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Old 09-07-2013, 04:08 AM   #51
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
I would love it if the ending is them becoming true allies. Not any of this uneasy friendship crap of the last 25 years. Imagine if the end is something like say, some kind of powerful metahuman in Gotham, could be from Bat's rogues, up to no good. Bats comes in, sizes things up and says, "Surrender (villain name here)! Don't make me call in my friend." Of course the villain balks, says "What friend, freak?" to Batman. Supes comes crashing through the ceiling landing right next to Batman. "This friend." Side by sid shot of the two getting ready to wreck shop on the bad guys. Then I can die happy.
And I can already see the end credits song playing:
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Those who've seen The World's End would understand.

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Old 09-07-2013, 04:16 AM   #52
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

Sayeth, Whaaaaaaaaat?

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Old 09-07-2013, 08:47 AM   #53
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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He did because he had no choice... He chose the family. We saw the reaction that Superman won't do that again and will search the best option... Snyder himself said that...
That has no relevance to my point of "Batman fights death, Superman fights the impossible", because..... Superman can do the impossible!

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:08 AM   #54
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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What are you even saying right now? In this discussion, the situation is everything, and when you consider the situation and what was at stake, Superman made the right choice. Trying to separate the situation from the discussion isn't going to do anything for your argument.
I asked you when the movie said superman made the right choice and not simply the best choice. You said
1. when lives were saved
2. when the hero was shown to make the choice.
I think you need re examine the difference between best and right. If a man walks into your house and points a gun at your two kids and asks you to choose which one lives in 5 seconds or they both die. You choose the younger one(cause he seemingly has a brighter future). You have made the best choice you could. The right choice(which is to save both of them) is beyond you.

Superman saved the world and in part committed to decisive acts against his own being(confirmed by his immediate emotional response). He made the best choice he could cause the right choice, to save everyone was beyond him(this much I would agree the movie confirmed). The villain gave the hero an ultimatum much like the burglar holding two sons at gun point. If you want to suggest saving one son over another the right choice because
1. Lives were saved
2. The hero is the one making the choice
Fine, I suppose this is where we part ways.

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But he is.
This soldier clause really is weighing on you..
Tony Stark, Green Arrow, Batman(nolan), all the lanterns and the dozens of other regular superheros that have been pushed to take a life in some form or another.
Are these guys all time bombs for the simple fact that they can be described in such the same was as Snyder described superman at this point?
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What I said was the way Snyder described him made him sound like a time bomb. Read what I write.
I see.
Perhaps then it's you who should read what he wrote.

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Tension was created because the audience was unsure if Batman was capable of taking a life. We didn't know if he would be able to bring himself to kill the Joker, regardless of his actions. Superman, on the other hand, is capable of killing someone. He's done it before. And Snyder always wants us to have that thought in the back of our minds. With Batman, the writers rely on uncertainty to create tension. With Superman, that particular uncertainty doesn't exist, because we know what he's capable of.
The direction serves create uncertainty in a brand that has been soured by utter predictability.

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Personally, I think that if I have to question if Superman is going to actually go through with killing someone because of his past actions, there's a problem.
Again, not sure which superman you have been following for the past 40 some ought years but I'm fairly certain this has been the underlying status quo.

Even in the famed action #775.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:14 AM   #55
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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That has no relevance to my point of "Batman fights death, Superman fights the impossible", because..... Superman can do the impossible!
Maybe in All Star Comics but not on day one.
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Expectations for this character seem to be based on the breadth of his career.
Seems fickle imo.

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A movie about a man learning to be Superman will finally get the GA invested in the premise, while at the same time piss off people that want what they want. If only the latter group showed up for the last movie.
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Old 09-07-2013, 03:44 PM   #56
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

Not to interrupt the discussion which has nothing to do with the thread title, but I just had a thought about the villains of Superman/Batman. So everyone agrees there needs to be a secondary villain other than Lex who can provide a physical challenge for Superman but the major ones who do such as Braniac or Metallo would probably be best saved for a solo Superman movie. So what about the Elite?



Superman could decide on his policy of never killing again after the events of Man of Steel, perhaps publicly announcing it in an interview with Lois, which could lead the public to lose faith in Superman's ability to get the job done. Suddenly this new group appears who will get the job done. Superman can be busy fighting them and he asks Batman to investigate who they are and who is funding them. They are powerful enough to provide a physical challenge to both Superman and Batman at the same time and have interesting powers so the action scenes would be really cool but they also wouldn't overshadow the main villain, Lex, and they also don't require that much setting up, while also providing an interesting moral dilemma for Superman. Lex meanwhile could be running a presidential campaign based around preventing the destruction caused between superhumans, such as in Zod's invasion and the conflict between Superman and the Elite. In the end Batman could find out that Lex was behind the group and he and Superman could confront him, saying they can't prove it but they will be watching him. Also, Manchester Black is a bad-ass.


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Old 09-07-2013, 05:32 PM   #57
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Maybe in All Star Comics but not on day one.
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Expectations for this character seem to be based on the breadth of his career.
Seems fickle imo.
Yes on day one, read Action Comics #9. One of the best single issues of Superman ever, and it deals in a world where Superman isn't real, per se, and is just an idea, a character or as he is referred to in story "made up messiah". It also deals with what happens when people who only want to make a mass appeal version of the character, and create a brand over anything else and how it pollutes the essence of him.

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Old 09-07-2013, 06:43 PM   #58
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:15 PM   #59
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

Bruno Diaz resurfaces!!

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:30 PM   #60
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd View Post
Yes on day one, read Action Comics #9. One of the best single issues of Superman ever, and it deals in a world where Superman isn't real, per se, and is just an idea, a character or as he is referred to in story "made up messiah". It also deals with what happens when people who only want to make a mass appeal version of the character, and create a brand over anything else and how it pollutes the essence of him.
Guess what, the movie was made for a GA, and the GA ultimately determines whether or not it is successful. No, Superman should not be able to do ANYTHING on his first day, that's just stupid and kills any sort of tension going forward. Also, the whole "he's a messiah who can do anything" is the very reason why many people have trouble relating to him. There's is ZERO tension with your character if you can instantly say "he'll find a way, he can do anything."

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Old 09-08-2013, 07:29 AM   #61
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Guess what, the movie was made for a GA, and the GA ultimately determines whether or not it is successful. No, Superman should not be able to do ANYTHING on his first day, that's just stupid and kills any sort of tension going forward. Also, the whole "he's a messiah who can do anything" is the very reason why many people have trouble relating to him. There's is ZERO tension with your character if you can instantly say "he'll find a way, he can do anything."
Yeah, you're entirely correct. I mean, I struggle to think of how many times villains actually are defeated on film.


Oh wait, they're always defeated. All that is needed for dramatic tension is the belief, if only for a second that he hero may not prevail, even if you know he will in
the end. Every hero does anything required of them in the context of the story.

People failing to relate to a character is a failure on behalf of writers, not a failure on behalf of the character.

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Old 09-08-2013, 01:04 PM   #62
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Not to interrupt the discussion which has nothing to do with the thread title, but I just had a thought about the villains of Superman/Batman. So everyone agrees there needs to be a secondary villain other than Lex who can provide a physical challenge for Superman but the major ones who do such as Braniac or Metallo would probably be best saved for a solo Superman movie. So what about the Elite?



Superman could decide on his policy of never killing again after the events of Man of Steel, perhaps publicly announcing it in an interview with Lois, which could lead the public to lose faith in Superman's ability to get the job done. Suddenly this new group appears who will get the job done. Superman can be busy fighting them and he asks Batman to investigate who they are and who is funding them. They are powerful enough to provide a physical challenge to both Superman and Batman at the same time and have interesting powers so the action scenes would be really cool but they also wouldn't overshadow the main villain, Lex, and they also don't require that much setting up, while also providing an interesting moral dilemma for Superman. Lex meanwhile could be running a presidential campaign based around preventing the destruction caused between superhumans, such as in Zod's invasion and the conflict between Superman and the Elite. In the end Batman could find out that Lex was behind the group and he and Superman could confront him, saying they can't prove it but they will be watching him. Also, Manchester Black is a bad-ass.
I think the Elite storyline would make for a great Man of Steel stand alone sequel. The differences between Batman and Superman will be made clear in this Superman/Batman film, with Supes no doubt resembling his comic book counterpart much closer then in Man of Steel. From there, you can introduce the Elite, who think that Superman is old fashioned and out of touch.

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Old 09-08-2013, 02:46 PM   #63
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd View Post
Yeah, you're entirely correct. I mean, I struggle to think of how many times villains actually are defeated on film.


Oh wait, they're always defeated. All that is needed for dramatic tension is the belief, if only for a second that he hero may not prevail, even if you know he will in
the end. Every hero does anything required of them in the context of the story.

People failing to relate to a character is a failure on behalf of writers, not a failure on behalf of the character.
No, it's a failure of people who make the argument that Superman should be able to fine the perfect solution to a problem that he's never dealt with before, on his first day. Or that he should ALWAYS be able to get out of things without making difficult choices, not once should he have to sacrifice for the greater good, why should I care about someone that omnipotent?

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Old 09-08-2013, 05:58 PM   #64
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

Anyone think Umberto's DC casting news that's due out tomorrow has anything to do with Batman vs. Superman?
https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/376720202823512064

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Old 09-08-2013, 06:02 PM   #65
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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I think the Elite storyline would make for a great Man of Steel stand alone sequel. The differences between Batman and Superman will be made clear in this Superman/Batman film, with Supes no doubt resembling his comic book counterpart much closer then in Man of Steel. From there, you can introduce the Elite, who think that Superman is old fashioned and out of touch.
Yeah I get that but my main reasoning is I don't think WB would have the faith to feature characters who almost no one other than the people who actually read comics know about as the main antagonists. In a movie guaranteed to make money because it has both Superman and Batman in it it just seems more likely that WB would consider featuring these mostly unknown characters.

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Old 09-08-2013, 07:40 PM   #66
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

Superman vs The Elite. Never read the comic but liked the animated movie. How close was the animated movie to the comics?

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Old 09-08-2013, 08:25 PM   #67
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Anyone think Umberto's DC casting news that's due out tomorrow has anything to do with Batman vs. Superman?
https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/376720202823512064
Since SvB is the only officially announced DC project at the moment it has to be that, anything else is bonafide bull****.

Actually it is El Mayimbe so we should all take the precaution that it is bonafide bull****.

Even on the Schmoes Know podcast that El Mayimbe frequently calls on to, the crew are slightly becoming skeptical about him. Seriously some of the stories he tells make him seem really paranoid.

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Old 09-08-2013, 09:30 PM   #68
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Since SvB is the only officially announced DC project at the moment it has to be that, anything else is bonafide bull****.
That's what I thought! But it's El Mayimbe, and he likes to mislead people for attention. I really hope it's BvS related, but I guess we should be prepared to be disappointed.

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:26 PM   #69
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Superman vs The Elite. Never read the comic but liked the animated movie. How close was the animated movie to the comics?

Surprise of surprises for me, it actually did not deviate all that much. There's some extra stuff thrown in to expand the story, and they leave out Luthor being Prez, as he was at the time the story was published, and the location of the finale is changed, but other than that it's basically the same.

I am a defender of MOS, and it's climax. I found myself loving the movie despite the ending, maybe even because of it. But that does not mean it did not make me feel a little uneasy. The initial Elite story is just such a great encapsulation of what Superman is all about. I even remember visiting my parents and throwing it in the ole blu ray player and my grandma (she's a Batman fan actually) when listening to Superman's speech at the end said "I can't believe that Superman is making me want to tear up right now."

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:35 PM   #70
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

elmaybe he needs this one.

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:50 PM   #71
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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Anyone think Umberto's DC casting news that's due out tomorrow has anything to do with Batman vs. Superman?
https://twitter.com/elmayimbe/status/376720202823512064
I think it's going to be Flash casting for Arrow. Eh Maybe teases way too much, and he does get things wrong at times.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:02 PM   #72
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Eh Maybe strikes again. His tweet specifically teased a DC MOVIE casting... and his big scoop was the top contenders for a Flash TELEVISION show >:\

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FANBOYS! ARE YOU EXCITED FOR SUPERHERO MOVIE NEWS MONDAY? WE DROP #DC CASTING NEWS TOMORROW MORNING! BOOM! RT


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Old 09-08-2013, 11:02 PM   #73
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

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I think it's going to be Flash casting for Arrow. Eh Maybe teases way too much, and he does get things wrong at times.
And you're right: http://latino-review.com/2013/09/exc...tvs-the-flash/

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:06 PM   #74
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

Jolene Blalock could be a good Mercy if she was ever introduced.


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Old 09-08-2013, 11:08 PM   #75
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Um... Yeah... Jolene... Bla..lock.....

(Jayne voice) I'm going to be in my bunk.

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