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Old 09-05-2013, 09:11 PM   #276
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Originally Posted by Iron_Stark View Post
My point of the post is that you want accuracy in the movie, yet want magic rings and Osama bin Mandarin.
Your point is completely wrong . . .

The problem isn't that it's not "accurate" to the comics, the problem is the deceptive marketing, trailer, advertising etc.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:18 PM   #277
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

That isn't a problem at all. It wasn't "deceptive" marketing, it was "assumptive" viewing.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:35 PM   #278
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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That isn't a problem at all. It wasn't "deceptive" marketing, it was "assumptive" viewing.
It obviously was a problem to some people. Myself included.
I'm not saying it was a "bad movie", but I hated it, and I've loved pretty much every other superhero movie I've ever seen.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:37 PM   #279
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Again, not liking the twist is not the same as the marketing "lying." A twist is supposed to be a surprise, so arguing that they marketing was deceptive is not a valid criticism at all, OF COURSE it's deceptive, that's the point.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:38 PM   #280
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

That this thread turned into another debate about the Mandarin kind of answers the question in the the title.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:41 PM   #281
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

We take marketing into account when rating films now?

That's like judging how good a Super Bowl is based on the quality of the commercials.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:42 PM   #282
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Again, not liking the twist is not the same as the marketing "lying." A twist is supposed to be a surprise, so arguing that they marketing was deceptive is not a valid criticism at all, OF COURSE it's deceptive, that's the point.
I agree. But twists can be good, or bad. They can add to a film, or they can detract massively. They can also be divisive.

So saying that "the twist ruins the movie" or something similar is a perfectly valid criticism.

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That this thread turned into another debate about the Mandarin kind of answers the question in the the title.
Yes.

Fantastic Four, Elektra etc. were bad movies, and ordinary franchises.
MCU/Iron Man has been awesome movies/series and I can see why this pisses people off.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:49 PM   #283
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

My two cents on the Twist: the strongest criticism of it is is the lack of originality. They did the same thing (albeit with less comedy) in Iron Man, and fans will it defend it endlessly, even though it is a shoddy film (it is ranked lowest on my tier of the MCU.) When one sits down and thinks about it, the Dude being the villain of the film is on the same tier as Trevor not being the villain. Accepting one and rejecting the other is arbitrary, if one is going to argue about said implications on the tone and narrative structure.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:52 PM   #284
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

No offense to anyone, but I hope I'm not the only one facepalming here at all the purist accusations.

"This isn't the comics!" "The Mandarin from the comics wouldn't work!" "You have to accept that movies are different than comics!"

That's all I keep hearing since May. These are essentially purist accusations. Since at least the dawn of the internet, the whole "this isn't the comics!" claim has become an ad hominem used to dismiss and discredit any person's arguments against unnecessary/stupid/pointless changes from the source material. Sometimes the ad hominem is used intentionally, while other times it's used subconsciously.

After noticing an increase in the use of the ad hominem as the years passed, I made a prediction. My prediction was that a day would come in which the whole "not everything can be just like the comics!" thing will be used against arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with the source material in the first place. The day Iron Man 3 was released in theatres was the day my prediction came true.

A lot of people (including me) have stated this over and over again. We were fine with the fact that the Mandarin would be radically different from the comics. We knew that going in. We knew that from the trailers. Heck, we knew that since the very first Iron Man film. We stated over and over again that all we expected was the Mandarin from the trailers. Yet we still get dismissed as purists that can't accept changes from the source material, including by Kevin Feige and Shane Black themselves. Black went as far as to mock the fans that, according to him, just wanted space rings.

It is awful to see the point that the "this isn't the comics" ad hominem has reached. A point in which it is used for any argument in general.

I'm also getting annoyed with the claim that "all movies do this". They don't. Ra's al Ghul did not become a joke after the twist and was marketed in such a way that was both intelligent and stayed true to what Ra's is all about (the idea that he lies a lot) plus paid a nice homage to Henri Ducard all at the same time. The Sixth Sense's ending was a mystery to viewers and there was proper buildup to it both in the film itself and prior it coming out. The Mandarin twist was no such thing. There were plenty of ways to market Kingsley's Mandarin while still doing the stupid twist. One way they could have done it is to market the Mandarin as more of a mystery - as "the mysterious terrorist known as the Mandarin whose face you never see and is always pulling the strings" (not the best way of wording it but you get the idea). You could have had the general audience wonder about who the Mandarin could be prior to the film coming out, with most people picturing an Osama Bin Laden archetype in their head only to be surprised when the film comes out - essentially achieving the same effect and getting across the same message. The way they marketed the Mandarin was not in such way though. Since day one, the film was marketed as IRON MAN VS. (Kingsley's) THE MANDARIN - THE MOST EPIC IRON MAN BATTLE TO DATE! They went as far as to include scenes and dialogue lines from Kingsley's Mandarin that weren't even in the movie. It was entirely false marketing. It was playing with the fans' emotions.

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Old 09-05-2013, 10:03 PM   #285
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
We take marketing into account when rating films now?

That's like judging how good a Super Bowl is based on the quality of the commercials.
Again, not the quality of the commercials, but the emphasis on content in the commercials. If Superbowl commercials said Patriots vs Cowboys and when it gets to halftime- TWIST - it's actually Patriots vs Steelers! Doesn't mean it's a bad twist in its conception. For Patriots fans, it might be kinda awesome, but for those poor saps who paid money and stayed up til midnight to see the Cowboys play...

It could have been done better relatively easily. Killian could have been more interesting than fake Mandarin, but they didn't even really bother with his motivations and scarcely touched on a vague goal. Fake Mandarin could have been sick, grotesque, pitiful, a monster of a lesser degree... as any drug addict who'd just shot someone on national TV would be... but instead he was comedic, silly. It wasn't just a twist, it was a gag. The audience believing in this sort of super-terrorist was a big gag, there was nothing at the end of that anticipation but a punchline.

That's why I think the twist was meant to T off fans though, to be divisive, to draw attention to the real life comparison and how it's not addressed. The message it sends is: "Why aren't you mad about that? Why do you blindly accept all over there, and here it's like 'no, it should be better!' ?"

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My two cents on the Twist: the strongest criticism of it is is the lack of originality. They did the same thing (albeit with less comedy) in Iron Man, and fans will it defend it endlessly, even though it is a shoddy film (it is ranked lowest on my tier of the MCU.) When one sits down and thinks about it, the Dude being the villain of the film is on the same tier as Trevor not being the villain. Accepting one and rejecting the other is arbitrary, if one is going to argue about said implications on the tone and narrative structure.
Seriously? You can't see how a twist that ratchets UP the danger and tension and deepens the story is more appealing than a twist that does the opposite? That's arbitrary to you?

And if the Dude is Stane... he was the villain from, like, the beginning, you could call that from looking at the magazine cover with both of them on it that they showed in the first three minutes, their whole relationship screamed: "I will betray you!" When he came and took out the other, less interesting villain about midway through the film (not just before the final act), that was about as much of a twist as Justin Hammer recruiting Whiplash.

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Old 09-05-2013, 10:37 PM   #286
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Again, not the quality of the commercials, but the emphasis on content in the commercials. If Superbowl commercials said Patriots vs Cowboys and when it gets to halftime- TWIST - it's actually Patriots vs Steelers! Doesn't mean it's a bad twist in its conception. For Patriots fans, it might be kinda awesome, but for those poor saps who paid money and stayed up til midnight to see the Cowboys play...
That's a brillaint analogy DrCosmic.

The Trailers, TV spots, and other marketting decieved (not lied, but deceived as they presented the Mandarin as he was in the movie but focussed and alluded to him being real and not a decoy) people into expecting to see the Cowboys but they got the Steelers. Many people got on board with the final result but for me i really wanted to see Ben Kingsleys Mandarin.

Overall though i liked Killian as the villian, The Mandarin character would've been more interesting but Killain, even though he's basically a Nygma ripoff, is probably my favourite of the Iron Man movie villains.

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That this thread turned into another debate about the Mandarin kind of answers the question in the the title.
It seems so

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Old 09-05-2013, 11:07 PM   #287
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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To me Hulk in 2003 was more of a character than any Hulk we've seen since. He emoted in that movie, the others he just smashed.
I think he showed more personality in Avengers than ever before but still we're just saying that a cup of water is closer in volume to the ocean than a single droplet is. They're still light years short of making him a true character in any case.

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Old 09-06-2013, 11:47 AM   #288
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

I sure hops they retcon the events of IM3

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Old 09-06-2013, 12:28 PM   #289
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Mandarin is done now its least to worry about what worries me is what if they continue to drop a character personality at this rate in future projects like ca-tws , GOTG and A-AOU , Ant-man ?

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Old 09-06-2013, 01:48 PM   #290
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Mandarin is done now its least to worry about what worries me is what if they continue to drop a character personality at this rate in future projects like ca-tws , GOTG and A-AOU , Ant-man ?
Italicized for specificity: what does this even *mean*?

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Old 09-06-2013, 02:20 PM   #291
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Again, not the quality of the commercials, but the emphasis on content in the commercials. If Superbowl commercials said Patriots vs Cowboys and when it gets to halftime- TWIST - it's actually Patriots vs Steelers! Doesn't mean it's a bad twist in its conception. For Patriots fans, it might be kinda awesome, but for those poor saps who paid money and stayed up til midnight to see the Cowboys play...

It could have been done better relatively easily. Killian could have been more interesting than fake Mandarin, but they didn't even really bother with his motivations and scarcely touched on a vague goal. Fake Mandarin could have been sick, grotesque, pitiful, a monster of a lesser degree... as any drug addict who'd just shot someone on national TV would be... but instead he was comedic, silly. It wasn't just a twist, it was a gag. The audience believing in this sort of super-terrorist was a big gag, there was nothing at the end of that anticipation but a punchline.

That's why I think the twist was meant to T off fans though, to be divisive, to draw attention to the real life comparison and how it's not addressed. The message it sends is: "Why aren't you mad about that? Why do you blindly accept all over there, and here it's like 'no, it should be better!' ?"



Seriously? You can't see how a twist that ratchets UP the danger and tension and deepens the story is more appealing than a twist that does the opposite? That's arbitrary to you?

And if the Dude is Stane... he was the villain from, like, the beginning, you could call that from looking at the magazine cover with both of them on it that they showed in the first three minutes, their whole relationship screamed: "I will betray you!" When he came and took out the other, less interesting villain about midway through the film (not just before the final act), that was about as much of a twist as Justin Hammer recruiting Whiplash.
Agreed, it was obvious that Jeff Bridges was going to turn out to be the villain from the first second he appeared onscreen. There was no twist there, everyone was waiting for it to happen.

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Old 09-06-2013, 02:22 PM   #292
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That's a brillaint analogy DrCosmic.

The Trailers, TV spots, and other marketting decieved (not lied, but deceived as they presented the Mandarin as he was in the movie but focussed and alluded to him being real and not a decoy) people into expecting to see the Cowboys but they got the Steelers. Many people got on board with the final result but for me i really wanted to see Ben Kingsleys Mandarin.

Overall though i liked Killian as the villian, The Mandarin character would've been more interesting but Killain, even though he's basically a Nygma ripoff, is probably my favourite of the Iron Man movie villains.



It seems so
But again, people not liking the actual twist does not make the marketing bad. The marketing did exactly what it was supposed to. People don't seem to understand the distinction. They deceived people about a twist, NO ****, that's the point.

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Old 09-06-2013, 02:40 PM   #293
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

It would be one thing if those scenes weren't in the movie at all. But they were. The Mandarin still said all those things, still blew stuff up, and was still a threat to the hero. The brawl at the end didn't play out the way people assumed it would from a 2 minute commercial.

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Old 09-06-2013, 06:29 PM   #294
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Doom.


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I sure hops they retcon the events of IM3
I sure hope not, plus they have no reason to. As far as Marvel are concerned the twist was a success.

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Old 09-06-2013, 06:37 PM   #295
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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We take marketing into account when rating films now?

That's like judging how good a Super Bowl is based on the quality of the commercials.
Why? Do the commercials tell you about how the teams are going to play or what are they going to do?

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Old 09-06-2013, 06:46 PM   #296
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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It would be one thing if those scenes weren't in the movie at all. But they were. The Mandarin still said all those things, still blew stuff up, and was still a threat to the hero. The brawl at the end didn't play out the way people assumed it would from a 2 minute commercial.
Thats why it was decieving and not lying.

Lying would means showing scenes that aren't in the film, for example. The fake Mandarin scenes were in the trailers and movie so it wasn't lying.

However, It was decieving audiences as it led people to a conclusion and assumption based on what they were permitted audiences to see. They showcased the fake Mandarin as the real Mandarin and focused majority of clips on him rather than Killian.

So they didn't lie with the advertising, they simply deceived people into thinking and expecting Ben Kingsley Mandarin as the real villain, just like Killain did by presenting the Mandarin character to the world instead of himself

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Old 09-06-2013, 07:01 PM   #297
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

so we reached the 'the trailers lied' part of the circle again? man, is this getting old.
what's next? is chris evans too skinny or should thor wear his helmet more often?

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Old 09-06-2013, 07:03 PM   #298
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so we reached the 'the trailers lied' part of the circle again? man, is this getting old.
what's next? is chris evans too skinny or should thor wear his helmet more often?
No, not that the trailers affect a film's quality but it is a fact that the trailers lied.

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Old 09-06-2013, 07:07 PM   #299
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

ahhhh....advertising! where people always tell the truth except for the one movie trailer that lied to us!

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Old 09-06-2013, 07:08 PM   #300
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Thats why it was decieving and not lying.

Lying would means showing scenes that aren't in the film, for example. The fake Mandarin scenes were in the trailers and movie so it wasn't lying.

However, It was decieving audiences as it led people to a conclusion and assumption based on what they were permitted audiences to see. They showcased the fake Mandarin as the real Mandarin and focused majority of clips on him rather than Killian.

So they didn't lie with the advertising, they simply deceived people into thinking and expecting Ben Kingsley Mandarin as the real villain, just like Killain did by presenting the Mandarin character to the world instead of himself
Well I recommend you just stay away from the television, and don't show up early to the theatre, then you never have to worry about a trailer misleading you ever again. Think of all the films you'll get to enjoy!

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ahhhh....advertising! where people always tell the truth except for the one movie trailer that lied to us!
Bwaahaha!


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