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View Poll Results: Which do you like more?
Batman Begins 42 51.85%
The Dark Knight Rises 39 48.15%
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:53 PM   #76
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

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The main villain is one of the weakest parts of TDKR. More unintentionally funny than intimidating, with a plan that makes no sense at all and a really underwhelming death. And then suddenly it turned out that he's never been the main villain at all.
He was the main villain along with Talia. They were partners, he wasn't under her orders.

Hardy/Bane was ABSOLUTELY intimidating.

The plan made sense to me. And as for the above comments by Chuck Dixon...I disagree. I don't think he was manipulated by Talia. To me, a lot of stuff was just as much his plan as it was hers.

And Graham Nolan saying he didn't like Bane's mask, just tells me he's too attached to his version (a purist if you will) and can't let go of the fact that comics can't be translated completely to film. Also saying that "none of the movies have captured who Batman is" is a retarded comment. Maybe saying "havent COMPLETELY captured every aspect of Batman perfectly" then id say that's reasonable. But they haven't captured Batman? Sounds like an idiot.


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Old 09-09-2013, 11:00 PM   #77
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

I'd value the insight of a Nolan other than Graham a bit more when it comes to the subject of this movie.

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:14 PM   #78
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

Hah, me too!

This does make me think though. Hardy's Bane was pretty well received. He's mainstream now. Maybe this will mean that Bane will return to live-action in the next 15 years or so, in a more latino comic book accurate fashion. Id love to see the character be brought into future video games, animated movies, live-action film more and more to the point where he could be a classic staple along the ranks of Catwoman, Two-Face, Joker, Penguin and Riddler.

When you're in a big movie like TDKR it does well for the character who was pretty obscure beforehand.

I don't see him on screen before we see proper versions of Penguin, Riddler or even Freeze (maybe?). But I can see WB giving Bane another go before characters like Hatter, Croc, Man-Bat, etc.

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:36 PM   #79
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I feel like Hardy's Bane is definitive enough that he can be excluded from the next series. I wouldprefer Riddler, Freeze, a more dandylike Joker etc. Comicwise, I'd like to see them do more with Bane than ride the breaking gimmick.

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:40 PM   #80
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

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I'd value the insight of a Nolan other than Graham a bit more when it comes to the subject of this movie.
I think the insight of the people who created Bane is almost as good. These guys are going to want the best for their character, especially after his treatment in 1997.

They both share the same opinion about the Bane and Talia relationship. An opinion a lot of fans share, too.

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:51 PM   #81
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

That's all well and good, but it's not an opinion I share and they don't change that. I respect their opinions about the character of Bane of course, but their interpretation of an ultimately ambiguous relationship in TDKR is no more or less valid than any other fan's.

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Old 09-11-2013, 02:22 AM   #82
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

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Even Bane's creators, Graham Nolan and Chuck Dixon, thought Talia was the mastermind and Bane was the lackey:



http://www.newsarama.com/18171-bane-...ins-month.html




http://www.gothamwdeszczu.com.pl/en/...w-chuck-dixon/
No offense, but I really could care less. Dixon infuses far too much politics into his take on Batman and Graham Nolan modeled Bane after professional wrestlers. All in all, while I like KnightsEnd, (the third volume of Knightfall), the only thing about Bane that was solid in Knightfall was obviously the "break the bat" scene.

The reason writers like Paul Dini and Grant Morrison have looked down on Bane over the years is because much of Knightfall was a gimmick, crafted to cash-in on The Death of Superman craze. Dixon's plot of how Batman was defeated (he has a cold when Bane lets all the wackos out of Arkham, something done much better by Morrison only a few years prior, sans the cold) was weak, and the story was very cyclical until Bane shows up at the Batcave at the end.

Not to go on a tirade, but more than any villain in a comic book film, I think Nolan drastically improved Bane. I considered Bane an A-lister for breaking the Bat, but everything about that story until he does just that feels like padding and the Mexican wrestler outfit always was snicker-inducing.

Honestly, I wish DC would use the mask from TDKR, as well as the character. Dixon and Graham Nolan, whether as a knockoff of Doomsday or not, created an iconic moment. The movie actually created a great story around that moment which elevates it far more.

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Old 09-11-2013, 06:48 AM   #83
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

^ Great post and I agree. The counterpoint to that is usually that comic book Bane is superior because he's more of a one man sheer force of will, but he always felt like more of a plot device in Knightfall than a character to me. Especially with the hackneyed "I dreamt of a bat" thing.

I love Vengeance of Bane though for the most part though. The idea of Bane serving out the prison sentence for his revolutionary father is great, and I think it's kind of cool that Bane is the revolutionary himself in TDKR. And he's been portrayed as a terrorist and a LOS collaborator in the comics before too.

Honestly, I really felt the movie drew a lot on the source material for Bane but put all these little bits and pieces in a blender and came up with something cool and different. I just think it's cool that they managed to do that with a C (B at best) villain with very few total comic appearances in the grand scheme of things and make him feel like an A villain.

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Old 09-11-2013, 10:12 AM   #84
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

I can take rises over Batman Begins any day... It's a great and respectful ending to Bruce's journey (Yes guys it's more respectful and a lot more mature for a character to move after he uses his obsession to help people), it is better shot and the story has more stakes and is more serious.

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Old 09-11-2013, 11:51 AM   #85
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

I think how Bane defeated Batman in the Comics was very interesting and well done, he did it psychologically before beating him phisically, the parts where he had his 3 henchmen fight him alone each at their time was also very entertaining.

From interviews i see Christopher Nolan thought the same thing about Bane, it's just a shame he has almost never been used properly in the comics after Knightfall. I think The Dark Knight Rises brought Bane into the mainstream and his mask is starting to get iconic.

However, if they use him in another film i would like them to aproach him as an oposite of Batman, in B&R he was an henchman, in TDKR he was a terrorista who tested Batman to his limits, in the next film i would like him to be somebody who like Bruce has spent many years perfecting his fight style, and look a little more military.

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Old 09-11-2013, 12:28 PM   #86
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Nolan's Bane, his mask and outfit specifically, should be used in the comics from now on instead of the Luchadore mask. I like the Mexican wrestling style as im a fan of that stuff but it's very 90s now. Nolan actually improved the character IMO.

The Vengeance of Bane stuff is cool. His whole prison origin is awesome and the back breaking in Knightfall is iconic. I also like how Nolan drew from the Bane-Talia-Ra's connection. But the rest of Knightfall was always MEH to me. Never liked how he was in animation/video games. And I haven't read anything great about Bane in the comics since the 90s. So they should move on, and evolve the character in the source material by going with Nolan's version.

Im pretty sure I saw some recent pics of how theyre changing Bane's outfit in the comics bit by bit. It's like a cross between Hardy's Bane and classic Bane. I like that but they should just use Hardy's mask. Just everything basically.

I don't really care for Chuck Dixon that much to be honest.

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Old 09-11-2013, 03:27 PM   #87
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I prefer the Nolan style mask as well. In profile, it gives Bane a more monstrous profile. (Plus an armored vest and heavy coat are good tactical sense vs a leotard or muscle shirt.) I am thinking of the shots of Bane staring out from the cell, where he's giving Bruce the speech about hope. As I've said numerous times, I feel like this Bane was Bruce's opposite in terms of origins, though that's were the divergence between the characters comes in.

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Old 09-11-2013, 05:17 PM   #88
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

The mask is the only thing about Bane that Nolan improved over the comic book version. That is one thing from the movies they should adapt into the comics.

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No offense, but I really could care less.
I'm not asking you to care. I'm showing that Bane's creators agree with the general consensus. Bane was second in command to Talia. She was the mastermind.

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Dixon infuses far too much politics into his take on Batman .
And Nolan doesn't lol? Sorry but you lost me there when you criticize Dixon for that.

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Old 09-11-2013, 06:42 PM   #89
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

Talia being a mastermind/string puller/whatever you want to call it doesn't negate the fact that Bane was the strategist who was in charge of the day to day operation and figuring out all the logistics of everything- which fits his archetype as tactically brilliant mercenary (TDKR wasn't the first medium to characterize him as a merc). To me Bane was the artist and Talia was like his muse. She was the devil whispering in his ear, but at the end of the day nothing that happened in TDKR could've happened if not for Bane taking action. He was hired brains and muscle (even though he was working out of devotion and not for money), not just hired muscle. That's a key thing for me. If he had just been hired muscle with the implication that Talia was the true brains behind the operation, then I'd have been upset too.

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Old 09-11-2013, 07:31 PM   #90
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

Like I've been repeating a numerous times, some fans just can't connect with this evolved idea of being Batman that was shown in TDKR that naturally, they would search for reasons on why they think this film sucks, and Talia sharing the leadership with Bane is one of those points that usually gets the flak.

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Old 09-11-2013, 07:41 PM   #91
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Like I've been repeating a numerous times, some fans just can't connect with this evolved idea of being Batman that was shown in TDKR that naturally, they would search for reasons on why they think this film sucks, and Talia sharing the leadership with Bane is one of those points that usually gets the flak.
If apologists would stop conjuring up false arguments for why people didnt like things, this would be a much nicer place.

Ok, not really, but still...people don't have to "search" for any reason to dislike this movie.

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Old 09-11-2013, 07:49 PM   #92
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

The claim that Bane was merely Talia's henchman is a knee-jerk reaction, if you ask me. It's preciesly the same reaction I had when I first saw the film and it's mainly because of the moment that Talia's reveal comes in. When you figure in that Bane also gets blown to bits soon after the reveal, the last bit clicks into place.

And yet, when you stop and think about it, it's the sort of thing that in hindsight is not as simple as it seems. Like others have said, the exact nature of Bane and Talia's relationship (as leaders of the remaining LoS) is left rather ambiguous, but the following post makes a vital observation:

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Talia being a mastermind/string puller/whatever you want to call it doesn't negate the fact that Bane was the strategist who was in charge of the day to day operation and figuring out all the logistics of everything- which fits his archetype as tactically brilliant mercenary (TDKR wasn't the first medium to characterize him as a merc). To me Bane was the artist and Talia was like his muse. She was the devil whispering in his ear, but at the end of the day nothing that happened in TDKR could've happened if not for Bane taking action. He was hired brains and muscle (even though he was working out of devotion and not for money), not just hired muscle. That's a key thing for me. If he had just been hired muscle with the implication that Talia was the true brains behind the operation, then I'd have been upset too.
This is a very important distinction to make, because it was not as if Bane's way of going about his activities in TDKR was to simply punch things or throw rocks at them. He had a very methodical and precise way of going about things, which underlines the fact that he wasn't mere muscle, regaradless of what the Talia reveal supposedly proves.

I've also grown to appreciate the reveal because it gives depth to Bane as a character - he's not just this methodical and brutal monster. Like BatLobster mentioned earlier, the 'bat dream' from the comics always seemed rather forced and while the idea that Bane came to Gotham to prove that he was top dog (like he did in Pena Duro) was interesting because of his prison background, it's one of those things that feel less compelling the more you think about them.

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Old 09-11-2013, 07:58 PM   #93
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

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^ Great post and I agree. The counterpoint to that is usually that comic book Bane is superior because he's more of a one man sheer force of will, but he always felt like more of a plot device in Knightfall than a character to me. Especially with the hackneyed "I dreamt of a bat" thing.
I disagree. I hear people say that a lot but I think there is a world of difference between Bane in Knightfall and, for example, Doomsday in Death of Superman.

Doomsday was literally just a big monster with no character whatsoever that popped out of nowhere and killed Superman. It was an entire plot device to get Superman killed and to get people in real life and in the DC universe to react to that. On the other hand, Bane studied Batman for months and looked for whatever weaknesses he has, whatever his strengths were, what his identity could possibly be, and then came up with a complete tactical plan to beat him down. He also had an actual character - having full respect for those who defeated him in battle, having a philosophy (i.e. "breaking a man is worse than killing him"), etc. - and the story of Knightfall was pitched more around the idea "What if Batman encountered someone who is his physical and mental match?", whereas Death of Superman was more pitched around the idea "What if Superman died and how can we kill him off?"

In other words, I feel Bane has earned the right to do to Batman what he did. He beat him fair and square with no deus ex machina plot devices. I don't think it's fair to call him a plot device due to that. The same can't be said about other plot devices (such as Doomsday) IMO.

Also, the concept of Bane didn't come out of nowhere either. The Venom drug appeared in 2 stories prior to Knightfall, one of which had Batman addicted to the drug (Batman: Venom). Bane also played a larger role in the story of Knightfall after the back-break than Doomsday did in Death of Superman after Superman's death. It wasn't until Azrael's defeat of Bane when Bane was no longer important but that happened a while after the bat-break.

I know I turned this into a Bane vs. Doomsday debate a bit but I felt it was the best way to defend Bane.

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Old 09-11-2013, 08:05 PM   #94
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I'm not conjuring any false arguments, it's just the way I see it. Most of the times I see the complaints includes the reasoning that Batman wouldn't do this and wouldn't do that and that's what I'm talking about: the version that Nolan and co. presented in this movie that some fans just can't connect.

How the story in this film is presented and executed is an entirely different matter, and if that would be the main point of the reasons why someone dislikes this film, then I couldn't argue because there might be some points in there that I would agree to.

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Old 09-11-2013, 08:39 PM   #95
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There is one moment after the Talia reveal that solidifies that Bane is not just some henchman for her. It's when she tells him to keep Bats alive so he can feel the fire then says goodbye to Bane. What does he do? He doesn't obey orders, he's his own man, and he tries to blow Batman's head off anyhow "we both know that I have to kill you now...you'll just have to imagine the fire".

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Old 09-11-2013, 08:42 PM   #96
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Aware me on comics Venom. Was the stuff invented prior to the actual character of Bane, or was the Knightfall storyline already in the pipeline?

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Old 09-11-2013, 08:54 PM   #97
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

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There is one moment after the Talia reveal that solidifies that Bane is not just some henchman for her. It's when she tells him to keep Bats alive so he can feel the fire then says goodbye to Bane. What does he do? He doesn't obey orders, he's his own man, and he tries to blow Batman's head off anyhow "we both know that I have to kill you now...you'll just have to imagine the fire".
Yeah because Talia was so going to find out Bane disobeyed her orders when he believes they're all going to die in 11 minutes.

If that wasn't going to happen I bet he would have obeyed what ever she told him. It's more the fact that she told Bane what to do in the first place that implies she is used to giving commands like this.

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Old 09-11-2013, 11:32 PM   #98
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Default Re: Batman Begins v.s The Dark Knight Rises

BatmanBeyond...get outta my head!

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Old 09-12-2013, 12:21 AM   #99
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Since Bane had been beaten by the reveal, it was never an issue with me. In the days leading up to the film, I called that Batman would defeat Bane while Catwoman killed him.

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Old 09-12-2013, 12:56 AM   #100
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The Dark Knight Rises for me.

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