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Old 09-27-2013, 02:19 AM   #1
D.P.
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Default An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Why? Because there is real life precedent for it, and it would be cool as all hell.

Muhammad Ali and Bruce Lee come to mind. They were perhaps two of the greatest physical specimens ever seen. The feats that they performed were Godly and have yet to be replicated.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Bruce Lee playing ping pong against two men while using nunchucks:







Bruce Lee demonstrating the "One Inch Punch":



When given 6 inches:



Two Finger Pushups:



Ali incredible footwork:



Even more incredible reflexes:



I found a pretty cool article from Scientific American on whether or not a real life Batman could exist at this kind of physical peak. Here are some excerpts:

Quote:
What have comic books and movies told us about Batman's physical abilities?

There's a quote from Neal Adams, the great Batman illustrator, who said Batman would win, place or show in every event in the Olympics. Probably if I were Batman's handler, I'd put him in the decathlon. Although Batman is shown in the comics as being the fastest and the strongest and all these other things, in reality you can't actually be all of that at once. To be Batman properly, what you really need to do is be exceptionally good at many different things. It's when you take all the pieces and put them together that you get the Batman.
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How long would Bruce Wayne have to train to become Batman?

In some of the timelines you see in the comics, the backstory is he goes away for five years—some it's three to five years, or eight years, or 12 years. In terms of the physical changes (strength and conditioning), that's happening fairly quickly. We're talking three to five years. In terms of the physical skills to be able to defend himself against all these opponents all the time, I would benchmark that at 10 to 12 years. Probably the most reality-based representation of Batman and his training was in Batman Begins.
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Why such a long training time?

Batman can't really afford to lose. Losing means death—or at least not being able to be Batman anymore. But another benchmark is having enough skill and experience to defend himself without killing anyone. Because that's part of his credo. It would be much easier to fight somebody if you could incapacitate them with extreme force. Punching somebody in the throat could be a lethal blow. That's pretty easy to do.

But if you're thinking about something that doesn't result in lethal force, that's more tricky. It's really hard for people to get their heads around, I think. To be that good, to not actually lethally injure anyone, requires an extremely high level of skill that would take maybe 15 to 18 years to accumulate.
Quote:
What effects would all that training have on Bruce Wayne's body?

I looked up what DC Comics and some other books said (about Batman's physique). I settled on the estimate that Bruce Wayne started off at about six-foot-two and 185 pounds. I gave him a body fat of 20 percent (slightly below average) and a body mass index of 26. Let's say after 10 or 15 years, after he's become the Batman, he's weighing about 210 pounds and has a body fat of 10 percent. He's probably gained 40 pounds of muscle. His bones will actually be more dense, kind of the opposite of osteoporosis.
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Are we talking freakishly dense bones?

The percentage change is actually quite small—maybe 10 percent. In judo, where people do a lot of grappling and throwing, you're going to have more density in the long bones of the trunk. In karate and other martial arts where they're doing a lot of kicking, there's going to be a lot higher density in the legs. Muay Thai (kickboxing) is a great example. They're always doing these low shin kicks. They try to condition the body by kicking progressively harder objects and for longer.
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What about his reaction speed?

There is evidence that experts in something like football or hockey have an improved ability to perceive movement in time. In the book I use the example of Steve Nash throwing the ball, even though he can't see where the receiver of the pass is going to be. Experts are able to extract more information faster than others. It's almost like their nervous systems become more efficient.
To be clear, I'm not asking for a Batman that can beat Superman in a head up fight, because I know how that gets you Clark fanboys in a tizzy.

What I am asking for is a Batman that is superhuman by our standards. Based on our frame of reference, in a world with no aliens (yet), Batman would be the closest thing to superhuman just in terms of his feats.

As evidenced by the gifs of Lee and Ali, the feats they are performing are superhuman to us. They were at the peak of human conditioning and masters of their craft all while doing things that I'm sure 99.99% of the population could not.

Nolan's Batman was kind of underwhelming in this regard. Although the training montage with the League in Begins was made up of the kind of stuff that should have produced a high-peformance, olympic-level Batman, it didn't translate into his skillset as much as I would have liked it to when he actually became The Batman.

Balancing on wooden beams while taking blows from every direction to improve bone density and toughness is cool looking, but meaningless if he doesn't do anything cool once he puts on the cowl.

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Old 09-27-2013, 02:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

I got the impression that the suit in the Nolan films was so bulky, that Batman would not even be able to sprint.

He has all the physical power and strength and agility, he should have them WHILE he is wearing the suit. He should move like a bullet WHILE he is wearing the suit.

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Old 09-27-2013, 02:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by slumcat View Post
I got the impression that the suit in the Nolan films was so bulky, that Batman would not even be able to sprint.

He has all the physical power and strength and agility, he should have them WHILE he is wearing the suit. He should move like a bullet WHILE he is wearing the suit.
Pretty much what the flexible fabric crowd as been saying for years.

There is nothing wrong with a highly agile Batman with the reflexes of a cat on screen.

And if Robin/Nightwing is ever introduced in the solo films, I want gymnast level ability and parkour-esque movement out of him.

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Old 09-27-2013, 03:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

They had Cavill wearing a fitted suit, but yet he was very fast in the action scenes. Though that was of course CGI.

Infact during the Faora fight scene, Snyder used fast motion instead of slow motion to show how fast the Kryptonians moved.

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Old 09-27-2013, 05:45 AM   #5
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by D.P. View Post
Pretty much what the flexible fabric crowd as been saying for years.

There is nothing wrong with a highly agile Batman with the reflexes of a cat on screen.

And if Robin/Nightwing is ever introduced in the solo films, I want gymnast level ability and parkour-esque movement out of him.
A big plus one to all of this. Batman has been portrayed from the very beginning as a highly athletic person with a lot of gymnastic and parkour-esque moves, (very quick and agile, just like a bat) one feature that has been woefully lacking in every single live-action representation to date. I'd really like to see that along with a proper fabric suit to allow this maneuverability in this next version. It'll be about bloody time we got this if it happens.

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Old 09-27-2013, 06:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Parkour must be really difficult to shoot though. I'd imagine they'd have to shoot a scene several dozen times or simply animated the cape, because it would probably get constantly stuck somewhere.

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Old 09-27-2013, 07:50 AM   #7
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

The Bruce Lee ping pong gifs make a strong argument...


... haha... not really.

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Old 09-27-2013, 07:53 AM   #8
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

The Bruce Lee ping pong gifs make a strong argument...


... haha... not really.

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Old 09-27-2013, 11:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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The Bruce Lee ping pong gifs make a strong argument...


... haha... not really.


...Extremely high level hand-eye coordination? Speed? Reflexes?

He spin kicks a ping pong ball one point and doesn't miss a step, all while keeping the ball legally in play...

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Old 09-27-2013, 11:45 AM   #10
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by slumcat View Post
I got the impression that the suit in the Nolan films was so bulky, that Batman would not even be able to sprint.

He has all the physical power and strength and agility, he should have them WHILE he is wearing the suit. He should move like a bullet WHILE he is wearing the suit.
This is how Batman should fight I think a big suit kind of stands in the way of that.

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Old 09-27-2013, 12:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Actually the Bruce Lee ping pong gifs are not real. The video those gifs are from came from a Nokia commercial that used a lookalike and a CGI ping pong ball.

Bruce was indeed "superhuman" however and is a great example of a human in peak physical and mental condition.

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Old 09-27-2013, 02:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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...Extremely high level hand-eye coordination? Speed? Reflexes?

He spin kicks a ping pong ball one point and doesn't miss a step, all while keeping the ball legally in play...
Isn't this a Nokia viral ad?

I hear ya about him showing him more in peak human condition, but the title of the thread strikes me as a little strange -- would there even be an argument against a Batman who's at the peak of human conditioning?

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Old 09-27-2013, 02:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

I'm actually not interested in a Batman that ISN'T at peak human condition....which is another reason I couldn't get into the Dark Knight trilogy.

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Old 09-27-2013, 08:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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I'm actually not interested in a Batman that ISN'T at peak human condition....which is another reason I couldn't get into the Dark Knight trilogy.
He was in amazing condition in those movies, except for the third movies, where the injuries and ageing process added depth to the characterisation. Even if Batman is Bruce Lee, he will still age.

I for one am not interested in Batman who builds all his weapons, who is the effective CEO of Wayne Enterprises, and who is in peak physical condition and never gets injured. That simply doesn't work for a mature and educated audience. It might work for the legions of 12 year olds who love Tony Stark's "genius, billionaire, philanthropist, playboy, fortune 500 CEO, superhero" shtick.

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Old 09-27-2013, 08:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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That simply doesn't work for a mature and educated audience.
Are we talking about the same educated audience that has no issue with Batman healing his back in 3 months time, or the fact that he falls off a building, holding onto another person and doesn't die on impact?

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Old 09-27-2013, 08:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Are we talking about the same educated audience that has no issue with Batman healing his back in 3 months time, or the fact that he falls off a building, holding onto another person and doesn't die on impact?
For the latter, are you talking about the scene in TDK when he drops that mobster? It didn't really bother me, the building wasn't that high and he wears a protective suit that can dampen the effect of hard impacts. He also would know how to fall. A lot of people have survived much harder falls without injury because they knew how to land.

As for him healing his back in three months, I recall that people did complain about that scene, and that in general satisfaction with the third movie was lower because the script had several eye roll moments. It had that, it had Robin figure out who Batman was based on the look of his face, Catwoman beating up people twice her size with ease, 3,000 police officers surviving for 3 months in total isolation, Bruce Wayne somehow getting back into Gotham and finding Selina Kyle first thing, and Batman somehow surviving a nuclear blast.

Finally, these are different kinds of maturity and education. Very few people have medical degrees. A lot more people will roll their eyes if Bruce Wayne can be an effective Batman every night for decades, run Wayne Enterprises a s a full-time CEO, and build all his weapons in his spare time. The latter is vastly more ridiculous.


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Old 09-28-2013, 01:07 AM   #17
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.



Guys, I'm aware the ping pong thing isn't real, that's not the point. It looks cool.

This is why people can't allow themselves to enjoy these movies because they are too worried about every minute detail measuring up to real life. Nolan has somewhat ruined Batman for his predecessors in that regard.

Sorry, I don't want watered down Batman. Please suspend your disbelief and let's stay on topic, lol.

I know I'm not the only one who wants their Batman throwing multiple Batarangs with deadly accuracy mid-fight while fluidly dispatching goons. We've all played Arkham.

Also, to be clear, this isn't a thread about Batman's fighting style, because we have one of those already. This is more so about the level at which he performs.

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:15 AM   #18
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Guys, I'm aware the ping pong thing isn't real, that's not the point. It looks cool.
I think you really did believe those gifs were real.

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:18 AM   #19
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

For both hand to hand combat, and all the other skills Batman should ideally at least be somewhat adept at, a film could not go wrong in my mind if it plays up how Batman trains, and trains and trains, and then trains some more. I would die if in a solo Batman movie almost all of Bruce's convos with Alfred were done while he is keeping up his martial arts or parkour. Show that the victory for Bats is in the.... PREP TIME? It's true though. Peak condition is not something that you achieve and that's it. It's a constant struggle and we should get the impression that when he's not attending to Wayne Enterprise business or rehabbing injuries that Batman conditioning mind and body like the love child of a Navy SEAL, a Shaolin Monk and an Olympic Gymnast.

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:19 AM   #20
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HayAoH0ZAL8

This is real :P

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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I think you really did believe those gifs were real.

I thought I had come across something as a JKD guy that I had never seen. Now I'm disappointed to know it's from an ad from a few years back.

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:24 AM   #22
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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We've all played Arkham.
We most definitely have not.

The video game is obscure on a pop culture basis, it has sold 2.5 million units worldwide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:...m_Asylum#Sales

In contrast, the second and third Nolan Batman movies sold ~100,000,000 movie tickets. That factor of 40 encompasses the transition from "obscure" to "mass market".

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Nolan has somewhat ruined Batman for his predecessors in that regard.
No, he's made it better. TDK is broadly considered the greatest superhero movie ever made: it's got the highest Rotten Tomatoes score, the highest IMDB score, and the most oscars.

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:42 AM   #23
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

I personally think TDK is not even in the Top 10 of the best superhero movies ever made.

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:52 AM   #24
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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I personally think TDK is not even in the Top 10 of the best superhero movies ever made.
I wrote "broadly considered", not "universally considered". I know that there are rare people who don't like it, there's no work of art that doesn't have detractors. That doesn't negate the overall greatness.

I wouldn't be surprised if I don't see a better superhero movie in my lifetime.

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Old 09-28-2013, 01:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by teagone View Post
I think you really did believe those gifs were real.
Uh, if it tickles your funny bone to believe that, go ahead, I won't stop you.


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We most definitely have not.

The video game is obscure on a pop culture basis, it has sold 2.5 million units worldwide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:...m_Asylum#Sales

In contrast, the second and third Nolan Batman movies sold ~100,000,000 movie tickets. That factor of 40 encompasses the transition from "obscure" to "mass market".


No, he's made it better. TDK is broadly considered the greatest superhero movie ever made: it's got the highest Rotten Tomatoes score, the highest IMDB score, and the most oscars.
I think you are either taking what I said extremely literal on purpose, or the context of what I'm saying it just lost on you. I'm not sure why anyone would think I literally meant everybody has played Arkham or that Nolan literally ruined Batman.

To respond to what you said, most people here are hardcore fans in the 18-35 age range. It's safe to say a lot of the Batman/DC fans on the forum have played Arkham.

No need to go pulling stats out, I wasn't making it a competition between the video games and a billion dollar movie franchise.

As far as Nolan, he ruined Batman movies for those who have to follow behind him because people love to enslave themselves to his vision of Batman and are scared to deviate.

I enjoyed the movies wholeheartedly, but it's time for something new.

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