The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > General Movies > Marvel Films

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-21-2013, 07:50 PM   #26
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,216
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Also, you stick something like "from the studio that brought you the Avengers, and the Iron Man trilogy" in front of it, and at least some people are going to check it out. I'd love to see a Captain Marvel film. However, I think that Black Widow is actually the most obvious choice, and the one in the best position to succeed at least at the moment, with Carol being a close second.

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 07:55 PM   #27
Kahran Ramsus
Side-Kick
 
Kahran Ramsus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 4,637
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
Also, you stick something like "from the studio that brought you the Avengers, and the Iron Man trilogy" in front of it, and at least some people are going to check it out. I'd love to see a Captain Marvel film. However, I think that Black Widow is actually the most obvious choice, and the one in the best position to succeed at least at the moment, with Carol being a close second.
One big advantage that Black Widow has is that she is already well known with two major successful films under her belt already. There isn't much selling that needs to be done to get people in the theaters.

Ms. Marvel is more of a traditional superhero though. A Black Widow film would likely be (and should be) more of a James Bond style spy thriller.


Last edited by Kahran Ramsus; 09-21-2013 at 07:59 PM.
Kahran Ramsus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 08:22 PM   #28
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,216
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
One big advantage that Black Widow has is that she is already well known with two major successful films under her belt already. There isn't much selling that needs to be done to get people in the theaters.

Ms. Marvel is more of a traditional superhero though. A Black Widow film would likely be (and should be) more of a James Bond style spy thriller.
Exactly.

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 08:41 PM   #29
Shazam
Side-Kick
 
Shazam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,785
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
Comic books are not a genre, they are a medium. Same with novels.

Katniss Everdeen is the same kind of heroic action figure that you would expect to see in a female led film based off of a comic book.
"genre" ...."medium"......whatever....you know what I'm talking about.

And there are lots o heroic figures in novels that you can find in comics over the years.....

But some folks still poo poo comics as "not serious" and prefer novels...

Shazam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 08:44 PM   #30
Shazam
Side-Kick
 
Shazam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,785
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Not true.
1. Katniss doesn't get into many fights, they are all very short, and she doesn't win any on her own, she is saved more often than not, and her ultimate victory is not achieved through combat at all.
2. Katniss has a very angry unheroic attitude, and only deals with people because she's forced to.
3. Katniss is driven entirely by caring for her closest friends, her sister, the little girl that died, eventually Peetah. She could give a flip about the greater good, that's what makes her interesting.

The most compelling things about Katniss are in complete contrast with the superhero genre. The only thing she has in common with any female superhero is two x chromosomes. And in mystique's case, the same actress.
Sounds like the typical "anti-hero"

Shazam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 08:49 PM   #31
Kahran Ramsus
Side-Kick
 
Kahran Ramsus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 4,637
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Some folks probably think that while liking films like Road to Perdition and A History of Violence, not knowing they were comic books.

Besides, there is no point in Marvel trying to woo those people that just flat out won't give costumed superheroes a chance. It is an audience they will never get.

A female superhero film isn't going to bring in this large new audience either. But there is no reason a Ms. Marvel film can't pull in most of the same crowd Thor does. She is almost certainly more marketable than Ant-Man is.


Last edited by Kahran Ramsus; 09-21-2013 at 08:57 PM.
Kahran Ramsus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2013, 10:01 PM   #32
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,216
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

A Black Widow movie should be more like a Bond/Bourne spy thriller anyway, just a tad bit more out there.

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 01:49 AM   #33
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 5,881
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
Sounds like the typical "anti-hero"
The typical anti hero in an action movie can't fight and needs t be saved most of the time? I must have missed hundreds of action movies somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
Wolverine was also motivated primarily by those he directly cares about, generally doesn't like dealing with people, and shies away from the greater good unless he has a direct reason to get involved. But both Logan and Katniss do have hearts and much like Logan refuses to abandon Rogue and takes her under his wing, Katniss does the same with Rue.
None of this supports the idea that Katniss is what people would expect from a female superhero, nor does it change that her extreme physical vulnerability is what made her compelling, something not shared with female superheroes. Yes her attitude isn't much worse than wolverine's... so? It still doesn't support your statement unless the people's expectation is a heroine with wolverine's attitude and rogue's combat.

Quote:
So your suggestion is just to abandon the idea without trying? There is zero evidence that audiences won't show for a quality female led superhero film. There have been plenty of female led films over the years that grossed a ton, despite your claims. The highest grossing movie of all-time adjusted for inflation (Gone with the Wind) had a female lead. Granted female led action films are few and far between and good ones even rarer, which is why The Hunger Games is such a useful template. And, yes, The Hunger Games is very much apart of the same action/scifi genre that most superhero films (especially Marvel ones) are. To claim that a female lead action film is a waste of time with no evidence to back it up is delusional at best and sexist at worst.

I'm not trying to turn lead into gold here. A great female led superhero film is entirely feasible.
Who made this claim? When?

So non action films, and early cinema, that's your evidence for female action films?

And if Hunger Games is the template for a superheroine movie, prepare for an onslaught of anger about how you turned a powerful superheroine into a weakling that needs to be saved by men all the time, and isn't even in the best action in her own film. Unless you don't actually want to use THG as a template, you want to do very different kind of movie and just get the same effect as THG. The word for that is not template. I believe an accurate word is presumption.

My suggestions are based on the problems at hand, so until we can at least get my claims right, there's little chance my suggestions will make any sense.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

Last edited by DrCosmic; 09-22-2013 at 01:59 AM.
DrCosmic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 01:04 PM   #34
Kahran Ramsus
Side-Kick
 
Kahran Ramsus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 4,637
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Katniss in no way was a weakling that needed to be saved all the time. She not only is one of, if not the favorite to win The Hunger Games, a fact brought up numerous times, but it is a major plot point that Peeta has no hope of beating her. She's the best competitor in the Games. Peeta is the one who has to be dragged along.

I don't know why you are so focused on how a female superhero is supposed to act anyways. Being female is not the defining aspect of their characters. A character like Katniss could absolutely work (and does as the success of THG shows), but each hero is different. Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, and She-Hulk are all very different characters, and each would have to be approached differently.

But the claims made for many years is that people (especially men) will not go to see a female lead action film (which THG is). THG showed conclusively that that is false. I'm not in any way saying that it should be copied verbatim, just that it makes pursuing a female superhero film worthwhile.

Kahran Ramsus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 04:10 PM   #35
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,216
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Funny how people never make these same claims about MALE superheroes. Also, if people are going to talk about THG, then they should at least have their facts straight.

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 06:09 PM   #36
CyclopsWasRight
Well, he was.
 
CyclopsWasRight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,668
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
One big advantage that Black Widow has is that she is already well known with two major successful films under her belt already. There isn't much selling that needs to be done to get people in the theaters..
Except being an interesting character.

__________________
Amazing Spider-Man 2 - 68% | X-Men DOFP - 95% | Dawn/Apes - 98% | GOTG - 95%

(90%-100% = Excellent. 80%-90% = Great. 70%-80% = Very Good. 60%-70% = Good. 50%-60% = Okay.
40%-50% = Mediocre. 30%-40% = Poor. 20%-30% = Bad. 0%-20% = Awful)
CyclopsWasRight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 06:45 PM   #37
KangConquers
Purple Kang, Purple Kang
 
KangConquers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,814
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Wonder Woman is a huge missed opportunity for WB, but I'm not really sure Marvel has any equivalent. She-Hulk is an obvious adjunct heroine, Black Widow is a bit too generic to really stand out from movies like Nikita, and Salt, Elektra leans too hard on Daredevil for her back story, and has one of the worst movies of the 00s to her name.

Ms. Marvel is definitely the best choice, though I'm still not sure she's the strongest choice for a phase 3 film. I'd like to see a Ms. Marvel film eventually, but right now I'm definitely more keen about seeing Doctor Strange or Black Panther.

__________________
MCU Rest of Decade prediction:

2015: Avengers: Age of Ultron, Ant-Man
2016: Captain America 3, Doctor Strange
2017: Thor 3, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Inhumans
2018: Avengers 3, Black Panther, Incredible Hulk 2
2019: Iron Man 4, Doctor Strange 2, Ms. Marvel
KangConquers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 06:46 PM   #38
Loki882
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,216
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by droidwarrior View Post
Except being an interesting character.
That's fantastic, because she's a very interesting character.

Loki882 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 05:09 AM   #39
psylockolussus
The X-Men 5 Advocator!
 
psylockolussus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: X-Mansion and the Baxter Building
Posts: 18,535
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

I actually appreciate the movies for Catwoman/Elektra, even though they sucked and the story was really lame, I liked that the lead character was a female.

Hopefully one day, we'll get a solo movie for Storm, She-Hulk, Wonder Woman, Spider-Woman and Ms. Marvel!

__________________
X-MEN RI5E' MUTANT OF THE MONTH | THE CAMEO | PORTRAYED BY STAN LEE
"I'm Stan Lee" - FF2
"Can I have my shoe back?" - T2
"Superheroes in New York? Give me a break!" - A1
"'Nuff said" - SM3
FOLLOW MY ADVOCACY ON www.twitter.com/xmen5movie2018
psylockolussus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 07:36 AM   #40
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 11,679
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
The typical anti hero in an action movie can't fight and needs t be saved most of the time? I must have missed hundreds of action movies somehow.



None of this supports the idea that Katniss is what people would expect from a female superhero, nor does it change that her extreme physical vulnerability is what made her compelling, something not shared with female superheroes. Yes her attitude isn't much worse than wolverine's... so? It still doesn't support your statement unless the people's expectation is a heroine with wolverine's attitude and rogue's combat.



Who made this claim? When?

So non action films, and early cinema, that's your evidence for female action films?

And if Hunger Games is the template for a superheroine movie, prepare for an onslaught of anger about how you turned a powerful superheroine into a weakling that needs to be saved by men all the time, and isn't even in the best action in her own film. Unless you don't actually want to use THG as a template, you want to do very different kind of movie and just get the same effect as THG. The word for that is not template. I believe an accurate word is presumption.

My suggestions are based on the problems at hand, so until we can at least get my claims right, there's little chance my suggestions will make any sense.
Katniss is "a weakling that needs to be saved by men all the time....?" When did that happen? Other than Thresh killing Clove for Katniss and letting Katniss escape out of respect, I didn't see any men saving her. Maybe you thought Rue was a boy or something.....? I'd highly suggest you go back and re-watch the movie, because you're way off base in your presumption.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 12:36 PM   #41
baerrtt
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 640
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

I alluded to this in another thread but sadly I don't think ANY studio will look at the success of THG and think it acts as proof that a female superheroine movie can work gangbusters, box office wise or even close, with the same type of care. With THG all they see is that YA novels are a good source of huge or potentianlly huge money making franchises.

The problem with the female led takes on comic books is that you get the sense that nobody inherently takes the female characters seriously enough to make any serious attempts to give them the type of depth that has typified everything from SUPERMAN THE MOVIE TO BATMAN '89 to X MEN to SPIDER MAN to Nolan's Bat trilogy and that is as much the fault of the production team as it is the studio. If the comic book writers don't invest or garland them with good to great stories how are they an attractive proposition for any screenwriter or director?

Also a poster mentioned GONE WITH THE WIND before....I think the overall issue is that we're in a conservative risk averse climate where I imagine most of the majors greedily view any female led film, no matter how successful, as having a certain limited window of success. Once upon a time when a female led movie was the most successful film of certain years domestically (the aforementioned GWTW, THE SOUND OF MUSIC, CLEOPATRA, FUNNY GIRL etc) it was different but since the 70s that hasn't happened regularly, TITANIC is probably the one exception but the top billed male lead (Dicaprio) getting partial credit over the female lead (Winslet) has always skewered that in my view, and as a result unless the source material sold many novels any other potential source material for female led movies (comic books) is going to get continually overlooked.


Last edited by baerrtt; 09-23-2013 at 12:51 PM.
baerrtt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 01:02 PM   #42
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 5,881
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
Funny how people never make these same claims about MALE superheroes. Also, if people are going to talk about THG, then they should at least have their facts straight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
Katniss in no way was a weakling that needed to be saved all the time. She not only is one of, if not the favorite to win The Hunger Games, a fact brought up numerous times, but it is a major plot point that Peeta has no hope of beating her. She's the best competitor in the Games. Peeta is the one who has to be dragged along.

I don't know why you are so focused on how a female superhero is supposed to act anyways. Being female is not the defining aspect of their characters. A character like Katniss could absolutely work (and does as the success of THG shows), but each hero is different. Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, and She-Hulk are all very different characters, and each would have to be approached differently.

But the claims made for many years is that people (especially men) will not go to see a female lead action film (which THG is). THG showed conclusively that that is false. I'm not in any way saying that it should be copied verbatim, just that it makes pursuing a female superhero film worthwhile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Katniss is "a weakling that needs to be saved by men all the time....?" When did that happen? Other than Thresh killing Clove for Katniss and letting Katniss escape out of respect, I didn't see any men saving her. Maybe you thought Rue was a boy or something.....? I'd highly suggest you go back and re-watch the movie, because you're way off base in your presumption.
Let's get some facts straight, then:
1.) Katniss got into two fights, Tresh (Saved) and Final Boy (freed Peetah, then Peetah beat him). Watch the movie again. In both cases, she was far inferior physically and did not win the fight, unless you want to say Peetah AND Katniss beat the last kid. Maybe you want to say Katniss AND the Big Guy beat Thresh, lol! She was extremely vulnerable, but still strong willed and that's what made her more interesting. This mythical superheroic action figure in THG is all in your head.
2.) Katniss had opportunities to get into other fights. She ran, even from FoxFire, because she's not superheroic at all in any way. That was the point, that's what made her interesting.
3) The Hunger Games is not classified as an action movie anywhere reputable.

So now that we have actual facts straight, lets talk about feelings, I think you might get them confused. Katniss, and other popular heroines feel strong because they have strong personalities, but they are actually physically weak. This is true of Ripley and Sarah Connor as well. Even Alice when she first started out, and Selene didn't even fight her final bad guy in her first film.They cannot face their final villain in single combat like a superhero, they need to be saved, by men (Which is part of the fantasy that people like, by the way), and then become resourceful and lucky in order to win the day. They spend the vast majority of their time running and hiding. That's what makes female heroes interesting, that vulnerability. It is there in every successful female heroine, more pronounced in the most popular ones, like Katniss, and less pronounced in the less popular ones like Charlie's Angels. THG didn't show anything new, they just did cool adaptation of a long standing popular girl-somehow-survives-all-the-killing-of-her-friends-and-defeats-the-monster/whatever-through-resourcefulness-and-friendship which is as old as the horror genre. It's not new, it's not superheroic, it's not action.

You know who did have superheroic qualities and were in actual action movies (not just movies with some action, like any Horror film): Haywire. Ultraviolet. Elektra. Catwoman. You see where I'm going.

You may say, 'well just adapt it different,' but that doesn't make sense. All the popular heroines have this vulnerability in common. All the superheroines do not have this vulnerability in common. If you adapt She-Hulk into someone who gets repeatedly saved from the enemy of the film (laughable in itself, and by who???) you're adapting her wrong, but if you make a sort of superpowered super-hot badarse chick who can handle everything on her own, you're adapting an uninteresting character, because on some level, you're just adapting fanservice, which is not worth $10 and 2 hours of anyone's time. So how do you solve that problem? "Just do it better" isn't an answer, anymore than "Just stop fighting" will get us world peace.

You also may note that Alice and Ripley got power ups as their series' progressed. That's an interesting alternative that would be more than a bit weird for a superhero movie... the hero doesn't get powers until the sequel? And as those two cases indicate, there's a right and wrong way to do that.

There is an exception though. That exception is Kill Bill. She is a character who is physically capable who's vulnerabilities are more superheroic. Amnesia, lost children, well known stuff. This is another example of it taking a Tarantino to do a female superheroine right, but the $30M budget wouldn't allow a studio to woo a super-talented director, would it? But that's the kind of budget that works for an action heroine movie. THAT movie proved something, that with a great director and a great actress, you can have modest success without the extreme vulnerability of other popular heroines that is completely contrary to superheroics. THG is no more relevant to superhero movie discussion than Alien is. It doesn't prove anything further, less in fact. Tomb Raider is another Good+great=modest example, so that's two exceptions.

And remember, this discussion stems from the claim that Katniss is an example of the kind of hero people would want from a superheroine and I'm illustrating how that's simply not true, and responding to responses. If it's not an important point, then agree, and we can move on to the next topic. If you have questions about what I'm saying, please ask instead of trying to pull something extra out of the statements contrary to what is clearly there. Apparently, it takes a lot of detail for what really seems a very obvious point, even though it removes the much loved idea that THG proves something about female superhero films.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KangConquers View Post
Wonder Woman is a huge missed opportunity for WB, but I'm not really sure Marvel has any equivalent. She-Hulk is an obvious adjunct heroine, Black Widow is a bit too generic to really stand out from movies like Nikita, and Salt, Elektra leans too hard on Daredevil for her back story, and has one of the worst movies of the 00s to her name.

Ms. Marvel is definitely the best choice, though I'm still not sure she's the strongest choice for a phase 3 film. I'd like to see a Ms. Marvel film eventually, but right now I'm definitely more keen about seeing Doctor Strange or Black Panther.
I feel similarly, but rally do think Spider-Woman (perhaps under the name Arachne), could make for a really strong low-budget superhero film akin to Underworld or Resident Evil or even Alien, or some of these other successful action girl franchises.

And then Ms. Marvel in phase 4, I think that'd be uber hot if they were like, yeah, we heard you, so we got you TWO! That'd be awesome.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

Last edited by DrCosmic; 09-23-2013 at 02:27 PM.
DrCosmic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 01:37 PM   #43
Destructus86
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,580
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Ms. Marvel will be the first female hero to get her own movie. Totally sure on that. I have faith Marvel can do whichever character they choose justice though.

It's sad that hollywood has such a hard time writing strong female leads.

__________________
Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Destructus86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 02:14 PM   #44
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 5,881
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

^That's probably true. I'd still like to see Spider-Woman though as well, and I think Inhumans would work most awesome with Crystal as the lead character. And there's something Scarlet Witch somewhere to be had.

I don't think Hollywood has a hard time writing strong female leads. There's no doubt that Katniss, Elektra and Rose form Titanic are all strong lead characters, just in different ways. The challenge is that the audience expects/enjoys a lot of vulnerability in its female characters, and it's hard to write much into a character who can kick immense amounts of arse like a superhero.

It's easier for novelists because they are able to show the internal life of the character and how vulnerable they are more easily, but for a filmmaker, showing that is a challenge because it has to be visual and visceral, but for a superhero it can't stop them from being a physical powerhouse. So what's left? The Bride started out a comatose rape victim, after being shot in the head on her wedding day (our introduction to her). Most people aren't willing to take it that far (and that's for the best, I think). So how do you show that this character is not a master of her world in a cool compelling way while she ransacks the enemy like a superhero? That's the challenge... and there's not really much of a formula for that like there is for other hero types... so it takes a great filmmaker to come up with a unique solution for their particular character.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

Last edited by DrCosmic; 09-23-2013 at 02:18 PM.
DrCosmic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 02:21 PM   #45
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 11,679
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Let's get some facts straight, then:
1.) Katniss got into two fights, Tresh (Saved) and Final Boy (freed Peetah, then Peetah beat him). Watch the movie again. In both cases, she was far inferior physically and did not win the fight, unless you want to say Peetah AND Katniss beat the last kid. Maybe you want to say Katniss AND the Big Guy beat Thresh, lol! She was extremely vulnerable, but still strong willed and that's what made her more interesting. This mythical superheroic action figure in THG is all in your head.
2.) Katniss had opportunities to get into other fights. She ran, even from FoxFire, because she's not superheroic at all in any way. That was the point, that's what made her interesting.
3) The Hunger Games is not classified as an action movie anywhere reputable.

So now that we have actual facts straight, lets talk about feelings, I think you might get them confused. Katniss, and other popular heroines feel strong because they have strong personalities, but they are actually physically weak. This is true of Ripley and Sarah Connor as well. Even Alice when she first started out, and Selene didn't even fight her final bad guy in her first film.They cannot face their final villain in single combat like a superhero, they need to be saved, by men (Which is part of the fantasy that people like, by the way), and then become resourceful and lucky in order to win the day. That's what makes female heroes interesting, that vulnerability. It is there in every successful female heroine, more pronounced in the most popular ones, like Katniss, and less pronounced in the less popular ones like Charlie's Angels. THG didn't show anything new, they just did cool adaptation of a long standing popular girl-somehow-survives-all-the-killing-of-her-friends-and-defeats-the-monster/whatever-through-resourcefulness-and-friendship which is as old as the horror genre. It's not new, it's not superheroic, it's not action.

You know who did have superheroic qualities and were in actual action movies (not just movies with some action, like any Horror film): Haywire. Ultraviolet. Elektra. Catwoman. You see where I'm going.

You may say, 'well just adapt it different,' but that doesn't make sense. All the popular heroines have this vulnerability in common. All the superheroines do not have this vulnerability in common. If you adapt She-Hulk into someone who gets repeatedly saved from the enemy of the film (laughable in itself, and by who???) you're adapting her wrong, but if you make a sort of superpowered super-hot badarse chick who can handle everything on her own, you're adapting an uninteresting character, because on some level, you're just adapting fanservice, which is not worth $10 and 2 hours of anyone's time. So how do you solve that problem? "Just do it better" isn't an answer, anymore than "Just stop fighting" will get us world peace.

You also may note that Alice and Ripley got power ups as their series' progressed. That's an interesting alternative that would be more than a bit weird for a superhero movie... the hero doesn't get powers until the sequel? And as those two cases indicate, there's a right and wrong way to do that.

There is an exception though. That exception is Kill Bill. She is a character who is physically capable who's vulnerabilities are more superheroic. Amnesia, lost children, well known stuff. This is another example of it taking a Tarantino to do a female superheroine right, but the $30M budget wouldn't allow a studio to woo a super-talented director, would it? But that's the kind of budget that works for an action heroine movie. THAT movie proved something, that with a great director and a great actress, you can have modest success without the extreme vulnerability of other popular heroines that is completely contrary to superheroics. THG is no more relevant to superhero movie discussion than Alien is. It doesn't prove anything further, less in fact. Tomb Raider is another Good+great=modest example, so that's two exceptions.

And remember, this discussion stems from the claim that Katniss is an example of the kind of hero people would want from a superheroine and I'm illustrating how that's simply not true, and responding to responses. If it's not an important point, then agree, and we can move on to the next topic. If you have questions about what I'm saying, please ask instead of trying to pull something extra out of the statements contrary to what is clearly there. Apparently, it takes a lot of detail for what really seems a very obvious point, even though it removes the much loved idea that THG proves something about female superhero films.



I feel similarly, but rally do think Spider-Woman (perhaps under the name Arachne), could make for a really strong low-budget superhero film akin to Underworld or Resident Evil or even Alien, or some of these other successful action girl franchises.

And then Ms. Marvel in phase 4, I think that'd be uber hot if they were like, yeah, we heard you, so we got you TWO! That'd be awesome.
Good god, you're all over the place here. I'm not even exactly sure what you're trying to argue amidst all that, but I'll address a couple of items that you seem to dwell on:

1) Nobody said Katniss was a "superhero," as far as I can tell from the thread. *I* certainly didn't. But she *is* a heroine, a strong one, and has all the hallmarks of a classic hero, male *or* female. Does she need "saving" from time to time? Sure. So do the guys, even the best of 'em --- Arnold, Stallone, Clint, Statham, Bond, you name it. Hell, check out the IM3 ***** threads, there's whole subfora whining about the fact that Pepper always pulls Tony Stark's ass out of the fire and kills his villains for him. It's just Action Movie 101 --- at some point, the hero's life has to be in danger, and an unexpected ally (even Fate/Chance/Pure Dumb Luck) has to intervene to save him. That doesn't make Katniss --- or any other heroine --- *any* different or any less a hero than any male you care to name.

2)
Quote:
All the popular heroines have this vulnerability in common. All the superheroines do not have this vulnerability in common. If you adapt She-Hulk into someone who gets repeatedly saved from the enemy of the film (laughable in itself, and by who???) you're adapting her wrong, but if you make a sort of superpowered super-hot badarse chick who can handle everything on her own, you're adapting an uninteresting character, because on some level, you're just adapting fanservice, which is not worth $10 and 2 hours of anyone's time.
Again: why should this "rule" apply only to women and not men? You think that heroes --- even of the Man of Steel variety --- don't have vulnerabilities, too? Both physical, and emotional/mental? You think an invincible male hero who always gets his man and never loses a battle and whose life is never in any real danger would ever work? Of course not. Nobody wants to see an uber, period....male *or* female. But there's absolutely no reason that a heroine should be subject to girly-girl weakness just because she has a different set of genitalia than ol' Clark Kent over there.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 03:01 PM   #46
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 5,881
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Good god, you're all over the place here. I'm not even exactly sure what you're trying to argue amidst all that, but I'll address a couple of items that you seem to dwell on:

1) Nobody said Katniss was a "superhero," as far as I can tell from the thread. *I* certainly didn't. But she *is* a heroine, a strong one, and has all the hallmarks of a classic hero, male *or* female. Does she need "saving" from time to time? Sure. So do the guys, even the best of 'em --- Arnold, Stallone, Clint, Statham, Bond, you name it. Hell, check out the IM3 ***** threads, there's whole subfora whining about the fact that Pepper always pulls Tony Stark's ass out of the fire and kills his villains for him. It's just Action Movie 101 --- at some point, the hero's life has to be in danger, and an unexpected ally (even Fate/Chance/Pure Dumb Luck) has to intervene to save him. That doesn't make Katniss --- or any other heroine --- *any* different or any less a hero than any male you care to name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
Katniss Everdeen is the same kind of heroic action figure that you would expect to see in a female led film based off of a comic book.
Again, I said what I was trying to argue, and you quoted it, if you are unsure, it is because you did not read. If you need something less comprehensive, here you go:

Katniss was not saved "from time to time," she was saved repeatedly and exclusively. All action heroes initiate and win fights on their own. Katniss never does and never can. Period. She is not an action hero. She grows to become a symbol for the people, not a warrior. It doesn't make her less of a hero, as I said it makes her not at all like a superhero.

Quote:
Again: why should this "rule" apply only to women and not men? You think that heroes --- even of the Man of Steel variety --- don't have vulnerabilities, too? Both physical, and emotional/mental? You think an invincible male hero who always gets his man and never loses a battle and whose life is never in any real danger would ever work? Of course not. Nobody wants to see an uber, period....male *or* female. But there's absolutely no reason that a heroine should be subject to girly-girl weakness just because she has a different set of genitalia than ol' Clark Kent over there.
There's no rule, just history and observation. Every popular hero has vulnerabilities, that goes without saying. That says nothing about how much vulnerability the audience expects/enjoys in different contexts. Popular female heroes have extreme vulnerabilities. Case in point: A female hero who spends most of her time running and hiding because she can't win a fight is perceived as a strong action heroine and model superhero. There are no similar male heroes because no one wants to see that. Perhaps you think that's not how it should be, but that's kinda just your personal thing, then, isn't it?

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

Last edited by DrCosmic; 09-23-2013 at 03:11 PM.
DrCosmic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 03:21 PM   #47
Shazam
Side-Kick
 
Shazam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,785
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

So how long before we see a Wonder Woman film?? If ever!

Shazam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 03:22 PM   #48
Kahran Ramsus
Side-Kick
 
Kahran Ramsus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 4,637
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Cosmic
Again, I said what I was trying to argue, and you quoted it, if you are unsure, it is because you did not read. If you need something less comprehensive, here you go:

Katniss was not saved "from time to time," she was saved repeatedly and exclusively. All action heroes initiate and win fights on their own. Katniss never does and never can. Period. She is not an action hero. She grows to become a symbol for the people, not a warrior. It doesn't make her less of a hero, as I said it makes her not at all like a superhero.
And you are clearly wrong about that. She was not saved repeatedly and exclusively. She killed at least three people in the film. She tries to avoid fights when possible, but many superheros do. She fights and wins when necessary.

The only thing holding Katniss back from being a superhero is she lacks powers and doesn't have a costume. Character-wise, it fits. James Bond and John McClane aren't superheros either, but there isn't a lot separating them from the likes of Batman and Wolverine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Cosmic
3) The Hunger Games is not classified as an action movie anywhere reputable.
Others have talked about the other points, so I see no need in going over them again, but this is just flat out wrong. IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Amazon, Best Buy, Wikipedia, Metacritic, The Broadcast Film Critics Association, and more all classify it as action/adventure.


Last edited by Kahran Ramsus; 09-23-2013 at 03:30 PM.
Kahran Ramsus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 03:25 PM   #49
CyclopsWasRight
Well, he was.
 
CyclopsWasRight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,668
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
So how long before we see a Wonder Woman film?? If ever!
You'll probably get a Black Widow movie before Wonder Woman

__________________
Amazing Spider-Man 2 - 68% | X-Men DOFP - 95% | Dawn/Apes - 98% | GOTG - 95%

(90%-100% = Excellent. 80%-90% = Great. 70%-80% = Very Good. 60%-70% = Good. 50%-60% = Okay.
40%-50% = Mediocre. 30%-40% = Poor. 20%-30% = Bad. 0%-20% = Awful)
CyclopsWasRight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2013, 04:01 PM   #50
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 11,679
Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
And you are clearly wrong about that. She was not saved repeatedly and exclusively. She killed at least three people in the film. She tries to avoid fights when possible, but many superheros do. She fights and wins when necessary.

The only thing holding Katniss back from being a superhero is she lacks powers and doesn't have a costume. Character-wise, it fits. James Bond and John McClane aren't superheros either, but there isn't a lot separating them from the likes of Batman and Wolverine.
And that speaks to what Dr. Cosmic was trying to imply about good heroes (read: "male") being take-charge kind of guys: "All action heroes initiate and win fights on their own." Except for the fact that Bond, like a huge number of male heroes, is only following orders, *not* "initiating fights"; and McClane, like a huge number of male heroes, is merely reacting to unwanted and dangerous situations he is continuously forced into, *not* "initiating fights."

And in some ways, Katniss *does* have more initiative than James Bond or John McClane or any other number of male heroes or superheroes, in that she *does* take charge of the situations she is placed in. *She* steps up to take her sister's place in tribute; *she* works hard to become the most formidable competitor in training; *she* takes charge of her own image during the pre-Game interviews; *she* rallies the people to her cause; *she* takes charge on the battlefield.

Really, I'm thinking that Dr. Cosmic saw a different movie. None of his complaints about THG are adding up.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.