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Old 09-23-2013, 08:05 PM   #26
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

IMO it made it into a perfect trilogy/story. It's my favorite of the 3. When I watch films of course I have to be entertained, but I mainly watch it for directing, writing, acting, editing, cinematography, score. My favorite kind of films are the ones with more emotional weighty themes, where I can take something seriously. The whole trilogy has that balanced out with fun but Rises pushed the boundaries of Imax, it had the most emotion, the best acting from Bale, the full-fledged out score. It didn't repeat TDK's structure or genre. It moved into a war epic or disaster film, meaning it moved into new territory. While expanding on the themes of the previous movie and bringing everything full circle back to Begins with fantastic references. That's how you end a story.

The perfect trilogy even with its flaws.

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Old 09-23-2013, 09:03 PM   #27
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Yeah, it's funny...while some claim it prevented the trilogy from being perfect, I agree with shauner, it actually perfected it. It took elements from two very different, contrasting films (BB and TDK) and synthesized it all while pushing forward into this grand, epic climax that tied up a lot of themes and hammered home the ultimate message of the whole thing. Without TDKR, you just have two movies...thesis/antithesis. TDKR is what threads them together and makes it into a cohesive trilogy.

Utterly perfect in all its imperfection, the trilogy that is. I always say: BB- 8.5/10, TDK-9.5/10, TDKR- 9/10. TDK Trilogy- 10/10. Greater than the sum of its parts. A truly epic tale that'll be worth experiencing again and again for years and years to come.

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Old 09-23-2013, 09:37 PM   #28
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It actually took some core elements from the precious movies and practically ignored them or made them have no consequences at all, like Alfred burning Rachel's letter or all the Harvey Dent's cover up. They were mentioned, but made no difference in the story. Also, Batman as a symbol without limits: he died and everyone knew.

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Old 09-23-2013, 10:05 PM   #29
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It actually took some core elements from the precious movies

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Old 09-23-2013, 10:32 PM   #30
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LOL, previous, you rotten devil.

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Old 09-24-2013, 12:15 AM   #31
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Yeah, it's funny...while some claim it prevented the trilogy from being perfect, I agree with shauner, it actually perfected it. It took elements from two very different, contrasting films (BB and TDK) and synthesized it all while pushing forward into this grand, epic climax that tied up a lot of themes and hammered home the ultimate message of the whole thing. Without TDKR, you just have two movies...thesis/antithesis. TDKR is what threads them together and makes it into a cohesive trilogy.
Though I do agree with this, Rises did do deconstruction in a similar way that Knight did. Begins was the setup to both Bruce and Batman and the sequel deconstructed Batman in various ways, finally inverting the symbol by vilifying him. Rises deconstructs Bruce Wayne by paring down the trappings of his life like him losing his fortune (his only superpower), pushing Alfred away, and eventually even his ability to be Batman. It also shows what damage crime fighting has done to his body in his age. Knight truly put Batman through the crucible and Rises took Bruce all the way to edge in which he had nothing left save pure will.

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Old 09-24-2013, 01:45 AM   #32
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Wouldn't it have made more sense and been better if it was John Blake that beat/killed Bane instead of Catwoman?

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Old 09-24-2013, 03:40 AM   #33
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Though I do agree with this, Rises did do deconstruction in a similar way that Knight did. Begins was the setup to both Bruce and Batman and the sequel deconstructed Batman in various ways, finally inverting the symbol by vilifying him. Rises deconstructs Bruce Wayne by paring down the trappings of his life like him losing his fortune (his only superpower), pushing Alfred away, and eventually even his ability to be Batman. It also shows what damage crime fighting has done to his body in his age. Knight truly put Batman through the crucible and Rises took Bruce all the way to edge in which he had nothing left save pure will.
Nice. Good observations regarding the deconstructions going on in both movies.

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Old 09-24-2013, 09:59 AM   #34
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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It actually took some core elements from the precious movies and practically ignored them or made them have no consequences at all, like Alfred burning Rachel's letter or all the Harvey Dent's cover up. They were mentioned, but made no difference in the story. Also, Batman as a symbol without limits: he died and everyone knew.
Exactly

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Old 09-24-2013, 10:54 AM   #35
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I don't get how Alfred burning the letter didn't have consequences? It had huge consequences. Alfred and Bruce had their last conversation ever because of that letter.

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Old 09-24-2013, 11:31 AM   #36
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Dark Knight Rises definitely wasn't the epic conclusion to the trilogy that I was hoping it would be. Honestly, its kinda boring with plot holes, useless characters (see Foley and Holly) and limited Batman action, Bane as a so so villain, and unintentional funny moments ( ex Talia's death). And the whole Blake being robin ending was a huge eye roll for me. Not to mention no reference to Joker whatsoever, when he had a HUGE role in to why Batman disappeared for eight years. Without Joker there would have been no Two Face, and no Two Face meant no Batman taking the fall. I don't see how a simple line like, the clown is locked up in a prison in another city or something like that would have been disrespectful to Heath. To me not acknowledging him at all was really disrespectful. Anyway, not saying the movie is horrible, its okay/good but for me its definitely the weakest of the three Nolan bat films.


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Old 09-24-2013, 11:33 AM   #37
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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I don't get how Alfred burning the letter didn't have consequences? It had huge consequences. Alfred and Bruce had their last conversation ever because of that letter.
Not really. Alfred was leaving because Bruce became Batman again. He revealed the truth about Rachel's letter in a desperate attempt to make Bruce see sense. Alfred was going to leave either way.

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Old 09-24-2013, 11:40 AM   #38
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Wouldn't it have made more sense and been better if it was John Blake that beat/killed Bane instead of Catwoman?
No. Blake, like Batman, does not get a kick out of killing or stealing or whatever. It fit Selina's character. She doesn't enjoy killing but she'll do it to survive and won't blink an eye in doing so. Blake's not that character.

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Old 09-24-2013, 02:10 PM   #39
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Not really. Alfred was leaving because Bruce became Batman again. He revealed the truth about Rachel's letter in a desperate attempt to make Bruce see sense. Alfred was going to leave either way.
Either way, it's used as a last attempt to snap Bruce out of his funk and even if Alfred hadn't decided to leave at that point, Bruce's feelings are pretty clear and he probably would've wanted him out after that anyway. You could also argue that on a subtextual level, knowing that the feelings weren't mutual with Rachel ultimately served to help Bruce move on from her.

Just not buying that argument that this was only a superficial callback. It was a huge beat in the film, bigger than I thought it'd be even.

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Old 09-24-2013, 05:12 PM   #40
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Either way, it's used as a last attempt to snap Bruce out of his funk and even if Alfred hadn't decided to leave at that point, Bruce's feelings are pretty clear and he probably would've wanted him out after that anyway.
I doubt that since the next morning he calls out for Alfred expecting him to still be there.

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You could also argue that on a subtextual level, knowing that the feelings weren't mutual with Rachel ultimately served to help Bruce move on from her.
That is more plausible.

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Just not buying that argument that this was only a superficial callback. It was a huge beat in the film, bigger than I thought it'd be even.
In the context of the Bruce and Alfred fall out it was. Alfred was leaving Bruce anyway.

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Old 09-24-2013, 05:49 PM   #41
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I doubt that since the next morning he calls out for Alfred expecting him to still be there.
Fair enough, though I always just took that scene as a little comedic bit where Bruce just instinctively expects someone to answer the door for him because he's so used to it.

The thing that makes me think Bruce was pretty much done with Alfred is this exchange here:

"You expect to destroy my world and then think that we're gonna shake hands?"

"No. I know what this means."

"What does it mean?"

"It means your hatred. And it also means losing someone that I have cared for since I first heard his cries echo through this house."

The way I always interpreted the scene was Alfred makes his decision to leave because he's anticipating how Bruce will react before he even tells him about the Rachel thing. I guess it's somewhat of a chicken/egg scenario.

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Old 09-24-2013, 09:05 PM   #42
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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No. Blake, like Batman, does not get a kick out of killing or stealing or whatever. It fit Selina's character. She doesn't enjoy killing but she'll do it to survive and won't blink an eye in doing so. Blake's not that character.
Not killing, or at least not intentionally. Should have had Blake be the man to defeat Bane and save Batman, since Blake takes over the mantel, yet the movie gives us really no reason to believe that Blake can live up to taking Batman's place successfully. Blake being the man to defeat Bane would have made much more sense, I think.

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Old 09-24-2013, 09:09 PM   #43
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

You cant defeat Bane unless he's dead. What prison will hold that man? Sure he could rot in some high security prison until he stops breathing with all his facial problems. But like ive said before, having Joker AND Bane locked up in the world at the same time is a recipe for disaster. It leaves too much on the mind in terms of returns or sequels.

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Old 09-24-2013, 09:15 PM   #44
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You cant defeat Bane unless he's dead. What prison will hold that man? Sure he could rot in some high security prison until he stops breathing with all his facial problems. But like ive said before, having Joker AND Bane locked up in the world at the same time is a recipe for disaster. It leaves too much on the mind in terms of returns or sequels.
Then have him be killed unintentionally. It just makes more sense that the person who saves Batman is the same man who will carry his mantel afterwards. The movie really gives us no reason to believe he can live up to being the next Batman, this would have done it.

I also believe The Joker character is dead in these movies. Just me.

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Old 09-24-2013, 09:21 PM   #45
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

It's possible that Joker got the electric chair. But I go by the official novelization which says he's in Arkham. Whether he escapes at the time of Rises or not is up to the imagination. I love that.

Bane dying unintentionally? Doesn't sound like the death Bane deserved. He needed to die with INTENTION. Blake couldn't be that guy. How would an unintentional death happen anyway with Bane?

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Old 09-24-2013, 09:33 PM   #46
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It's possible that Joker got the electric chair. But I go by the official novelization which says he's in Arkham. Whether he escapes at the time of Rises or not is up to the imagination. I love that.

Bane dying unintentionally? Doesn't sound like the death Bane deserved. He needed to die with INTENTION. Blake couldn't be that guy. How would an unintentional death happen anyway with Bane?
Maybe, but I have a hard time believe The Joker can stay just locked away in Arkham or somewhere quietly. Somehow, someway, he would have found a way out within eight years. Joker brilliantly escaped jail once, would they really take their chances with doing the same or similar thing with him again? They likely put him down.

Found Bane's death kind of weak in the movie anyway, there are a million scenarios they could have done with Bane to have him taken out. I guess you could still have Catwoman kill him, but have Blake save Batman. My main point is that they should have done something to make Blake look stronger and more believable as the man to take Batman's place. Taking out Bane or saving Batman would have done that.

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Old 09-25-2013, 01:02 PM   #47
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Thinking of doing an edit of TDKR. It's a lot to sift through, but I wrote out a quick pitch of a streamlined story:

Start proper at Wayne Manor. The Mayor and Commissioner Gordon are giving speeches about the success of the Dent act in their war against crime. Bruce Wayne watches from a roof top, as Catwoman steals something below (they don't meet).
Wayne tracks miss Kyle to enquire as to what she wants with his fingerprints. Bane is seen for the first time, staging an assault on the stock exchange, and Batman intervenes. Escaping the police, Batman returns to the cave, where Alfred is struggling with Bruce and his suicidal quest as Batman.
[I would shift a lot of scenes around, pushing Bane's mass bombing as far forward as possible. Establish his presence faster, but make his uprising far more gradual. With smart scene ordering, I think it might be possible to give the impression of a greater fall of the order of Gotham]
As officers begin to home in on Bane, a young detective named John Blake discovers a plot to trap a great number of the police in the sewer systems. His warning comes too late, and Bane launches his attack, destroying Gotham stadium, killing the mayor, and decimating the police force. He unveils a nuclear weapon and and pleads with Gotham to free itself of the greed and corruption.
As the bombs trigger, Gordon is captured in a skirmish with Bane's thugs. He manages to escape but is badly wounded. Recovering in hospital Gordon promotes Blake, who then visits Wayne manor revealing that he knows Bruce's secret identity (frail-beardman-Bruce cut). They discuss why Bruce decided to be Batman.
As Bruce plans to confront Bane, Alfred desperately tries to stop him, eventually leaving him in an attempt to save Bruce from himself. The money-having in Gotham begin to lose their power and influence, as Bruce is swindled out of his money by Bane, and corrupt business-man John Daggart is found murdered (by Bane of course).
Batman asks Catwoman's assistance in finding Bane but is betrayed by her and broken. Bane has uncovered the Wayne armoury and plans to use the equipment for his own devices. Bruce again wakes up at Bane's mercy and is told to watch Gotham burn. As he recuperates, we continue to watch Gotham fall.
Catwoman attempts to flee Gotham after witnessing the fall of Batman, but is arrested by Blake and what is left of the police force. Not long after she is incarcerated into Black gate prison, however Bane resurfaces and destroys the legacy of Harvey Dent and Gordon, forcing Black Gate prisoners to be freed. Blake rushes to the hospital to intercept as Bane's thugs target Gordon. His faith in the police is shaken when he argues with Gordon about the lies of the Dent act, and visiting the orphanage where he grew up, speaks to a boy about the potential return of Batman.
Order continues to fall into chaos as the rich begin to be thrown out of their houses, and a bogus court is set up and overseen by Scarecrow. The outside world fails to restore stability in the city, blocked at the city limits.[This will pretty much play out as it does in the film currently. Bat's builds his strength while Gotham continues to fall. Minor cuts for continuity-Tate, exposition about the bomb (it's just a bomb] In the pit, Bruce learns that Bane is the son of Ras Al Ghul.
Gordon is among many officers captured and sentenced to death by Scarecrow, however he is saved by a returning Batman. Bruce appears amongst Bane's prisoners and speaks to Lucius about removing Bane's nuclear threat. He discovers that it will detonate by itself in mere hours. They plan to block the signal to the detonator while an attempt is made to destroy the trigger. Once Bane is stopped, they can work to disable the bomb.
A “captured” Bruce is freed by Catwoman, who is revealed to be in league with him again. Batman aids Blake in a rescue attempt of some of the trapped officers, and the heroes launch their attack on Bane's forces. Catwoman considers fleeing Gotham to save herself, and Blake embarks on a mission to evacuate as many as possible. Batman defeats Bane, gives him a one-liner and heads straight after the bomb.
The unnamed bomb driver and entourage is stopped by Batman and Catwoman. The bomb is in tact however there is no time to disarm it. Batman decides to fly it to a safe distance, sacrificing himself and saving the city. Sad farewells, he flies, goes boom.
[The film would pretty much close as normal from then on]
Not sure if what I've just cobbled would hang together perfectly, but there seems to be enough of a through line that it would work alright. I think this has some potential. There's a lot of scenes in the film that could sit quite nicely in the middle and pad out Bane's occupation, which in turn could really make the idea feel more fleshed out and gradual.
I'd like to cut the bomb completely, but I can't think of a way to end the film without it. As it stands, I'll be happy to remove all of the plot behind it. It's a bomb, that's all.

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Old 09-25-2013, 01:27 PM   #48
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Maybe, but I have a hard time believe The Joker can stay just locked away in Arkham or somewhere quietly. Somehow, someway, he would have found a way out within eight years. Joker brilliantly escaped jail once, would they really take their chances with doing the same or similar thing with him again? They likely put him down.

Found Bane's death kind of weak in the movie anyway, there are a million scenarios they could have done with Bane to have him taken out. I guess you could still have Catwoman kill him, but have Blake save Batman. My main point is that they should have done something to make Blake look stronger and more believable as the man to take Batman's place. Taking out Bane or saving Batman would have done that.
Good point. Maybe they put him down. But I actually like to believe that he's in a Frank Miller Joker spot, in some catatonic state once the Dent Act is official and Batman has completely disappeared. Then when Bats returns he comes out of it. Whether they keep him in Arkham or he breaks out, once Blake starts training to become Batman? Who knows. But that's how I see it.

The point is that anybody can be Batman to carry the symbol forward if they really want to step up to the plate. Not many can actually do it, but Blake has the willpower. When you have the willpower plus Bruce leaving him the technology..Blake can now do anything. He'll find time to train and do things his own way. "Training means nothing, will is everything". That's what it's all about.

Blake should not have taken Bane out. Same with Bruce. Having Catwoman do it was perfect IMO. It made perfect sense. She doesn't have those rules. She needs to save Batman from Bane at that point because she was the thing that almost killed him originally when Bane took him out. Like said before, it also humiliates Bane and his large ego. Which is what he deserved. He gets a second lasting death, he doesn't get some powerful triumphant death.

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Old 10-19-2013, 06:22 PM   #49
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

It was my least favorite. I'm still astounded at how much I didn't like it. Bane is one of my favorite characters, so I was really looking forward to it and was sad at how much of a letdown it was. The plot was over-the-top and really fell apart toward the end. The actors were still excellent, but wow....the plot kind of sucked. It was trying to do too much at once. I was really interested in the class warfare storyline and how Bane was going to lead that revolution, but it was dropped pretty quickly. Ideas were brought up, but never fleshed out. That's what annoyed me the most. It could've been so good.

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Old 10-19-2013, 07:52 PM   #50
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

There was lot happening in the film;that's what I enjoyed about it. The class warfare was another tool for Bane to use against Bruce.

I see Alfred's burning of Rachel's letter as him trying to force Bruce to past his relationship with Rachel. After TDK, Bruce did try to create a life for himself by throwing his time and energy into the fusion reactor project. So it makes sense that Alfred wouldn't bring up the subject of the letter. In the time after that (3 years, I think?) I imagine Alfred consoled himself with the fact that Bruce wasn't risking his neck as the Batman. Only when Bruce went out with a death wish did Alfred confess to Bruce about the letter.

Bane's death was well done, as it emphasized the moral difference between Batman and Catwoman. Batman had already beaten him mentally and physically. Getting blown away was a perfect way to keep Bane from winning (ie dying a martyr).

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