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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:01 AM   #251
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

I'm gonna lay it out plain and simple about Supes killing Zod.

There was nothing wrong with him killing Zod nor the concept that it would be a catalyst for his reluctance to kill, even super villains.

HOWEVER, the fact that this wasn't brought up at any other point and the film, nor built up as a plot point of "How will I take down Zod without killing him" is what was wrong.

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:02 AM   #252
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I'd definitely like to see Goyer paired with someone else for scripting duties on the movie currently known as nothing, but I don't think Nolan is right for (the character of) Superman in particular.
Yeah, don't see Nolan's sensibilities matching with Superman's, really. Glad that Affleck is on board because he's likely to have creative input on the script and even direction.

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:07 AM   #253
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I'd definitely like to see Goyer paired with someone else for scripting duties on the movie currently known as nothing, but I don't think Nolan is right for (the character of) Superman in particular.
Nolan may not be right person to write Superman, but he's possibly perfect for developing Lex Luthor.

Right now, with respect to BvS, I'd settle for a simple dialogue editor. I don't think someone is going to fix up Goyer's story, him and Snyder are probably really attached to it. However, there's something to be said for a good dialogue polish. We don't need more dumb, awkward **** like "what if I need to tinkle?", "they say it all goes downhill after the first kiss," and "you're a monster Zod and I'm going to stop you."

On the other hand, if the movie is a complete disaster, they might start over and pass the helm to more capable hands.


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Old 09-29-2013, 04:28 AM   #254
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I'm gonna lay it out plain and simple about Supes killing Zod.

There was nothing wrong with him killing Zod nor the concept that it would be a catalyst for his reluctance to kill, even super villains.

HOWEVER, the fact that this wasn't brought up at any other point and the film, nor built up as a plot point of "How will I take down Zod without killing him" is what was wrong.
It seem to come totally out of the blue. Although, in the movie's defence, that could be the whole point, a rookie Superman making a er snap judgement.

But thematically, I find it at odds with the Jesus metaphor we were thunked over the head with. Don't recall Jesus returning from the dead to turn Pontius Pilate's cheek towards his other cheek.

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:42 AM   #255
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It seem to come totally out of the blue. Although, in the movie's defence, that could be the whole point, a rookie Superman making a er snap judgement.

But thematically, I find it at odds with the Jesus metaphor we were thunked over the head with. Don't recall Jesus returning from the dead to turn Pontius Pilate's cheek towards his other cheek.
The Jesus allegory in this film is one of the shallowest I've seen anywhere. They took one of the most powerful stories in human history -- and I say this as an agnostic individual of Jewish background -- and turned it into a series of trivia. Clark being 33 years old, Clark seeking advice from a random churchman that has a painting of the Garden of Gethsemane, none of it is organic to the plot with the sole exception of the "virgin birth" which wasn't even developed at all. It's plastered on, like a series of easter eggs. The fact is Clark is 33 and not 23 doesn't change anything about the movie, so why is Goyer shouting "jesus! jesus!" at us, pulling us out of the film?

It's too bad, because to (briefly) go over the story of Jesus... wow. One day there was a somewhat charismatic man preaching a message of hope in a distant Roman province... and three hundred years later, his teachings became the official religion of the empire, and gave that part of the world the cohesiveness needed for the empire's descendants (western civilisation) to be so primary over the following 2000 years. This might be the greatest story ever. A lot this, all of this, is due to Jesus being in the right place at the right time, that he lived in a time and place of social despair, where people needed and wnated to hear his message. You can run a great allegory with that in a movie: see The Matrix, see The Hunger Games. If you try and take the man of Jesus, and the method of Jesus, and put him in a completely different time and place, it wouldn't work.

An example of how it could work, is if they played up the cynicism in the world, and they showed Superman gradually and slowly bringing hope to the world for a better way, not in a big party, but one miracle at a time, one disciple at a time. You can even make that the reason he emerges to the world, of his own will. Both The Matrix and The Hunger Games did this.

Goyer basically only focused on the New Testament, and ignored the actual historical context of Jesus, which is a lot more interesting and objectively a lot more powerful, since it's real. The latter is an intrinsically logical story since it actually happened (reforming the Roman empire), and it is an intrinsically powerful story, since it changed the world. It can be meaningful even to someone who has no ties to Christianity.


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Old 09-29-2013, 07:30 AM   #256
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

I actually wish Superman snapping Zods neck was the sole problem with this movie, sadly its far from it. I know people have given excuse after excuse about this but the more I think about it the more it annoys me. Superman was just to darn reckless in this movie, no thoughts whatsoever for the civilians and everyday folks he claimed to be trying to protect. Even the police and Military take into account collateral damage when engaging criminals and if Superman (the beacon of hope) doesn't then his just a brutish thug with Super powers. I don't care what they show in the sequel, certain things should have been addressed in this movie not two years later after it. Goyer doesn't get Superman and neither does Snyder who prior to getting the gig said he would never touch a Superman movie. Nolan was probably able to reign in certain things Goyer did but Snyder obviously doesn't have that sense and Goyer will bring him down even more than he is.

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:44 PM   #257
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

For me the problem isn't that Superman should never ever ever kill. It's just that when he does, at the climax of this film, my god is it depressing. And then swept under the rug. Like, what am I meant to take away from that? Superman has been my favourite superhero since I was a young kid. I cringe when I think about all the kids today, who are my age when I got into Superman, watching how this Superman beats Zod. What is the moral there? What does that teach them? Or us the audience? Zilch.

Zack's reasoning for writing it in there - that Superman needs a reason for having a strong 'no killing' rule, sort of suggests the Kent's failed massively in his upbringing. You have to kill someone before realising with your powers you shouldn't be killing? Okay. It's stuff like that which makes me realise all those Jonathan Kent speeches were great and all, but they had no importance or link to anything outside of those scenes. It's like they concentrated on each scene in isolation, and never stood back to see how this all fits together. Tonally it's all over the place.

I still like the movie, maybe I love it, I'll need to watch it at home to decide, but I don't think I'll ever like the way they chose to end the fight. And the more help Goyer and Zack get on the sequel, the better.

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Old 09-29-2013, 01:39 PM   #258
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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The Jesus allegory in this film is one of the shallowest I've seen anywhere. They took one of the most powerful stories in human history -- and I say this as an agnostic individual of Jewish background -- and turned it into a series of trivia. Clark being 33 years old, Clark seeking advice from a random churchman that has a painting of the Garden of Gethsemane, none of it is organic to the plot with the sole exception of the "virgin birth" which wasn't even developed at all. It's plastered on, like a series of easter eggs. The fact is Clark is 33 and not 23 doesn't change anything about the movie, so why is Goyer shouting "jesus! jesus!" at us, pulling us out of the film?
It's the unsubtlety of it that kills me. Superman's origin is already a basic Christ allegory which the average movie-goer is aware of. Why use it at all if it doesn't meaningfully further the story here? It's almost a drinking game, "let's spot the Jesus references."

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It's too bad, because to (briefly) go over the story of Jesus... wow. One day there was a somewhat charismatic man preaching a message of hope in a distant Roman province... and three hundred years later, his teachings became the official religion of the empire, and gave that part of the world the cohesiveness needed for the empire's descendants (western civilisation) to be so primary over the following 2000 years. This might be the greatest story ever. A lot this, all of this, is due to Jesus being in the right place at the right time, that he lived in a time and place of social despair, where people needed and wnated to hear his message. You can run a great allegory with that in a movie: see The Matrix, see The Hunger Games. If you try and take the man of Jesus, and the method of Jesus, and put him in a completely different time and place, it wouldn't work.

An example of how it could work, is if they played up the cynicism in the world, and they showed Superman gradually and slowly bringing hope to the world for a better way, not in a big party, but one miracle at a time, one disciple at a time. You can even make that the reason he emerges to the world, of his own will. Both The Matrix and The Hunger Games did this.
Doubt we'll be seeing a tent-pole movie of a deep(er) Superman-Jesus allegory anytime soon with the studio requisite to have Superman punch things.

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Goyer basically only focused on the New Testament, and ignored the actual historical context of Jesus, which is a lot more interesting and objectively a lot more powerful, since it's real. The latter is an intrinsically logical story since it actually happened (reforming the Roman empire), and it is an intrinsically powerful story, since it changed the world. It can be meaningful even to someone who has no ties to Christianity.
Could work as a smaller, more intimate movie, a big star's pet project, a Sundance entry perhaps.


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Old 09-29-2013, 01:43 PM   #259
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

I hope Goyer makes this more fun and less pretentious.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:24 PM   #260
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I'm gonna lay it out plain and simple about Supes killing Zod.

There was nothing wrong with him killing Zod nor the concept that it would be a catalyst for his reluctance to kill, even super villains.

HOWEVER, the fact that this wasn't brought up at any other point and the film, nor built up as a plot point of "How will I take down Zod without killing him" is what was wrong.
Take what you just said, apply it to ironman one...
I simply don't subscribe to the idea that the book of movie making, needs to be re-written simply for superman fans.

If only you spoke for all the fans. With the say waid and others talk I simply doubt the concept could have ever been pulled off in a way to that would be met with no controversy.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:33 PM   #261
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Kryptonians on Krypton are indistinguishable from human beings except for increased lung capacity. If you don't believe me, then download a stream of the movie and watch for yourself. Their language skills, intelligence, size, speed, caste system, etc are all the same.
You simply aren't using enough deductive reasoning here. For example you say the only evidence to distinguish them from us is jor el doing a bit of diving(I personally don't see that as evidence of anything to be honest).
However this would be like viewing a comic book panel of aquaman standing at the bottom of the ocean and inferring the only visible difference between him and us is the obvious, that he has gills of some form. Ignoring things like: what kind of bone skin density would be required for a man to stand at the bottom of the ocean given the atmospheric pressure... The minute jor mentions the huge gravity discrepancy from their world and ours...the minute you see someone like lois need a helmet in their atmosphere, deductive reasoning should tell you their physiology is a hell of a lot different than our own. The fact that Clark has a physiology that acts in such a way under a yellow star and ours does not…I digress

Onto the issue of increased mental capacity and the affinity to learn skills and trades at an advanced rate. The evidence provided is that JorEL is shown to be a remarkable and foremost scientist of an advanced world, whilst at the same time being a remarkable warrior capable of overcoming another foremost warrior. You yourself would put this above the realm of possibility for a "normal" person…By your own reasoning reasoning, please tell me how this isn’t evidence of an advanced human.

How many stories have you see where a prodigy of learning is born out of a simple increase of mental capacity or altered brain activity?
Here are a few:
-Powder
-FlowersforAlgernon
-Phenomenon
The idea that a designed kryptonian(not KalEl) could be such a prodigy is all but stated. This is an issue of mental prowess and the film has given plenty of internal evidence to that end.

For all your goings on about how Jor is the greatest mind in history(or something to that end), you’ve never thought to take a moment to ask yourself what the implications of such a thing would be. Just what can someone achieve with a better (designed)brain?

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Old 09-29-2013, 03:44 PM   #262
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

I finally got around to reading Mark Waid's review of Man of Steel, and I have to say, I agree with some of his points regarding the politics, narrative, and artistry of the film. The major point where I disagree with him on is the 'disaster porn' aspect of the film. First, massive destruction is part of superhero blockbuster films (see The Avengers or the Transformer films.) While I am not fond of it, I have to reiterate it is an inevitable part of the package. Having noted that, I disagreed with him slightly on the matter of the fight in Smallville: while watching the scene, I was reminded very much of a western. Think about it: the final showdown between the lawmen and the outlaws on the main street of a midwestern torn?

However, I do agree with his argument on Superman killing Zod. As I have noted before, David Goyer sees only way to handle super villains in his films: killing them, directly or indirectly.

It gets old, real fast.

While we can argue all day on which degree of murder Batman committed or which era of comics it evokes or the reality of a human vigilante fighting criminals, at the end of the day, said logic does not extend to Superman. It corrupts the character. Superman has the power to destroy the planet, but refuses to do so, let alone take a life. By making Superman a murderer, it takes away the appeal of the character: the control of the destructive power and impulses within him. Additionally, it renders his final scene with the military on unstable ground. He does not want to be a soldier for them, but he acts like one of cinema's super soldiers: he has the power to save and spare lives, but operates on the jackbooted mentality where killing is the only solution.

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:08 PM   #263
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

This thread feels like at times.

As for Superman killing.. there was no other way to stop THIS Zod. Unless you count gouging his eyes out and paralyzing him. In that case, I prefer the killing

I prefer the tidy PZ ending. The time the two spent fighting could allow for a scene fleshing out the characters of Perry or Lois.

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:23 PM   #264
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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This thread feels like at times.

As for Superman killing.. there was no other way to stop THIS Zod. Unless you count gouging his eyes out and paralyzing him. In that case, I prefer the killing

I prefer the tidy PZ ending. The time the two spent fighting could allow for a scene fleshing out the characters of Perry or Lois.
The only reason Zod "had" to be killed was because they wanted to kill him off. How would Superman handle a similar situation, but now with his "no kill" policy? What if Brainiac (the Coluan version, not STAS/Smallville) was on Earth, and trying to kill people?

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:38 PM   #265
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

^ The writer(s) then allow a way for Superman NOT to kill.
Which is kind of a lose-lose

If Superman never kills again, then his encounter with Zod is a freak situation he'll never be faced with again. Likewise, if he ends up killing anytime soon, the character isn't able to grow into the mostly nonlethal character we know and love. The shock of Superman killing is nonexistent now, and Superman finding a way to spare his foe makes the character come across as LESS mature, because he was able to stop his enemy once and for all earlier in the franchise.

Unless he had some ways to conveniently trap villains forever, which I hope will happen in upcoming films.

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:52 PM   #266
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Exactly. Man of Steel's "resolution" has the series trapped in a corner, either Superman becomes a bonafide killer, the writers have to spare characters and thus shows the writers wrote the scene to be "edgy", or worst of all David and Zach come up with a supreme deus ex machina which removes the whole grounded feel of the series, and turns it into a children's film series.

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Old 09-29-2013, 05:18 PM   #267
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
You simply aren't using enough deductive reasoning here. For example you say the only evidence to distinguish them from us is jor el doing a bit of diving(I personally don't see that as evidence of anything to be honest).
However this would be like viewing a comic book panel of aquaman standing at the bottom of the ocean and inferring the only visible difference between him and us is the obvious, that he has gills of some form. Ignoring things like: what kind of bone skin density would be required for a man to stand at the bottom of the ocean given the atmospheric pressure... The minute jor mentions the huge gravity discrepancy from their world and ours...the minute you see someone like lois need a helmet in their atmosphere, deductive reasoning should tell you their physiology is a hell of a lot different than our own. The fact that Clark has a physiology that acts in such a way under a yellow star and ours does not…I digress

Onto the issue of increased mental capacity and the affinity to learn skills and trades at an advanced rate. The evidence provided is that JorEL is shown to be a remarkable and foremost scientist of an advanced world, whilst at the same time being a remarkable warrior capable of overcoming another foremost warrior. You yourself would put this above the realm of possibility for a "normal" person…By your own reasoning reasoning, please tell me how this isn’t evidence of an advanced human.

How many stories have you see where a prodigy of learning is born out of a simple increase of mental capacity or altered brain activity?
Here are a few:
-Powder
-FlowersforAlgernon
-Phenomenon
The idea that a designed kryptonian(not KalEl) could be such a prodigy is all but stated. This is an issue of mental prowess and the film has given plenty of internal evidence to that end.

For all your goings on about how Jor is the greatest mind in history(or something to that end), you’ve never thought to take a moment to ask yourself what the implications of such a thing would be. Just what can someone achieve with a better (designed)brain?
Just want to pull you on something, what was your views of JorEl physically dominating several people who were meant to be superior to him in every way shape and form. Sure his mental capacity was greater as that was what he was designed for but how did someone who was created to be a thinker dominate someone who was meant to protect an entire planet through method of combat. To me that's just bad story telling and contradicts the point the film brought up about kryptonians and their society. There are so many holes and flaws in the movie that it almost seems like a joke.

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Old 09-29-2013, 05:25 PM   #268
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I finally got around to reading Mark Waid's review of Man of Steel, and I have to say, I agree with some of his points regarding the politics, narrative, and artistry of the film. The major point where I disagree with him on is the 'disaster porn' aspect of the film. First, massive destruction is part of superhero blockbuster films (see The Avengers or the Transformer films.) While I am not fond of it, I have to reiterate it is an inevitable part of the package. Having noted that, I disagreed with him slightly on the matter of the fight in Smallville: while watching the scene, I was reminded very much of a western. Think about it: the final showdown between the lawmen and the outlaws on the main street of a midwestern torn?

However, I do agree with his argument on Superman killing Zod. As I have noted before, David Goyer sees only way to handle super villains in his films: killing them, directly or indirectly.

It gets old, real fast.

While we can argue all day on which degree of murder Batman committed or which era of comics it evokes or the reality of a human vigilante fighting criminals, at the end of the day, said logic does not extend to Superman. It corrupts the character. Superman has the power to destroy the planet, but refuses to do so, let alone take a life. By making Superman a murderer, it takes away the appeal of the character: the control of the destructive power and impulses within him. Additionally, it renders his final scene with the military on unstable ground. He does not want to be a soldier for them, but he acts like one of cinema's super soldiers: he has the power to save and spare lives, but operates on the jackbooted mentality where killing is the only solution.
My main problem with the destruction was that it wasn't addressed ever and Superman was just very reckless and irresponsible, Superman stops Faora from taking down the military jet and they crash into a diner full of locals. Now Clark can see there are people in there that can die from two Super beings going at it, what does he do? He attacks Faora in the diner and the fight is only relocated once the villain throws him to an isolated location. Hate Smallville all you want but as stupid as that Clark was when **** was about to go down he always moved the fight to a place no one was around. This Superman just went in for it like nobody business.

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Old 09-29-2013, 05:29 PM   #269
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Exactly. Man of Steel's "resolution" has the series trapped in a corner, either Superman becomes a bonafide killer, the writers have to spare characters and thus shows the writers wrote the scene to be "edgy", or worst of all David and Zach come up with a supreme deus ex machina which removes the whole grounded feel of the series, and turns it into a children's film series.
Something as controversial as Superman killing should have come in later films, once the character had been established and the audience resonated with him emotionally and his values. Also the way it was written cheapens the scene, a good writer would have wrote Superman into a corner where he had no choice but to kill. There are a number of ways this extreme could have been avoided.

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Old 09-29-2013, 05:29 PM   #270
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Exactly. Man of Steel's "resolution" has the series trapped in a corner, either Superman becomes a bonafide killer, the writers have to spare characters and thus shows the writers wrote the scene to be "edgy", or worst of all David and Zach come up with a supreme deus ex machina which removes the whole grounded feel of the series, and turns it into a children's film series.
I am OKAY with option B. As in, really OKAY with option B. I do want ONE 'grounded' sequel, but a fantastical semi-family friendly series for Superman?

That's not so bad

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Old 09-29-2013, 05:33 PM   #271
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Option B as in admitting they were wrong about killing Zod, and thus undermining it's ending? Because you highlighted the third option.

Oh, and by grounded, what I mean is things like peoples actions having consequences, like how the events of Thor led to SHIELD using the Tesseract to make weapons in Avengers. Not the overly-used buzz word that means "Nolan imitation".

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Old 09-29-2013, 05:36 PM   #272
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I'd rather Goyer and Snyder say "We should have found a different way to kill off Zod." It'd be very refreshing

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Old 09-29-2013, 08:31 PM   #273
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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You simply aren't using enough deductive reasoning here. For example you say the only evidence to distinguish them from us is jor el doing a bit of diving(I personally don't see that as evidence of anything to be honest).
I don't think a human being could have pulled that off, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Anyway, it's not really important as we were primarily discussing neurological rather than physical differences.

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However this would be like viewing a comic book panel of aquaman standing at the bottom of the ocean and inferring the only visible difference between him and us is the obvious, that he has gills of some form. Ignoring things like: what kind of bone skin density would be required for a man to stand at the bottom of the ocean given the atmospheric pressure... The minute jor mentions the huge gravity discrepancy from their world and ours...
That's another example of Goyer's shallowness: The "huge gravity discrepancy". That's total BS. Krypton is a world that would have similar gravity to Earth's, it's a rocky planet with a very thin atmosphere, it's known that these kinds of planets have surface gravities like Earth... the discrepancy is not going to be "huge" unless by "huge" they mean ~25%. Further, the world they designed doesn't look like it has a huge gravity discrepancy. On a planet with bigger gravity, that dragon that Jor-El flew would need to have much wider wings. Basically, they tell us it's a world with a huge gravity, but if anything it looks like a world with weaker gravity.

But again, as before, this is "realism" where they did not hire too many competent science consultants. It would have taken five minutes with any astrophysicist who is so much as a third-year graduate student to tell them the gravity thing doesn't work and doesn't make sense and that they should drop it. That graduate student could have also told them that Earth's sun being "younger and brighter" is nonsense, that you cannot blow up a planet with mining, and that if the military sets up black hole in Earth's atmosphere over Metropolis that is strong enough to suck in all the Kryptonians, then they should have a scene explaining how the black hole went away.

It's kind of like a bunch of people in Kansas seeking shelter from a tornado by hiding under an underpass:
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/ddc/?n=over
Once more, they didn't speak to a science consultant. Did they deliberately show people of Smallville being dumb, or were the creators themselves dumb? I'm going with the latter. That mistake happened in 1991 (in Kansas), I doubt it would happen again, certainly not with that many people around. Certainly after that tragedy everybody in Kansas would be taught not to hide under an underpass during a tornado.

As far as world-building and physics is concerned, the realism in this movie gets a grade of F. Your deep search for consequences is futile, as the foundations are internally inconsistent.

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the minute you see someone like lois need a helmet in their atmosphere, deductive reasoning should tell you their physiology is a hell of a lot different than our own. The fact that Clark has a physiology that acts in such a way under a yellow star and ours does not…I digress
The atmosphere was made as a plot device so that Clark wouldn't have superpowers on the ship. It's a perturbation that has no other repercussions. You can think things more deeply than Goyer did, and you are thinking things more deeply than Goyer did, but that doesn't necessarily lead to relevant conclusions.

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Onto the issue of increased mental capacity and the affinity to learn skills and trades at an advanced rate. The evidence provided is that JorEL is shown to be a remarkable and foremost scientist of an advanced world, whilst at the same time being a remarkable warrior capable of overcoming another foremost warrior. You yourself would put this above the realm of possibility for a "normal" person…By your own reasoning reasoning, please tell me how this isn’t evidence of an advanced human.
The problem is that you're putting more thought into the script and the world-building then David Goyer ever did. You're trying to apply real-world logic, when it's Goyer-world logic that in fact matters. He's an extremely shallow mind (notice he makes the same mistakes over and over again), and his only good movies are when he's effectively rescued by someone known to be great (Nolan, Del Toro). Both Nolan and Del Toro have achieved greater without

Within Goyer-world logic, the reason Jor-El can beat up Zod is simply because Jor-El is the ultimate badass. He is Richard Riddick, Tony Stark, Khan Noonien-Singh, and Batman all rolled into one. Alternatively, he is George St-Pierre, Karl Marx, Usain Bolt, and Freeman Dyson all rolled into one. That's all there is to it. It's the infantile construction of the ultimate badass.

If you ever take a course in college called "Multivariable Calculus" you'll learn about something called "multivariable optimization". You will learn that when you have many variables, it is usually impossible to optimize all of them simultaneously. If you have a good professor, you will be shown real world examples of why this makes sense. You will the understand why somebody who is jointly optimized to be both a scientist and a warrior should not easily beat up one who is optimized to simply be a warrior.

I worked on a telescope design once, back in 2006. My boss wanted me to try and modify the telescope design so that it would have a lower total mass (reducing construction cost), have more stability, and take better pictures. Unfortunately, all three of these cannot be simultaneously optimized. "Lower total mass" on its own, plugged into a computer program, makes the telescope disappear (think about it), at which point you're not taking any pictures. "More stability" on its own, makes the telescope more and more massive, it just keeps going. The lesson is, for any complex system, there will be tradeoffs. We switched the design criteria to lower total mass at fixed minimal stability. That logic will apply as much to simple bacteria, as to humans, as to any other alien life. However, that's the logic of the real world... and David S. Goyer is simply not that sharp.

It's interesting you bring up the masterpiece Flowers for Algernon. Pay attention next time you read it. We're not just told by the narrator that the Charlie Gordon has an increasing IQ: everything about him changes. His vocabulary changes, his sentence structure, the way he views the world, the way he relates to people, everything. A complete picture is shown, not a superficial one.

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For all your goings on about how Jor is the greatest mind in history(or something to that end), you’ve never thought to take a moment to ask yourself what the implications of such a thing would be. Just what can someone achieve with a better (designed)brain?
Actually I've put tremendous thought into this, which is why I can confidently say that Goyer's world building is crap.


Last edited by DA_Champion; 09-29-2013 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:36 PM   #274
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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My main problem with the destruction was that it wasn't addressed ever and Superman was just very reckless and irresponsible, Superman stops Faora from taking down the military jet and they crash into a diner full of locals. Now Clark can see there are people in there that can die from two Super beings going at it, what does he do? He attacks Faora in the diner and the fight is only relocated once the villain throws him to an isolated location. Hate Smallville all you want but as stupid as that Clark was when **** was about to go down he always moved the fight to a place no one was around. This Superman just went in for it like nobody business.
That clark also used his powers to show off a crap ton, leading to injuries and other messes... He also put on red kryptonite rings as a conflict resolution..kinda strange.
I see no gain in comparing this film to that show.

Your point does beg the question of how many kryptonian invasion fleet caliber opponets Clark faced in a populated area on that show but more to the point, how realistic was that show in execution. The super speed alone is a can of worms.

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Old 09-29-2013, 08:39 PM   #275
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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^ The writer(s) then allow a way for Superman NOT to kill.
Which is kind of a lose-lose

If Superman never kills again, then his encounter with Zod is a freak situation he'll never be faced with again. Likewise, if he ends up killing anytime soon, the character isn't able to grow into the mostly nonlethal character we know and love. The shock of Superman killing is nonexistent now, and Superman finding a way to spare his foe makes the character come across as LESS mature, because he was able to stop his enemy once and for all earlier in the franchise.

Unless he had some ways to conveniently trap villains forever, which I hope will happen in upcoming films.
That's true, if this is the origin of the no-kill rule, then that means they're always going to have to invent BS plot devices to prevent killing. It's extremely silly.

This is aside from the fact that "origin of the no kill rule" is not the reason they killed Zod. They were honest about it, the reason they killed Zod is that Snyder felt the original ending lacked closure. So, they added a scene where the fortress of solitude is destroyed, where Superman heat-rays a lot of Kryptonian embryos to death, and where he murders Zod to make the ending more satisfying. "Origin of the no-kill rule" is merely padding.

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