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Old 09-03-2013, 11:49 AM   #26
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And then there are shared characters. Fox could get away with using Viper and Marvel can get away with using Quicksilver. I have a feeling that Kang is one of these.
If character Kang first appeared in any non X-men,FF, or Spider-man they are exclusive to Marvel.. Kang is out of the question. The MCU doesn't even have to entertain the "Rama Tut" history

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Old 09-07-2013, 08:14 PM   #27
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too soon for Doom - plenty of others that can carry the film...
I may sound like a broken record at this point, but how many FF villains besides Doom and Galactus can carry an entire movie by themselves?

Really when you get past Dr. Doom and Galactus, the FF rogues gallery looks a bit weak.

It seems like Red Ghost wouldn't make for a very good main villain of an FF film for example, considering he is an outdated relic with very little personality. You wouldn't have Stilt-Man carry an Daredevil movie and you wouldn't have Shocker be the main villain in a Spider-Man movie.

I like Annihilus, though he was better written in Annihilation then any FF story, at least he is menacing and truly evil.

Mole Man might be an okay starter villain, but he is kinda bland, his monsters are interesting then he is and I don't care what any Silver age fan says, I still think Ultimate Mole Man is better then 616 Mole Man and I normally prefer 616 versions to their Ultimate counter parts, but Ultimate Mole Man has more defined motive for revenge against a particular party, while 616 Mole Man has a vague grudge against the entire world, because a few bimbos wouldn't go out with him. I think a lot of FF villains would need a lot re working to carry a film, because they are not particularly interesting in the comics either.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:02 PM   #28
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I'd like to see

Fantastic Four: Reborn

They open the Nagative zone and have to stop Annihilus or Blaastar. or face of against the Frightful Four.

Fantastic Four: Scourge of the Skrulls

Face off agains the Skrulls

Fantastic Four: DOOM

Face off against Dr Doom.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:15 PM   #29
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I may sound like a broken record at this point, but how many FF villains besides Doom and Galactus can carry an entire movie by themselves?

Really when you get past Dr. Doom and Galactus, the FF rogues gallery looks a bit weak.

It seems like Red Ghost wouldn't make for a very good main villain of an FF film for example, considering he is an outdated relic with very little personality. You wouldn't have Stilt-Man carry an Daredevil movie and you wouldn't have Shocker be the main villain in a Spider-Man movie.

I like Annihilus, though he was better written in Annihilation then any FF story, at least he is menacing and truly evil.

Mole Man might be an okay starter villain, but he is kinda bland, his monsters are interesting then he is and I don't care what any Silver age fan says, I still think Ultimate Mole Man is better then 616 Mole Man and I normally prefer 616 versions to their Ultimate counter parts, but Ultimate Mole Man has more defined motive for revenge against a particular party, while 616 Mole Man has a vague grudge against the entire world, because a few bimbos wouldn't go out with him. I think a lot of FF villains would need a lot re working to carry a film, because they are not particularly interesting in the comics either.
Perhaps I am the flip side of that same record -
No one is arguing that these characters would not require some fleshing out - but what Marvel movie villain has not been reworked to some degree? I have no idea how close Iron Monger was to his comic book counterpart, but I bet they altered him some what. Same with Justin Hammer and certainly the Mandarin. As long as we get something interesting and NOT Doom in every damn movie, I am good with it.

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:33 AM   #30
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The key to Moleman is his monsters and subterranean empire. Moleman himself doesn't seem that threatening or interesting, but a story that focuses on the FF battling threats from his monsters and trying to unravel the mystery of it all and finding the weak and somewhat pathetic Moleman toward the end could be very interesting, different and emphasize the 'exploration' aspect of the FF if done right.

The exploration of the subterranean world and facing the threats of it should be the bulk of the film.

A well-done Moleman along with Annihilus, Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer and Galactus should be enough for 6 films if done right, and then they can figure out where to go from there

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Old 09-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #31
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Perhaps I am the flip side of that same record -
No one is arguing that these characters would not require some fleshing out - but what Marvel movie villain has not been reworked to some degree? I have no idea how close Iron Monger was to his comic book counterpart, but I bet they altered him some what. Same with Justin Hammer and certainly the Mandarin. As long as we get something interesting and NOT Doom in every damn movie, I am good with it.

Star With Annihilus, then Doom, then Galactus, then Super Skrull.

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Old 09-08-2013, 08:30 PM   #32
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The key to Moleman is his monsters and subterranean empire. Moleman himself doesn't seem that threatening or interesting, but a story that focuses on the FF battling threats from his monsters and trying to unravel the mystery of it all and finding the weak and somewhat pathetic Moleman toward the end could be very interesting, different and emphasize the 'exploration' aspect of the FF if done right.

The exploration of the subterranean world and facing the threats of it should be the bulk of the film.

A well-done Moleman along with Annihilus, Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer and Galactus should be enough for 6 films if done right, and then they can figure out where to go from there
Well I would rather Mole Man have an interesting personality and a solid motive, rather then him just being a man behind a curtain, who has no good reason for anything and just becomes a joke at the end. That seems like a lot of build up to just a disappointment. A movie often hinges on its climax, so having a lame climax doesn't help a film.

I actually think Ultimate Mole Man is one of the few characters who was better then their 616 counter part, mainly because he was far uglier, more of an accomplished scientist, had creepy fixation on Sue and had a better reason for revenge. Ultimate Mole Man wanted revenge on the government because the fired him and took his research, 616 Mole Man wants revenge on the entire planet, because a few bimbos didn't go out with him, some jerk fired him for being ugly and he didn't threaten to sue and is mad at the scientific community for laughing at his crack pot idea that he had no proof of. One of these revenge motives is stronger then the other, because it is more focused on a particular reason against a particular party, rather then a vague grudge against the world because a few people were mean to him. Really Mole Man having a grudge against the world because of the actions of a few people, only works if Mole Man is a petty, psychopathic monster, otherwise give him a more focused target for revenge.

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Perhaps I am the flip side of that same record -
No one is arguing that these characters would not require some fleshing out - but what Marvel movie villain has not been reworked to some degree? I have no idea how close Iron Monger was to his comic book counterpart, but I bet they altered him some what. Same with Justin Hammer and certainly the Mandarin. As long as we get something interesting and NOT Doom in every damn movie, I am good with it.
Well it seems like a lot of people here didn't like what they Mandarin, opinion about him is pretty divided, I have mixed feelings on what they Mandarin, I do realize the comic book and especially the Silver Age Mandarin would be no sale for today's market, no FF villain has that level of controversy attacked to them. but on the other hand, I thought Killian was just an okay villain, nothing special. But that brings up the question, how far is it okay to change a villain in one of these movies, to make them more interesting and dynamic then what they usually are in the comics.

The thing is Dr. Doom is by far their strongest villain the FF has and we have never gotten a good version of him on the Silver screen. You don't have to have him for every film, but if you are not going with your strongest villain out the gate, you need some sort of compelling villain to hold people's attention, something better then a cold war relic or some guy who is upset because some bimbo wouldn't go out with him. That's why I like Ultimate Mole Man compared to 616 Mole Man, Ultimate Mole Man has a better motive then 616 Mole Man.

FF are not like Spider-Man and Batman, who have several interesting villains to fall back on, the FF's rogues gets kinda of weak once Doom and Galactus are out of the way, so you have to be careful picking a villain who can carry a movie, a weak villain can bring down a whole movie.


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Old 09-08-2013, 10:26 PM   #33
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I actually think Ultimate Mole Man is one of the few characters who was better then their 616 counter part, mainly because he was far uglier, more of an accomplished scientist, had creepy fixation on Sue and had a better reason for revenge. Ultimate Mole Man wanted revenge on the government because the fired him and took his research, 616 Mole Man wants revenge on the entire planet, because a few bimbos didn't go out with him, some jerk fired him for being ugly and he didn't threaten to sue and is mad at the scientific community for laughing at his crack pot idea that he had no proof of. One of these revenge motives is stronger then the other, because it is more focused on a particular reason, rather then a vague grudge against the world because a few people were mean to him. Really Mole Man having a grudge against the world because of the actions of a few people, only works if Mole Man is a petty, psychopathic monster, otherwise give him a more focused target for revenge.
yes, perfectly said. I love his obsession with Sue.

I picture, in my head, Trank being more attracted to a villain like Doom or Mole Man rather than more vague, cosmic ones like Annihilus or Galactus. I'm just basing this on Chronicle, so I know this hunch is pretty baseless. but that's just the feeling I get.

I also have a picture of Puppet Master working really well with Trank. But for similar reasons to what you're saying elsewhere in your post, Puppet Master would definitely not be a villain to open a reboot with. I can see him working really well for a later film, once the team has been established. and also kind of sharing space with some internal conflict in the team itself.

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Old 09-09-2013, 07:23 AM   #34
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Well I would rather Mole Man have an interesting personality and a solid motive, rather then him just being a man behind a curtain, who has no good reason for anything and just becomes a joke at the end. That seems like a lot of build up to just a disappointment. A movie often hinges on its climax, so having a lame climax doesn't help a film.
I agree, I think he should have a solid motive and I think he should clearly be somebody who has issues with and has shunned society in favor of the world he has created for himself. And I don't think he should be a joke.

The problem I see (and I think why many people don't see him as a worthy villain) is that he obviously doesn't present much of a physical threat by himself. The real physical threat needs to come from the monsters undr his control (in a similar way to how the physical threat from Doom should be androids and other devices and a physical confrontation should only be a last resort).

I would be reluctant with an obsession with Sue for two reasons:

1. That concept would bring back bad memories of Doom in the first film.
2. I'd like that sort of storyline reserved for Namor (though if Namor is never a possibility, we may lose that anyway).

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Old 09-09-2013, 03:36 PM   #35
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For Moleman to work he has to look more physically threatening imo

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Old 09-09-2013, 08:20 PM   #36
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what do you guys think of Puppet Master?

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Old 09-10-2013, 01:09 AM   #37
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what do you guys think of Puppet Master?
Visually very dull.

If you are going to do a story with a member of the team controlled by another force and turned against the group [which is about all PM can do] I think you would be better off using either of the classic story arcs from #41-43 [Frightful Four brainwashes the Thing] or from #68-71 [Mad Thinker turns Ben against the team]. I know they both involve the Thing, so pick one, but either is much more memorable than any Puppet Master story I can recall.

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Old 09-10-2013, 06:03 AM   #38
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yeah, Puppet Master would definitely need to be incorporated in a story that threatened the group for other reasons besides just him.
he's not a good villain to drive a whole movie on.

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Old 09-10-2013, 06:07 AM   #39
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Mad Thinker is too abstract I think and kind of silly, how he thinks things out tot he fraction of the minute they happen on.
FF has strange villains, cuz i think a lot of times, the conflict more rests on the FF vs themselves, or on the FF getting along with the villains up to a certain point and then they get pushed into having to take a stand for themselves.
Byut I see the FF franchise as being able to carry movies mostly just on the dynamic of the team...like how in Bond films, we couldn't care less really about who the villain was, they are mostly a menacing placeholder...
and the FF also I see as being more about adventuring and happening to run into villains every now and then.

how important was the villain in any Indiana Jones movie?
it's really not what the FF's about.

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Old 09-10-2013, 08:29 AM   #40
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I think in the Ultimate version they made Mole Man obsessed with the Storm family in general. He worked for Johnny and Sue's dad when they were little....

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Old 09-10-2013, 10:01 AM   #41
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The Thinker has his androids and he often teamed up with the Puppet Master. The Awesome Android with its power duplication abilities could be awesome...

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Old 09-10-2013, 01:45 PM   #42
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The Red Gost,Hate Monger or Impossible Man

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Old 09-10-2013, 11:34 PM   #43
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The Thinker has his androids and he often teamed up with the Puppet Master. The Awesome Android with its power duplication abilities could be awesome...
I always thought Mad Thinker was an interesting concept, that is hardly ever used right. He is like the Riddler, a character who can be an interesting and effective villain, but is hard to write, so often comes across as sub bar.

The Mad thinker is the kind of villain that works even better in the 21st century, he can essentially use the concept of psychohistory to predict almost anything, he could assassinate world leaders by moving a garbage can 3 blocks away, which would cause a chain of events that would make that leader's death look like an accident, he can predict societal trends and exploit them, he could broker information and coordinate villain attacks on heroes, he could make Oracle from the Batman Universe look like a 8 year old playing with a cell phone. Instead he is often just written as a third rate mad scientist, what a waste, few writers seem realize how dangerous he would really be or how interesting a concept psychohistory is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)

Plus he seems less obvious then other villains, he seems to be good at having plans withing plans and letting people guess what his true motives are. His first story had misdirection as to his true motives and he has helped the heroes from time to time, which makes his motives even more mysterious, why does he try to destroy heroes one moment and then help them the next, perhaps he has a larger plan in mind, though the writers don't seem to expand on that.

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I agree, I think he should have a solid motive and I think he should clearly be somebody who has issues with and has shunned society in favor of the world he has created for himself. And I don't think he should be a joke.

The problem I see (and I think why many people don't see him as a worthy villain) is that he obviously doesn't present much of a physical threat by himself. The real physical threat needs to come from the monsters undr his control (in a similar way to how the physical threat from Doom should be androids and other devices and a physical confrontation should only be a last resort).

I would be reluctant with an obsession with Sue for two reasons:

1. That concept would bring back bad memories of Doom in the first film.
2. I'd like that sort of storyline reserved for Namor (though if Namor is never a possibility, we may lose that anyway).
The thing is, if Mole Man shunned society in favor of the world of monsters underneath the Earth, why he would even bother with the surface world at that point? 616 Mole Man's are not very consistent, sometimes he just wants his underground kingdom to be left in peace, other times he is willing to endanger his underground kingdom to "get revenge on the surface world" because a few bimbos turned him down for a date. Mole man needs a better reason for revenge then that, if that is his motive, because that motive only works if Mole Man is petty and monstrous psychopath who wants to make the whole world pay, because of the actions of a few people, that's not sympathetic. So is Mole Man a sympathetic villain or a monstrous psychopath? If Mole Man is sympathetic, give more a defined revenge against a particular party, rather then the whole world.

As for Sue, just because Movie Doom was obsessed with Sue in the 2005 film, doesn't mean it isn't a motive that would work for another villain in another movie and really how often is Namor's romantic intentions towards Sue are played as creepy? It seems like Sue is willing to flirt with him to get Reed jealous or to get her way, so that makes it far less creepy then if the obsession was completely one sided. Ultimate Mole Man seems far more creepy then Namor is, because Marvel doesn't want Namor to be creepy. That's the fixation thing works with Mole man, its one sided so its creepy, like a stalker, instead of Sue willing to flirt with the handsome, but misunderstood bad boy.

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what do you guys think of Puppet Master?
Puppet Master is only kinda interesting because of two things, one he is a cool gimmick and two he is related to Alicia Masters, besides that, he is a pretty stock villain and Alicia Masters is more interesting then he is, he kinda leeches off her in terms of being an interesting character.


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Old 09-11-2013, 09:32 AM   #44
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The thing is, if Mole Man shunned society in favor of the world of monsters underneath the Earth, why he would even bother with the surface world at that point? 616 Mole Man's are not very consistent, sometimes he just wants his underground kingdom to be left in peace, other times he is willing to endanger his underground kingdom to "get revenge on the surface world" because a few bimbos turned him down for a date. Mole man needs a better reason for revenge then that, if that is his motive, because that motive only works if Mole Man is petty and monstrous psychopath who wants to make the whole world pay, because of the actions of a few people, that's not sympathetic. So is Mole Man a sympathetic villain or a monstrous psychopath? If Mole Man is sympathetic, give more a defined revenge against a particular party, rather then the whole world.

As for Sue, just because Movie Doom was obsessed with Sue in the 2005 film, doesn't mean it isn't a motive that would work for another villain in another movie and really how often is Namor's romantic intentions towards Sue are played as creepy? It seems like Sue is willing to flirt with him to get Reed jealous or to get her way, so that makes it far less creepy then if the obsession was completely one sided. Ultimate Mole Man seems far more creepy then Namor is, because Marvel doesn't want Namor to be creepy. That's the fixation thing works with Mole man, its one sided so its creepy, like a stalker, instead of Sue willing to flirt with the handsome, but misunderstood bad boy.
I think we're on the same page in terms of him not being a sympathetic character. I want him to be a vicious and dangerous threat. I'm not opposed to the idea of there being some history and connection, but the story definitely needs to be bigger and broader than that (heroism is never about self-preservation - heroism is about an individual or group of individuals giving themselves up for the greater good - that's an important concept that many authors need to consider more frequently than they do). The FF need to be fighting for society, not just protecting themselves from a stalker. And he certainly needs to be a psycopath, but that can happen with or without a connection to the Storms.

What was Hitler's motivation? What was Osama Bin Ladin's motivation?

It has to be bigger than a personal vendetta, and true psycopaths don't have 'motivation' in the way we recognize it. There can't be a logical reason for violent, sociapathic behavior or it, by definition, would no longer be sociapathic behavior. Comic-book films love to make it 'about a girl', but real life isn't like that. In real life, a bad relationship may act as a catalyst for a violent person, but there's always a lot more going on than that.

In terms of why he would bother, I would probably have the surface world threaten his world through some drilling or other exploration, but he could also be the aggressor with the intent of getting rid of the surface-world bastards, and there are a million variations between the extremes.

I'm fine with the idea that there could be some kind of personal connection/history, but the story needs to be bigger than that. The small-minded, personal vendetta story was one of the problems with the first film.

But I also think all of that shouldn't be revealed in the opening moments. It should be a discovery and a journey and in the end we find out who the Moleman is and what's going on. The audience shouldn't know that too soon.

Good storytelling is all about having secrets and choosing the right moments to reveal those secrets.

I would open with a scene very reminiscent of the cover of FF#1. Monsters attack NYC (or some other location) and the FF act to defend the city. As the story progresses, they investigate and their investigation leads them to a world they never knew existed. As they explore that world, they confront obstacles and dangers. I wouldn't have them discover or know anything about the Moleman until the final act.

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Old 09-11-2013, 08:04 PM   #45
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I think we're on the same page in terms of him not being a sympathetic character. I want him to be a vicious and dangerous threat. I'm not opposed to the idea of there being some history and connection, but the story definitely needs to be bigger and broader than that (heroism is never about self-preservation - heroism is about an individual or group of individuals giving themselves up for the greater good - that's an important concept that many authors need to consider more frequently than they do). The FF need to be fighting for society, not just protecting themselves from a stalker. And he certainly needs to be a psycopath, but that can happen with or without a connection to the Storms.
Ultimate Mole Man's motive wasn't solely a fixation with Sue, that was a secondary motive, his main motive was revenge on the government, who fired him and took his research after he tried to create artificial life with their resources, a villain can have more then one motive, the fixation on Sue just him look creepier and gives him more of a dynamic with the FF, but it would not be his main motive.

Ultimate Mole Man had a bit more a reasonable revenge scheme, he wanted revenge on a particular party for a particular reason, 616 Mole Man's motive only makes sense if he is a monstrous psychopath, because holding a grudge against the entire world because of some personal and professional set backs, is not the kind of the thing a general audience would find sympathetic or relatable, it comes off the kind of motive a lot of recent psychopaths have.

Really the difference between a sympathetic villain and an unsympathetic one is, how reasonable is their goal and motives?



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What was Hitler's motivation? What was Osama Bin Ladin's motivation?

It has to be bigger than a personal vendetta, and true psycopaths don't have 'motivation' in the way we recognize it. There can't be a logical reason for violent, sociapathic behavior or it, by definition, would no longer be sociapathic behavior. Comic-book films love to make it 'about a girl', but real life isn't like that. In real life, a bad relationship may act as a catalyst for a violent person, but there's always a lot more going on than that.
Hitler and bin Laden had motives, they were not just evil for no reason. They had ideologies and were motivated by historical events, such as WWI and the decline of the Islamic Empire, they are bad people, but there is a method to their madness.

Mole Man doesn't have an ideology connected with world events, that is the differences. Mole Man's motives don't seem to be epic in scope, being mad a few women turned him down, so its hard to give an epic scope to him. If he is just a psychopath, I suppose you can make him terrifying by using the mistreatment from a few people to justify a grudge against the world. Plus if you are going to present him as a unlikable psychopath, he is going to have to do some things to make the audience find him morally repulsive, if he is going to be that type of villain, he needs actions that define him as such, he should succeed killing some innocent people or have a monstrous end game. A movie can have fun characters, likable heroes and a fun tone and have terrifying villains, look at say Star Wars, which is a fun story, with likable heroes, where the villains blow up planets and kill billions of people.

And again I'm not suggesting that a fixation with Sue be his sole motivation, I just think it would make him creepier and if he is lonely, it would make sense, being attracted with a beautiful and famous super heroine. and takes their dynamic a bit beyond the usual generic hero vs. generic villain conflict.


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In terms of why he would bother, I would probably have the surface world threaten his world through some drilling or other exploration, but he could also be the aggressor with the intent of getting rid of the surface-world bastards, and there are a million variations between the extremes.

I'm fine with the idea that there could be some kind of personal connection/history, but the story needs to be bigger than that. The small-minded, personal vendetta story was one of the problems with the first film.

But I also think all of that shouldn't be revealed in the opening moments. It should be a discovery and a journey and in the end we find out who the Moleman is and what's going on. The audience shouldn't know that too soon.

Good storytelling is all about having secrets and choosing the right moments to reveal those secrets.

I would open with a scene very reminiscent of the cover of FF#1. Monsters attack NYC (or some other location) and the FF act to defend the city. As the story progresses, they investigate and their investigation leads them to a world they never knew existed. As they explore that world, they confront obstacles and dangers. I wouldn't have them discover or know anything about the Moleman until the final act.
But a build up needs a pay off, if you build up to who Mole Man is and then he turns what to be some random angry psychopath who the audience has never seen before, that is disappointing, such a build up needs more of a pay off then some random psychopath who no one has seen before. I think Mole Man does need some development, rather then just showing up in the climax.


Last edited by The Overlord; 09-11-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:13 PM   #46
Mightyally
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Default Re: Does anyone know who the villain is?

Kang and Annihilus are both awesome charachters.

Someone posted a picture of Super- Skrull which as a villain is awesome too but I wouldn´t like him. I´m not very fond of the all-their-powers-combined-in-one-evil-individual scenario.

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Old 09-14-2013, 06:46 PM   #47
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Default Re: Does anyone know who the villain is?

I'd love to see Simon Pegg as Mole Man or the Riddler.

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Old 09-27-2013, 05:44 PM   #48
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Default Re: Does anyone know who the villain is?

What's with the Mole Man love? He's a short fat guy who lives underground. I don't see him as being as cool as somebody like Super Skrull or Doctor Doom.

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Old 10-05-2013, 07:14 PM   #49
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Default Re: Does anyone know who the villain is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Tactics View Post
If character Kang first appeared in any non X-men,FF, or Spider-man they are exclusive to Marvel.. Kang is out of the question. The MCU doesn't even have to entertain the "Rama Tut" history
Sabertooth debuted in Iron Fist. Rogue debuted in Avengers. Mystique debuted in Ms. Marvel. Wolverine debuted in Hulk. I'm pretty sure there are exceptions.

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Old 10-09-2013, 12:15 AM   #50
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Default Re: Does anyone know who the villain is?

Has Kang ever been an FF villain...?

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