationship makes sense in this movie, even if it only lasts for one film.

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Old 09-04-2013, 12:45 PM   #303
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

*blink* When did Cap resist being mind controlled? I don't recall Loki ever giving him the staff poke.

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Old 09-04-2013, 02:41 PM   #304
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

Yeah, I don't remember Steve ever being put in that situation. Also, Loki was able to mess with the teams head despite being in a prison cell in another room, Clint being mind controlled is no shame. Also, it speaks a lot of Clint's badassery that Loki chose him to be his chief lieutenant.

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Old 09-04-2013, 03:48 PM   #305
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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*blink* When did Cap resist being mind controlled? I don't recall Loki ever giving him the staff poke.
He didn't. But as Xeno pointed out, Cap was the first one to realize that the Spear was trying to manipulate them all into a fight in the Helicarrier lab, meaning he was the first one to keep his wits about him in the face of Cube-fueled alien magic.

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Yeah, I don't remember Steve ever being put in that situation. Also, Loki was able to mess with the teams head despite being in a prison cell in another room, Clint being mind controlled is no shame. Also, it speaks a lot of Clint's badassery that Loki chose him to be his chief lieutenant.
Clint was ashamed of it. Even though Tasha tried to give him the reassurance speech. And the mind**** continues to have a strong residual effect on Selvig, according to reports coming from TDW, so it remains to be seen if Hawkeye has to deal with flashbacks or whatever as well.

Like I said: damaged goods. I'm not trying to hate on Hawkeye; he's always been my favorite Avenger. I'm just saying that if MCU Natasha is looking at Clint, and looking at Bucky (still remains to be seen if there's a comic-book canon relationship between her and WS), and looking at Cap, then Steve is obviously the one she'd pick to be the better man, and the one who can make her feel good about herself again and help her find a path toward redemption. Even if their relationship doesn't last beyond CATWS, Steve will at least give her something that none of the "bad boys" in her life has been able to --- self-respect and self-worth.

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Old 09-04-2013, 04:24 PM   #306
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

Natasha showed NO signs of looking down on Clint after his mind control wore off. If anything, she was very understanding (when Cap asked if Clint was ok, she immediately nodded yes). Besides, she sees herself as damaged goods as well, given her "I've been compromised" comment. If she develops a relationship with Cap, which is a big if, then it will be because of their interactions in THIS movie.

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Old 09-04-2013, 06:03 PM   #307
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

I think all Sam is trying to say, is that Cap is the "best" man, out of the three. For a woman who is struggling personally, the man who has the best chance of giving her a redeeming self image would be Mr. Rogers.

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Old 09-04-2013, 06:16 PM   #308
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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*blink* When did Cap resist being mind controlled? I don't recall Loki ever giving him the staff poke.
When they were fighting in Stuttgart, Loki put the spear to the back of Cap's neck and said, "Kneel!" Cap paused for a second, then pushed him off and kicked him. While Loki's attempt to control Cap wasn't explicitly clear, in an interview Tom Hiddleston said that Captain America was the one person he couldn't control because of Cap's special abilities.

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Old 09-04-2013, 06:26 PM   #309
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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He didn't. But as Xeno pointed out, Cap was the first one to realize that the Spear was trying to manipulate them all into a fight in the Helicarrier lab, meaning he was the first one to keep his wits about him in the face of Cube-fueled alien magic.



Clint was ashamed of it. Even though Tasha tried to give him the reassurance speech. And the mind**** continues to have a strong residual effect on Selvig, according to reports coming from TDW, so it remains to be seen if Hawkeye has to deal with flashbacks or whatever as well.

Like I said: damaged goods. I'm not trying to hate on Hawkeye; he's always been my favorite Avenger. I'm just saying that if MCU Natasha is looking at Clint, and looking at Bucky (still remains to be seen if there's a comic-book canon relationship between her and WS), and looking at Cap, then Steve is obviously the one she'd pick to be the better man, and the one who can make her feel good about herself again and help her find a path toward redemption. Even if their relationship doesn't last beyond CATWS, Steve will at least give her something that none of the "bad boys" in her life has been able to --- self-respect and self-worth.

You assume that Clint was ashamed. He seemed more angry about being used and upset about the deaths and injuries on the Helicarrier than anything else to me.

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Old 09-04-2013, 09:10 PM   #310
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

I'm sorry, but Natasha does not need a man to redeem her, that goes against everything she stands for. She would not pick one man over another because she thinks that one will make her "good" while another would keep her "bad". She's not Kate Austen.

Natasha is strong, independent, and she owns her past. She doesn't brood over all the horrible **** she's done, she works to redeem *herself*. Reducing her to someone who needs a "knight in shining armour" to save her in *any* way is insulting to her character, just like reducing her to Steve's "love interest" would be the worst choice the writers could make for her in the MCU. Even if she's still badass on the screen, this entire thread just proves that it wouldn't matter because if there is *any* romance with her and Steve then a great portion of the audience would instantly do just that, see her as solely the love interest. I really hope Marvel doesn't go there.

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Old 09-04-2013, 09:25 PM   #311
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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I'm sorry, but Natasha does not need a man to redeem her, that goes against everything she stands for. She would not pick one man over another because she thinks that one will make her "good" while another would keep her "bad". She's not Kate Austen.

Natasha is strong, independent, and she owns her past. She doesn't brood over all the horrible **** she's done, she works to redeem *herself*. Reducing her to someone who needs a "knight in shining armour" to save her in *any* way is insulting to her character, just like reducing her to Steve's "love interest" would be the worst choice the writers could make for her in the MCU. Even if she's still badass on the screen, this entire thread just proves that it wouldn't matter because if there is *any* romance with her and Steve then a great portion of the audience would instantly do just that, see her as solely the love interest. I really hope Marvel doesn't go there.
For crying out loud --- having a relationship with someone does *not* make a woman "weak." Leia has a relationship with Han and is his "love interest," and I've never heard *anybody* accuse her of being weak. Is Jean Grey weak? Is Storm weak? Catwoman? Sif? Hell, general audiences would eat up a Steve-Natasha romance, because it's two superheroes hooking up, still a relative rarity in the movies. Nobody is going to think Tasha is any less badass.

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:25 PM   #312
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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For crying out loud --- having a relationship with someone does *not* make a woman "weak." Leia has a relationship with Han and is his "love interest," and I've never heard *anybody* accuse her of being weak. Is Jean Grey weak? Is Storm weak? Catwoman? Sif? Hell, general audiences would eat up a Steve-Natasha romance, because it's two superheroes hooking up, still a relative rarity in the movies. Nobody is going to think Tasha is any less badass.
Excellent points, I completely reject the argument that just BECAUSE a female character is in a relationship that it automatically makes her weak or reduces her in some way. The problems start when that's ALL the female character is there for, or if the relationship is mishandled.

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Old 09-05-2013, 12:23 AM   #313
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:18 AM   #314
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

I am not saying that romance make a female character weak, but that the problem lies in reducing the character to the male lead's love interest, and considering that is all this thread has been about lately it seems very likely that this is how the audience would view Natasha if she did have a romance with Steve. There is a difference between Natasha having a love interest and her being reduced to one, and saying she needs Steve to redeem her or that she should be some sort of hookup for Steve before he moves on to Sharon, or that there should be a love triangle (all things I've seen mentioned, among many others, some much worse) would, IMO, be horrible ideas for her character. Ultimately this is still Steve's movie, and any romance he has it automatically going to peg the character as "Captain America's Love Interest" to many people, it's the nature of the game.

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Old 09-05-2013, 08:19 AM   #315
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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I am not saying that romance make a female character weak, but that the problem lies in reducing the character to the male lead's love interest, and considering that is all this thread has been about lately it seems very likely that this is how the audience would view Natasha if she did have a romance with Steve. There is a difference between Natasha having a love interest and her being reduced to one, and saying she needs Steve to redeem her or that she should be some sort of hookup for Steve before he moves on to Sharon, or that there should be a love triangle (all things I've seen mentioned, among many others, some much worse) would, IMO, be horrible ideas for her character. Ultimately this is still Steve's movie, and any romance he has it automatically going to peg the character as "Captain America's Love Interest" to many people, it's the nature of the game.
Black Widow's character is going to be secondary to Cap in this movie, *regardless* of whether or not there's any kind of romance involved. That's because it's Cap's movie. I wish Natasha could get her own headliner movie, but Marvel obviously isn't willing to take the gamble on a superheroine movie yet, so she's going to have to make do in this one. A couple of years ago, Feige bandied about the ideas of a Black Widow film and a Nick Fury one; since those ideas never gelled, CATWS has become sort of a melting pot for some of those plans.

And if Natasha has a fling with Steve here, I strongly doubt general audiences are going to be short-sighted enough to start accusing her of being "just" Captain America's love interest. This is her third film outing, and audiences already know full well that she wasn't "Captain America's love interest" in IM2 or TA1. They'd see this as a progression and evolution of her character within the framework of the Avengers.

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Old 09-05-2013, 01:35 PM   #316
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

Yes, she was already depicted as a capable badass in IM 2 and especially in TA. It makes no sense that audiences would suddenly see her as "just a love interest" in this movie. I agree with Cherokeesam that it could be a progression of her character evolution from TA.

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Old 09-05-2013, 02:38 PM   #317
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

I think the GA would just see it as two Avengers getting together. I don't think it will reduce her role to just "love interest", especially if she is awesome in the movie.

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:15 PM   #318
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

honestly, I just don't want her having the gigantic role she's apparently going to have in this film.

but that's just cuz I"m getting kind of burnt out on these conversations and the black widow character

I know she had a decent role in the comic arc, but this is still Cap and Buckys movie, with Cap being the primary. If he gets overshadowed, or if bucky does, by BW, I'll be very displeased.

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:20 PM   #319
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

The problem is that the odds are already stacked against her. She was amazing in the Avengers. She kicked ass, tricked Loki, saved Clint, fought aliens and closed the portal yet there was still a huge percentage of moviegoers, regular fans and professional reviewers alike, who walked out of the theatre claiming she was useless, just a pretty face and a pair of tits in a tight uniform. I don't know what movie they were watching, but I've seen this stated so many times it's painful. So many people have already reduced her to just a useless sex symbol, they don't need further ammo.

I'm sorry, I'm just very protective of our one female Avenger, how she's portrayed and how she's viewed by others. I maintain my personal opinion that this would be a bad move for her character, but clearly I'm in the minority.

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:24 PM   #320
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

I agree, I dont wanna see her and Cap together
but thats cuz id rather her n bucky get together, the comic purist in me

I don't think she was in any way useless in avengers, if anything, i think she was too useful
I pay to see superheroes and big power displays, not a chick (or dude) in ill-fitting outfits karate chop aliens

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:30 PM   #321
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I'm the opposite, her and Hawkeye are my favourites *because* they're not superpowered but still hold their own with the powerful beings.

I do agree that I wish she had a smaller role in this film, though. For one, I feel like it's a cop out, calling her the "co-lead" of a film that doesn't bear her name instead of giving her her own film, and secondly, the heart of the film should be Steve and Bucky. That's where the focus should be, not on Steve's relationship with Natasha.

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:35 PM   #322
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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The problem is that the odds are already stacked against her. She was amazing in the Avengers. She kicked ass, tricked Loki, saved Clint, fought aliens and closed the portal yet there was still a huge percentage of moviegoers, regular fans and professional reviewers alike, who walked out of the theatre claiming she was useless, just a pretty face and a pair of tits in a tight uniform. I don't know what movie they were watching, but I've seen this stated so many times it's painful. So many people have already reduced her to just a useless sex symbol, they don't need further ammo.

I'm sorry, I'm just very protective of our one female Avenger, how she's portrayed and how she's viewed by others. I maintain my personal opinion that this would be a bad move for her character, but clearly I'm in the minority.
You're not in the minority in being protective of our one female Avenger, or in wanting to see more female Avengers (or MCU heroines in general), and in seeing them with strong roles; not just super-girlfriends or sex symbols. Marvel is *definitely* missing the boat when it comes to populating the MCU with superheroines. But I just don't believe a relationship with Cap is going to damage Widow's character or the perception of her....she'll still be the badass.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:41 PM   #323
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BW being the co-lead makes perfect sense. First of all, there's her connection with Bucky, and she an Steve are both outsiders. Cap is working for SHIELD, so it makes sense that their best agent would help him. Also, being tired of conversations of a forum is NOT a valid reason for BW not to be the co-lead, that's just silly. Also, she's not going to overshadow Cap, she just isn't.

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Old 09-05-2013, 10:25 PM   #324
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

To be honest, her connection with Bucky is like the only thing that hasn't really been mentioned at all in interviews; it could be because they want to keep it a secret or that in this canon, they don't have one.

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Old 09-05-2013, 10:34 PM   #325
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To be honest, her connection with Bucky is like the only thing that hasn't really been mentioned at all in interviews; it could be because they want to keep it a secret or that in this canon, they don't have one.
I'm kind of doubting any connection between Tasha and Bucky, too. In the running gun battle on the interstate, they're both trying very specifically to blow each other's brains out, and neither seems to be particularly reluctant to do that. So I think that in and of itself shows there's no history there.

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