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Old 09-20-2013, 06:22 AM   #726
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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It absolutely raises questions.

Because if Cyclops and Jean Grey are brought back with no other explanation other than "time travel, herp derp", then it brings into question the validity of the entire main trilogy, and what is and isn't what actually happened anymore.

Basically, the course of events spanning the entire trilogy is now tossed out.
The future validity of the original trilogy was called into question the second its events, and everything post 1973, were determined to be the cause of the dystopian future the X-Men are trying to avoid.

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And Singer said that's not what he's doing.
No, that's not what he said. He's said he's not ignoring any of the films, and he's not. They are still in continuity, but they are part of a problem continuity. In order to fix a problem, you have to acknowledge it exists in the first place. And there will be fixing. That is the entire point of the story. What will be fixed, however, remains to be seen.

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Old 09-20-2013, 06:35 AM   #727
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Correct me if I'm wrong folks, but didn't Singer originally have some big plans for Scott in his intended third X-Men film before he left the franchise back then to make Superman?

I mean, with the way that he left X2, with Logan making it a point and saying that Jean chose Scott, along with how we got a moment with Scott and a unconscious Professor X in X1, with Scott saying that he would look after the X-Men and the school's students should anything happen to Xavier, it just made me think that Scott was intended to have a much bigger role in Singer's version of X3, especially with Emma Frost being written into the film.

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Old 09-20-2013, 06:44 AM   #728
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Supposedly, Logan would a realtively smaller part in X3 and Scott would build the Danger Room, obsessed with perfecting the team after Alkali lake. And he'd rise to be the leader of the X-Men.

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Old 09-20-2013, 06:47 AM   #729
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Correct me if I'm wrong folks, but didn't Singer originally have some big plans for Scott in his intended third X-Men film before he left the franchise back then to make Superman?
Nothing was ever confirmed, at least not back then.

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I mean, with the way that he left X2, with Logan making it a point and saying that Jean chose Scott, along with how we got a moment with Scott and a unconscious Professor X in X1, with Scott saying that he would look after the X-Men and the school's students should anything happen to Xavier, it just made me think that Scott was intended to have a much bigger role in Singer's version of X3, especially with Emma Frost being written into the film.
Haha. Well, it wouldn't be harder for Cyclops to have a bigger role in Singer's film than in The Last Stand. That said, I don't think Emma Frost would have had anything to do with it, as she would have been older, and possibly a former love interest of Xavier's.

It has since been revealed, however, in interviews with X2 writer Mike Dougherty, that some of the ideas being tossed around for Cyclops in Singer's version of X-Men 3 are that a guilt-ridden Cyclops would have been responsible for building the Danger Room, pushing the X-Men to train harder, as if maybe the X-Men had been more prepared Jean wouldn't have died. That tidbit alone sounds like a better follow up than "Scott's a changed man..." *poof* and that he would have had a better role in Singer's X-Men 3.

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Old 09-20-2013, 06:54 AM   #730
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Supposedly, Logan would a realtively smaller part in X3 and Scott would build the Danger Room, obsessed with perfecting the team after Alkali lake. And he'd rise to be the leader of the X-Men.
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Nothing was ever confirmed, at least not back then.



Haha. Well, it wouldn't be harder for Cyclops to have a bigger role in Singer's film than in The Last Stand. That said, I don't think Emma Frost would have had anything to do with it, as she would have been older, and possibly a former love interest of Xavier's.

It has since been revealed, however, in interviews with X2 writer Mike Dougherty, that some of the ideas being tossed around for Cyclops in Singer's version of X-Men 3 are that a guilt-ridden Cyclops would have been responsible for building the Danger Room, pushing the X-Men to train harder, as if maybe the X-Men had been more prepared Jean wouldn't have died. That tidbit alone sounds like a better follow up than "Scott's a changed man..." *poof* and that he would have had a better role in Singer's X-Men 3.
Wow, all of that definitely sounds better than what we eventually got in X3.

Does anyone know though if Scott being killed off and having reduced time in the third film had more to do with James being tied up with SR, thus scheduling conflicts, or if it was something that Fox wanted to from the start due to them thinking that Cyclops was expendable.

I mean, if James didn't star in SR, would he have had a larger role in X3 and not be killed off?

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Old 09-20-2013, 07:01 AM   #731
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Supposedly, Logan would a realtively smaller part in X3 and Scott would build the Danger Room, obsessed with perfecting the team after Alkali lake. And he'd rise to be the leader of the X-Men.
Logan was never gonna have a small role, David hayter who was the first to work on the scripts for X1 and X2 and already has spoken of plans for wolverine in X3, according to hayter he loves wolverine and his role in X3 was going to be something like him trying to wok out if he was more animal or man and there would have been a moment where he has a chance to kill jean/Phoenix but can't do it because he loves her, hayter didn't mention he's plans for other characters

Its fair to be say we don't know what cyclops role would have been in singers x3, we don't know if they would have found a way to keep puttng him aside for wolverine like the previous 2 movies, it's all speculation really

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Old 09-20-2013, 07:10 AM   #732
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I'm going by what Singer intended. And I did say "relatively smaller", not small.

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Old 09-20-2013, 07:16 AM   #733
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Wow, all of that definitely sounds better than what we eventually got in X3.

Does anyone know though if Scott being killed off and having reduced time in the third film had more to do with James being tied up with SR, thus scheduling conflicts, or if it was something that Fox wanted to from the start due to them thinking that Cyclops was expendable.

I mean, if James didn't star in SR, would he have had a larger role in X3 and not be killed off?
It's possible Marsden would have had a larger role, if he hadn't signed on to Returns, but it's hard to say how big that role would have been, especially with Singer gone and Fox at its worst. Fox didn't even want to follow up on the Phoenix storyline. Rothman had to be convinced by Kinberg and Penn to do it, if that gives you any idea how completely stupid the studio was at the time.

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Old 09-20-2013, 08:35 AM   #734
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I honestly believe Fox/Singer don't know what they are doing with this franchise after DoFP. I think they've tossed around some ideas, but nothing is settled. They want to keep their options open. That's why there is a good chance Famke and Marsden make cameos at the end, further convoluting things in the timeline, but presenting an avenue for their return. They want to keep their options open for the story to go in a number of directions, but there won't be a definitive direction given the uncertainty with the cast/story going forward. That's why X-Force is a potential stop gap, and offers audiences a break from the usual.

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It's possible Marsden would have had a larger role, if he hadn't signed on to Returns, but it's hard to say how big that role would have been, especially with Singer gone and Fox at its worst. Fox didn't even want to follow up on the Phoenix storyline. Rothman had to be convinced by Kinberg and Penn to do it, if that gives you any idea how completely stupid the studio was at the time.
Actually, Rothman was right for the wrong reasons. Phoenix could have been saved for X4, and Singer wanted to do two films back to back before SR. Obviously Rothman wasn't thinking about X-4 at the time, but at least the Phoenix would not have been butchered had they just focused on the cure on the battle without Phoenix, and maybe they would have kept on Ratner to do X4, or Singer may have come around, given that SR was a financial disappointment. Imagine that? We wouldn't be talking about Origins or The Wolverine if that were the case.


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Old 09-20-2013, 12:04 PM   #735
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I agree, no plans have been set in stone beyond this film, mostly because Fox is not as good as Marvel in making these movies. If they actually did have plans, there never would have been continuity errors to begin with.

I think it's possible that a lot of the altered timeline can be explained with a simple voice-over and montage of footage from the original trilogy, particularly X-3, with some new footage inserted to show what changed...

This could be the opening of X4, with some comment about time (similar to the mutation VO in X1). The montage with new footage could show how outcomes of certain events were changed and set-up X4. If they don't undo X3, they can insert flashes of Cyclops unconscious in a hospital room. And a shot of him appearing in the final battle... possibly talking Jean back from insanity, cut to a few years later and we begin...

That being said, you can still do either another First Class film, that now matches Continuity with X4, OR you can include that cast in Flashback sequences or memories in a current X4. It's all speculation at this point, but sometimes speculating the possibilities can be fun.

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Old 09-20-2013, 01:32 PM   #736
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

It doesn't need to be shown or explained what changes after 1973. We'll know by the events that happen during the new future. If Jean and Scott are there at the end, you know the events of X2/3 have changed. It's an easy concept.

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Old 09-20-2013, 01:37 PM   #737
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I think ideally Fox would like to have their cake and eat it too. If they think they can make both FC 3 and X4 and make profits from them, they'll make them. I think the difference though is that that a third FC film is almost a sure thing at this point. If Fox has Fassbender, McAvoy and Lawrence on board for a #3, it's as good as made, especially because of Lawrence since -- deserved or not -- she is at the top of the casting lists these days.

I also see no reason to think that bringing the OT cast back was anything other than Singer's idea based on the plot he had in mind. I don't think Fox had any grand plans to return to the OT cast: I think in the wake of X3 they were hoping to create a bunch of Origins-esque spinoffs, but backed off when they realized the only character they had developed enough was Wolverine, at which point the plans for the OT cast were in limbo.

I do, however, think that Fox would like nothing more than to make as many profitable X-films as possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if Singer's storyline has Fox thinking they can find a way to use both casts in the future.

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Old 09-20-2013, 02:27 PM   #738
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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I think ideally Fox would like to have their cake and eat it too. If they think they can make both FC 3 and X4 and make profits from them, they'll make them. I think the difference though is that that a third FC film is almost a sure thing at this point. If Fox has Fassbender, McAvoy and Lawrence on board for a #3, it's as good as made, especially because of Lawrence since -- deserved or not -- she is at the top of the casting lists these days.

I also see no reason to think that bringing the OT cast back was anything other than Singer's idea based on the plot he had in mind. I don't think Fox had any grand plans to return to the OT cast: I think in the wake of X3 they were hoping to create a bunch of Origins-esque spinoffs, but backed off when they realized the only character they had developed enough was Wolverine, at which point the plans for the OT cast were in limbo.

I do, however, think that Fox would like nothing more than to make as many profitable X-films as possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if Singer's storyline has Fox thinking they can find a way to use both casts in the future.
this ^^

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Old 09-20-2013, 02:28 PM   #739
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

It also appears that this movie is trying to wrap up most of the loose ends, like the cure, Xavier, and the fates of other featured mutants from the OT. There is no indication whatsoever that Fox believes actors like Paquin, Ashmore, and Cudmore can carry the franchise going forward, as they are supporting players once again. Most of the new characters being introduced are supporting Z-list mutants that may or may not be featured in X-Force or other installments. Outside of Jackman and Berry, who are both pushing 50, there is no indication that Fox intends to move forward with that core, none of whom are under contract. Marsden cannot headline a major tentpole movie either, since his career hasn't exactly taken off since the OT. Collectively, you have a movie there, but you need to have them all back, not just Jackman and select others.

Based on the comic-con montage, Magneto's line of "Ending this war before it begins," indicates that Magneto is trying to stop the war he started in the OT. So I believe everything from the OT is up in the air in terms of the picking and choosing. They may stick with some stuff, or they may toss that narrative out entirely and reboot in the new timeline. Anything is possible. I think its foolish to interpret Singer's statements as black and white. There is clearly a lot of grey area in all the comments he's made thus far.


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Old 09-20-2013, 02:34 PM   #740
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

i think magneto means they had to stop the creation of the sentinels in the 70s which will stop the future from becoming mutants being captured by sentinels, i don't think he meant that he was the one that had to be stopped because of his future deeds

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Old 09-20-2013, 02:56 PM   #741
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

The war is pretty much on-going since 1973, or is at least the starting point prior to escalation. That's why Jackman goes back there. To stop the war from the beginning. The war didn't start when the advanced Sentinels started killing off mutants in the future. All the events leading up to that is what Magneto must be referring too. I believe that line is a self acknowledgement that Magneto has made some mistakes in the past and will have to do things differently for a better future. Even Xavier, with his "lead me/guide me." I believe they envision a profoundly different future at least in terms of the outcome of certain events.


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Old 09-20-2013, 03:12 PM   #742
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I imagine magneto in the future will still believe his view that mutants are the future and won't change his mind to the view that xavier was right so will have to stop himself

I'm expecting a different point of view in the future from mags and xavier, was magneto right all along that they would never have been accepted or would xavier have been right

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Old 09-20-2013, 05:25 PM   #743
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I think Magneto's line is pretty ambiguous, especially because don't know for sure what the future team is trying to target in 1973 -- we think it's sentinels, but that's just a guess. I think both the above interpretations are good ones.

I wouldn't be surprised if Magneto's had a change of heart though. Personally I got the sense from the teasery footage that Future Magneto is old and tired. Granted, that's probably related to the fact that Ian IS old and a bit tired, but he really seemed like a sad old man weighed down by regret.

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Old 09-20-2013, 11:18 PM   #744
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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I honestly believe Fox/Singer don't know what they are doing with this franchise after DoFP. I think they've tossed around some ideas, but nothing is settled. They want to keep their options open.
They will probably wait for the box-office performance of DOFP first.
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I think ideally Fox would like to have their cake and eat it too. If they think they can make both FC 3 and X4...
Ummm do you mean X5?

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Old 09-20-2013, 11:33 PM   #745
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Honestly, considering that Singer mentioned that he had talked with James Cameron regarding the aspects of time-traveling, I don't think it's going to be a simple case of Logan just going back to his past body, where the only thing that ends up changing in the end is ensuring that the Sentinels don't reek havoc on the future like they do at the beginning of the film.

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Old 09-21-2013, 03:24 AM   #746
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

I agree with those thinking x3 will be in the mix in this film, I doubt it can be erased fully!

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Old 09-21-2013, 06:22 AM   #747
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

edit - double

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Old 09-21-2013, 06:24 AM   #748
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

Scott having a larger role in Singer's X3 is a no brainer, although Dougherty's pitches may not have come to fruition.

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The future validity of the original trilogy was called into question the second its events, and everything post 1973, were determined to be the cause of the dystopian future the X-Men are trying to avoid.



No, that's not what he said. He's said he's not ignoring any of the films, and he's not. They are still in continuity, but they are part of a problem continuity. In order to fix a problem, you have to acknowledge it exists in the first place. And there will be fixing. That is the entire point of the story. What will be fixed, however, remains to be seen.
Exactly this. The validity of the OT has to come into question. It's a necessity of the story.

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Old 09-25-2013, 04:12 PM   #749
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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Scott having a larger role in Singer's X3 is a no brainer, although Dougherty's pitches may not have come to fruition.



Exactly this. The validity of the OT has to come into question. It's a necessity of the story.

Honestly, this isn't a retcon and if Wolverine succeeds, then it's not a time loop either. The OT had to happen in one timeline in order for events to change but that also changes the present timeline.

For instance, we know that Stryker is involved but if he's killed or his mind is opened, than it's likely that Deadpool will still be able to talk and Jean will have never died.

Also, if Wolverine convinces Magneto to work with Xavier, then X1 and X3 never happened either... at least not how we remember them.

But things did have to turn out the way they did in order for Wolverine to be sent back in time in the first place so it's obvious that the older films are still in continuity. It's not ignoring the previous films, it's them setting up the current timeline.

Also, who needs Stryker when you can have Cameron Hodge and Donald Pierce as the human big bads? Who needs Magneto to be a villain rather than anti-hero when you can have Sinister, Selene, Emplate, Stryfe, Omega Red, Daken, Proteus, X-Cutioner, Bianca LaNeige, and Apocalypse to show why human fear mutants in the first place? And who knows if DOFP will set up Bastion or what happens to Sabertooth in this altered timeline?


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Old 09-26-2013, 12:24 PM   #750
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Default Re: "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 1

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I think ideally Fox would like to have their cake and eat it too. If they think they can make both FC 3 and X4 and make profits from them, they'll make them. I think the difference though is that that a third FC film is almost a sure thing at this point. If Fox has Fassbender, McAvoy and Lawrence on board for a #3, it's as good as made, especially because of Lawrence since -- deserved or not -- she is at the top of the casting lists these days.

I also see no reason to think that bringing the OT cast back was anything other than Singer's idea based on the plot he had in mind. I don't think Fox had any grand plans to return to the OT cast: I think in the wake of X3 they were hoping to create a bunch of Origins-esque spinoffs, but backed off when they realized the only character they had developed enough was Wolverine, at which point the plans for the OT cast were in limbo.

I do, however, think that Fox would like nothing more than to make as many profitable X-films as possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if Singer's storyline has Fox thinking they can find a way to use both casts in the future.
FOX likes to make money, just like any studio. You don't spend the money and the time in logistics of getting all of these major actors together again purely based on a 'story whim.' There are always industrial considerations. And First Class made less than any other X-Men film relative to its cost. Where do you go from there? You hire back and repair relations with the guy that started it all. He gets the original cast back. Boom - you have instant (nearly) guaranteed blockbuster. Pretty simple logic, methinks.

I don't see a traditional First Class sequel happening beyond this...then again, Marvel's attempting a similar scenario, testing the market to see if 'solo' films work after The Avengers. I just don't see a First Class direct sequel having the same draw -- the anticipation's just not there. FOX knows this -- thus DOFP. They 'test' for these kinds of things, you know...

Is this project partially about giving Singer a chance to do something a little more fulfilling as a climax for his universe of films? Sure, a bit of ego's involved here (isn't it everywhere?) ...But it doesn't mean he'll do exactly what he was going to do with them eight years ago, either.

Bottom line is, if DOFP 'works' as a good story, general audiences won't care whether it's a 'retcon' or semi-'reboot.' They want to be entertained. And if a filmmaker can do that while simultaneously playing 'meta' with the film series within the narrative itself, it becomes even more meaningful!


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