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Old 09-28-2013, 01:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

It's certainly true that it is always hard and intimidating to be the successor to someone incredibly successful.

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Old 09-28-2013, 02:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

It's Zack Snyder. Batman will probably fight beyond the ability of a human being at their peak. I mean that both in a literal and visual sense. It was sort of established to us in the Nolan series but through clunky and at times questionable choreography (that's not a dig at the series because anyone that's been here long enough knows I love the Nolan Batman series to death).

Remember how NiteOwl or Ozymandias fought? Well multiply that times 10 and that's probably the type of stuff Batman will be pulling off.

Snyder will not waste this opportunity to not show OP (over powered) fighting Batman.

I for one am super excited to see this because quite frankly that's an area we've never quite seen Batman in. At least when it comes to live action.

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Old 09-28-2013, 02:50 AM   #28
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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I personally think TDK is not even in the Top 10 of the best superhero movies ever made.
Lol, I can't even think of 10 legitimately great superhero films, and 3 of the top ones I can think of were Nolan films.

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Old 09-28-2013, 03:22 AM   #29
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by craigdbfan View Post
It's Zack Snyder. Batman will probably fight beyond the ability of a human being at their peak. I mean that both in a literal and visual sense. It was sort of established to us in the Nolan series but through clunky and at times questionable choreography (that's not a dig at the series because anyone that's been here long enough knows I love the Nolan Batman series to death).

Remember how NiteOwl or Ozymandias fought? Well multiply that times 10 and that's probably the type of stuff Batman will be pulling off.

Snyder will not waste this opportunity to not show OP (over powered) fighting Batman.

I for one am super excited to see this because quite frankly that's an area we've never quite seen Batman in. At least when it comes to live action.
I think 300 might be a better analogy. Leonidas was in peak human condition, but he wasn't superman, and his imperfections led to many mistakes. For example, he tried to kill Xerxes with a spear and failed, barely. His aim was good, but not perfect.

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Lol, I can't even think of 10 legitimately great superhero films, and 3 of the top ones I can think of were Nolan films.
Yes, I agree. How many great superhero movies have there been? Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Sin City, X-Men: First Class... and I think those four are stretching it.

The vast majority of CBMs are very bad.


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Old 09-28-2013, 04:16 AM   #30
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by craigdbfan View Post
It's Zack Snyder. Batman will probably fight beyond the ability of a human being at their peak. I mean that both in a literal and visual sense. It was sort of established to us in the Nolan series but through clunky and at times questionable choreography (that's not a dig at the series because anyone that's been here long enough knows I love the Nolan Batman series to death).

Remember how NiteOwl or Ozymandias fought? Well multiply that times 10 and that's probably the type of stuff Batman will be pulling off.

Snyder will not waste this opportunity to not show OP (over powered) fighting Batman.

I for one am super excited to see this because quite frankly that's an area we've never quite seen Batman in. At least when it comes to live action.
True indeed, which is what I'm hoping for.












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Old 09-28-2013, 09:18 AM   #31
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by craigdbfan View Post
It's Zack Snyder. Batman will probably fight beyond the ability of a human being at their peak. I mean that both in a literal and visual sense. It was sort of established to us in the Nolan series but through clunky and at times questionable choreography (that's not a dig at the series because anyone that's been here long enough knows I love the Nolan Batman series to death).

Remember how NiteOwl or Ozymandias fought? Well multiply that times 10 and that's probably the type of stuff Batman will be pulling off.

Snyder will not waste this opportunity to not show OP (over powered) fighting Batman.

I for one am super excited to see this because quite frankly that's an area we've never quite seen Batman in. At least when it comes to live action.
If we can be assured of anything from Snyder, it's this. Batman will be the Ozymandias of the movie, clearly above and beyond the average person. Heck even the average non-superpowered hero.

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Old 09-28-2013, 04:23 PM   #32
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigdbfan View Post
It's Zack Snyder. Batman will probably fight beyond the ability of a human being at their peak. I mean that both in a literal and visual sense. It was sort of established to us in the Nolan series but through clunky and at times questionable choreography (that's not a dig at the series because anyone that's been here long enough knows I love the Nolan Batman series to death).

Remember how NiteOwl or Ozymandias fought? Well multiply that times 10 and that's probably the type of stuff Batman will be pulling off.

Snyder will not waste this opportunity to not show OP (over powered) fighting Batman.

I for one am super excited to see this because quite frankly that's an area we've never quite seen Batman in. At least when it comes to live action.
Or Snyder might be to scared and may try to emulate what Nolan did, lol imagine if he did that boy would that suck.

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:12 AM   #33
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Or Snyder might be to scared and may try to emulate what Nolan did, lol imagine if he did that boy would that suck.
Well, if there is one thing we will never have to worry about, it's Snyder being scared to do his thing.

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Old 09-29-2013, 01:28 AM   #34
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Word.

He wasn't scared doing it with Superman so I doubt he'll be scared doing it with Batman.

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Old 09-29-2013, 06:14 AM   #35
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Word.

He wasn't scared doing it with Superman so I doubt he'll be scared doing it with Batman.
He listened to people about his slow mo style and even went about using other directors visual flairs, the only thing that was remotely Snyder in MOS with the overblown action. At different points in the film it looked like another directors work. I hope he does his thing with Batman, I know the script will probably be terrible with Goyer at the helm at least we can enjoy the action.

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Old 09-29-2013, 06:36 AM   #36
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Whenever I think of Batman, the most logical body type is Lennox Lewis. In fighting condition, Lewis was 6' 5" and 250lbs. He was extremely agile for a heavyweight, and his muscle mass was functional because it was packed on very long limbs. He had the kind of body that made it difficult to get inside on him, and he was strong enough to rattle an opponent with a single punch.

Moreover, that kind of frame would be difficult to manipulate. As a vigilante who would randomly encounter multiple attackers, Bats would have to have a body and mindset to take out opponents as quickly as possible. That means strength and mass combined with martial arts expertise.

Now, could someone like that have gymnast agility? Probably not, but it's not out of the realm of extreme plausibility. That's where Batman exists--the outer edge of physical perfection in every aspect.

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Old 09-29-2013, 01:28 PM   #37
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

The idea behind this thread is great, but the fact that it devolved into a Nolan bashing/ TDKT hate thread makes it almost unreadable.

Bruce was peak human in the Nolan movies. How could he do the vanishing, or beat up 10 highly trained guys at once, if he weren't?!?

You don't like the choreography or the style? Ok. But don't start trolling.

Besides that, we will never see a Batman move like you want him to, since its impossible in that kind of suit, especially with the vision and hearing restrictions that the cowl brings with it.

And @slumcat: you are easily my least favorite poster on the hype. You bring down every thread you enter and just suck any fun out of anything. You are a well mannered troll, but a troll none the less.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:43 PM   #38
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
We most definitely have not.

The video game is obscure on a pop culture basis, it has sold 2.5 million units worldwide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:...m_Asylum#SalesIn contrast, the second and third Nolan Batman movies sold ~100,000,000 movie tickets. That factor of 40 encompasses the transition from "obscure" to "mass market".


No, he's made it better. TDK is broadly considered the greatest superhero movie ever made: it's got the highest Rotten Tomatoes score, the highest IMDB score, and the most oscars.
Hate to be that guy, but:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31494/b...arkham-asylum/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31493/b...arkham-asylum/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31495/b...arkham-asylum/

Arkham Asylum sold over 7 million copies and Arkham City:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41799/batman-arkham-city/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41800/batman-arkham-city/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41801/batman-arkham-city/

Over an addition 8 million. Then there are the special editions of the games for which there aren't any sales figures.

Also, there's a disparity in media. One is home media, and one is not. For example, a lot of people go and see films more than once, so that would need to be factored in for sales, whereas a game only needs to be bought once, then it can be replayed as many times as you want, it can be lent out, sold and resold, whereas film tickets can't.

A better example is when home media sales are compared to home media sales, in which Arkham suddenly holds up much, much better. The Arkham franchise all in all contains a little over 16 million sales. Now, The Dark Knight alone beats that with almost 18 million, but The Dark Knight Rises fares much worse, with only just scraping over 5 million sales. So combined TDK/R have 23 million sales compared to Arkham's 16, but that then means Arkham makes up over 75% of that same audience.

The films reach a wider one-time audience, but but in terms of pop culture conciousness, there isn't massive disparity in the long term impact between series. I'd also like to add Batman '89 outsold The Dark Knight Rises in ticket sales. But cross-media comparisons never work.

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Old 09-30-2013, 01:53 AM   #39
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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The idea behind this thread is great, but the fact that it devolved into a Nolan bashing/ TDKT hate thread makes it almost unreadable.

Bruce was peak human in the Nolan movies. How could he do the vanishing, or beat up 10 highly trained guys at once, if he weren't?!?

You don't like the choreography or the style? Ok. But don't start trolling.

Besides that, we will never see a Batman move like you want him to, since its impossible in that kind of suit, especially with the vision and hearing restrictions that the cowl brings with it.

And @slumcat: you are easily my least favorite poster on the hype. You bring down every thread you enter and just suck any fun out of anything. You are a well mannered troll, but a troll none the less.
Thanks, I thought the idea was great as well, but people seemed more concerned with mincing words and arguing over semantics than staying on topic.

I don't hate TDKT, I just felt Bruce could have displayed more of his skill. For some reason it was taken as a diss towards Nolan and derailed the thread.

Also, I wouldn't say never. The suit and a creative team with vision are the only things needed to realize the idea of peak condition, super athletic Batman. We may be in luck with Snyder.

PM slumcat if you have an issue with him, don't sully the thread. Thanks.

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Old 09-30-2013, 02:18 AM   #40
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Hate to be that guy, but:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31494/b...arkham-asylum/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31493/b...arkham-asylum/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31495/b...arkham-asylum/

Arkham Asylum sold over 7 million copies and Arkham City:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41799/batman-arkham-city/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41800/batman-arkham-city/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/41801/batman-arkham-city/

Over an addition 8 million. Then there are the special editions of the games for which there aren't any sales figures.

Also, there's a disparity in media. One is home media, and one is not. For example, a lot of people go and see films more than once, so that would need to be factored in for sales, whereas a game only needs to be bought once, then it can be replayed as many times as you want, it can be lent out, sold and resold, whereas film tickets can't.

A better example is when home media sales are compared to home media sales, in which Arkham suddenly holds up much, much better. The Arkham franchise all in all contains a little over 16 million sales. Now, The Dark Knight alone beats that with almost 18 million, but The Dark Knight Rises fares much worse, with only just scraping over 5 million sales. So combined TDK/R have 23 million sales compared to Arkham's 16, but that then means Arkham makes up over 75% of that same audience.

The films reach a wider one-time audience, but but in terms of pop culture conciousness, there isn't massive disparity in the long term impact between series. I'd also like to add Batman '89 outsold The Dark Knight Rises in ticket sales. But cross-media comparisons never work.
I hate to be that guy, but:

You write down, for example, that The Dark Knight sold 18 million units. Yeah, it sold 18 million DVDs... but that doesn't include the number of blu ray units, the number of digital copies sold, and international sales:
http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/BATM2.php
Oh yeah, and it doesn't include the platform sales for the platform known as the movie theatre. For that one, ~100,000,000 tickets were sold, implying at least ~50,000,000 viewers.

Whereas with Batman: Arkham Asylum, you are taking in total sales across every platform (which you're not doing for TDK), and you're including both domestic and international sales figures. That's why you have a less lopsided total, you are cherrypicking your statistics.

So even if we take the 7 million consumers of Arkham: Asylum, it still does not compare very well at all. It's still an obscure property. I'm glad you enjoy it, I'm glad a lot of people enjoy it, but to argue that the Batman movies should be structured as fan service to consumers of Arkham Asylum the video game is nonsense.


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Old 09-30-2013, 02:39 AM   #41
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Whenever I think of Batman, the most logical body type is Lennox Lewis. In fighting condition, Lewis was 6' 5" and 250lbs. He was extremely agile for a heavyweight, and his muscle mass was functional because it was packed on very long limbs. He had the kind of body that made it difficult to get inside on him, and he was strong enough to rattle an opponent with a single punch.

Moreover, that kind of frame would be difficult to manipulate. As a vigilante who would randomly encounter multiple attackers, Bats would have to have a body and mindset to take out opponents as quickly as possible. That means strength and mass combined with martial arts expertise.

Now, could someone like that have gymnast agility? Probably not, but it's not out of the realm of extreme plausibility. That's where Batman exists--the outer edge of physical perfection in every aspect.
I don't know, Lennox was pretty damn huge man. I would imagine my ideal real life version of Batman to be built like a gymnast or Olympic swimmer.

At first mention, you'd probably roll your eyes at the thought of Batman being built like a gymnast or swimmer, but those dudes are solid yet slim and not as bulky. It would allow for him to perform feats of agility but also kick ass.

Found some more examples of Bruce being a peak level athlete:

Blindfolded gymnastics...



The balance of a Grayson...



Tight situation...


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Just know that before you make a "Double Penetration" joke, it's been done.

Also, please tell us how incompetent Snyder and Goyer are. Repeatedly. We didn't hear you the first 56 times.

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Old 09-30-2013, 12:01 PM   #42
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Regarding sales figures comparisons, there's also the matter of price disparity.
Video games make BILLIONS far more frequently than films.

GTA V crossed the $1 billion in just 3 days. Granted, that was a record, but compared to films, Avatar, HP and the Deathly Hollows pt 2, and The Avengers all hit the $1 billion mark in 19 days; Arguably, The Avengers is a bit more impressive as it had only been in North American Markets for 10 days at that point, where as the former two films both opened in NA markets the same week as they did internationally.

http://filmonic.com/international-bo...each-1-billion

On that note, outside of Disney (which has had 5 films hit the big B mark,) no film studio has had more than 2 pictures hit that mark.

I can't seem to find any indication on how many billion dollar games the different game companies each have, though I imagine it's a tad bit more common.

Looking at world wide sales, video game sales dwarf films. In some countries, videos games generate more than DOUBLE what films are pulling in WORLD WIDE.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry
http://www.the-numbers.com/market/

Point of clarification, I'm not sure if those numbers are referring to just total sales, or total profits, which means the comparisons could be a bit off, though video games still dwarf film in terms of money generated in sales.

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Old 09-30-2013, 12:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Have Batman be like Ozymandias in Watchmen how he moves to avoid thouse gunshots during the assasination attempt. Sneaky quick. I have no doubt that Zack Snyder will make his physicality pretty damn bad@ss and brutal.

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Old 09-30-2013, 01:47 PM   #44
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

I think one of the biggest undressed issues with Batman's physical abilities in his movies has always been the limited movement due to the costumes. It wasn't until the last two movies that actors playing Batman could even turn their heads and you could tell that movement was still limited with the TDK/TDKR suit.

The Batman fight choreography has been hamstrung by the costumes.

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Old 09-30-2013, 01:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
I hate to be that guy, but:

You write down, for example, that The Dark Knight sold 18 million units. Yeah, it sold 18 million DVDs... but that doesn't include the number of blu ray units, the number of digital copies sold, and international sales:
http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/BATM2.php
Oh yeah, and it doesn't include the platform sales for the platform known as the movie theatre. For that one, ~100,000,000 tickets were sold, implying at least ~50,000,000 viewers.
I didn't realise the results missed out BR releases (not much of an issue for The Dark Knight given the sales would still be heavily DVD based). But seeing a film before home media release is not a "sale" it's a service, you don't own the film, you pay to see someone else's copy.

Quote:
Whereas with Batman: Arkham Asylum, you are taking in total sales across every platform (which you're not doing for TDK), and you're including both domestic and international sales figures. That's why you have a less lopsided total, you are cherrypicking your statistics.
I'm not including every media, just the three that it's easiest to find sales for, iOS also sells Arkham stuff.

Quote:
So even if we take the 7 million consumers of Arkham: Asylum, it still does not compare very well at all. It's still an obscure property. I'm glad you enjoy it, I'm glad a lot of people enjoy it, but to argue that the Batman movies should be structured as fan service to consumers of Arkham Asylum the video game is nonsense.
This argument was about people wanting Arkham Batman? I only got involved because I saw some incorrect statistics (and then provided my own, so we're both at fault there).

But this still doesn't mean anything because as I said, cross media comparisons don't work. For example, as someone else pointed out, popular games make more money than films (Arkham isn't that popular even within gaming, it's not to gaming what superheroes are to cinema), so why wouldn't WB take cues from their own projects?

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Old 10-14-2013, 01:03 AM   #46
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Repost of mine from the fighting style thread.

Peak markmanship with Batarangs:

Quote:
Speaking of comic book accurate Batarangs...

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


You know, the more and more you research the real life counterparts of what Batman does in terms of fighting, training, and techniques, you almost gain a new sense of respect and wonder for the character.

I think it's because you slowly realize that all of these things can be done by a real person if they completely dedicated themselves to it 100%. That's really what makes Batman great.
Peak agility in an urban landscape:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Amazing feats by Shaolin Monks:



Throwing a needle through a piece of glass.



Monk balancing on two fingers.



Near superhuman speed and reaction time.



Ability to absorb blows at full force.

Shaolin Monks go through brutal and rigorous mental/physical training in order to reach the peak of human conditioning.



As we know from the comics, Bruce spent many years training under all sorts of masters of various disciplines.


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Also, please tell us how incompetent Snyder and Goyer are. Repeatedly. We didn't hear you the first 56 times.
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:39 AM   #47
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by D.P. View Post
I don't know, Lennox was pretty damn huge man. I would imagine my ideal real life version of Batman to be built like a gymnast or Olympic swimmer.

At first mention, you'd probably roll your eyes at the thought of Batman being built like a gymnast or swimmer, but those dudes are solid yet slim and not as bulky. It would allow for him to perform feats of agility but also kick ass.
There's nothing wrong with Bats being like a gymnast if this was an origin story, so I wouldn't roll my eyes. But, according to WB, this is supposed to be an "older,grizzled" Batman, not a 22-year-old version. I'm not sure I've ever seen a middle-aged gymnast or swimmer in the Olympics. If so, they were only the exception that proved the rule.

It seems to me that Affleck (based on a couple of recent pictures) is going for something like the Dark Knight Returns Batman. Now that version was idealized, so Affleck probably won't be able to get that bulky, but I'm guessing that is the template.

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Last edited by Scar Predator; 10-15-2013 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:52 AM   #48
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by Scar Predator View Post
There's nothing wrong with Bats being like a gymnast if this was an origin story, so I wouldn't roll my eyes. But, according to WB, this is supposed to be an "older,grizzled" Batman, not a 22-year-old version. I'm not sure I've ever seen a middle-aged gymnast or swimmer in the Olympics. If so, they were only the exception that proved the rule.


They are out there my friend.

Quote:
Yordan Yovchev
— Gymnast —

Personal information
Country represented Bulgaria
Born February 24, 1973 (age 40)
Plovdiv
Height 1.60 m (5 ft 3 in)
Discipline Men's artistic gymnastics




Quote:
On Saturday, the Bulgarian strongman will be the oldest competitor to stride, or even hobble, out at the North Greenwich Arena for what will be a record sixth Olympics for a gymnast.

With his distinctive salt-and-pepper hair, Iovtchev could easily be mistaken as an official or a coach whenever he marches into a sporting arena. But lift him up on his signature apparatus, the rings, and the years fade away.

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Also, please tell us how incompetent Snyder and Goyer are. Repeatedly. We didn't hear you the first 56 times.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:02 AM   #49
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

I've always thought Batman would start out for a gymnast's build and powerset and work from there...

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Old 10-14-2013, 11:45 AM   #50
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Originally Posted by craigdbfan View Post
It's Zack Snyder. Batman will probably fight beyond the ability of a human being at their peak. I mean that both in a literal and visual sense. It was sort of established to us in the Nolan series but through clunky and at times questionable choreography (that's not a dig at the series because anyone that's been here long enough knows I love the Nolan Batman series to death).

Remember how NiteOwl or Ozymandias fought? Well multiply that times 10 and that's probably the type of stuff Batman will be pulling off.

Snyder will not waste this opportunity to not show OP (over powered) fighting Batman.

I for one am super excited to see this because quite frankly that's an area we've never quite seen Batman in. At least when it comes to live action.
This.

I keep thinking of the fight style of Batman in the Arkham Asylum & Arkham City games. Taking on 5 or more untrained thugs at ones hitting them with violent, powerful blows that either put them down or make them think twice about coming back at him again.

I want to see him actually injure some people who are coming at him. It's a cop out in some films were 1 guy is taking on about 4 or 5 that he somehow knocks them all out & just walks away. I want to see some variation in how he incapacitates people, broken ribs, hands, dislocated shoulders, knees etc. Or via one of his many gadgets that will be I believe we can assume a little more Superman world friendly.

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