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Old 10-08-2013, 02:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: Batman hits women?

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Originally Posted by Oswald View Post
But Batman hates the criminals, although he doesn't kill them. The violence he uses against them proves he hates them as hell, but he has a huge auto-control (unlike Punisher or Red Hood, for example). Look at the sentence in the first pannel of this page from Cacophony:

Violence against his villains does not prove that Batman "hates them" one single bit. Police often use violence to subdue a violent offender - now that doesn't mean (or prove) that the police hate that person. I think you're confusing Batman's driving sense of vengeance and justice with hate.

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Old 10-09-2013, 04:07 AM   #27
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Violence against his villains does not prove that Batman "hates them" one single bit. Police often use violence to subdue a violent offender - now that doesn't mean (or prove) that the police hate that person. I think you're confusing Batman's driving sense of vengeance and justice with hate.

Mmm, a guy whose hobby is dressing like a bat to catch criminals and you think he doesn't hate them? He makes it for vengeance and justice but he doesn't hate them? Really?

First the vengeance and the justice have nothing to see each other. Then, if Bruce Wayne wanted justice he would be interested for the fate of the criminals he catches, and perhaps he would finish like Two Face. If he wanted vengeance he would kill the criminals and he would be like Azrael or Red Hood. He doesn't do one thing nor the other, so he isn't looking for vengeance or justice. In my opinion he just wants to relieve the anxiety for their parents's murder by attacking criminals, nothing more, so he is another madman, a sanctimonious one, but madman anyway.

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Old 10-09-2013, 04:51 AM   #28
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Wink Re: Batman hits women?

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Mmm, a guy whose hobby is dressing like a bat to catch criminals and you think he doesn't hate them? He makes it for vengeance and justice but he doesn't hate them? Really?

First the vengeance and the justice have nothing to see each other. Then, if Bruce Wayne wanted justice he would be interested for the fate of the criminals he catches, and perhaps he would finish like Two Face. If he wanted vengeance he would kill the criminals and he would be like Azrael or Red Hood. He doesn't do one thing nor the other, so he isn't looking for vengeance or justice. In my opinion he just wants to relieve the anxiety for their parents's murder by attacking criminals, nothing more, so he is another madman, a sanctimonious one, but madman anyway.
You're looking at it from a very narrow point of view, like a horse with blinders on. No, I don't think Batman hates criminals. Wanna know why? Because he doesn't kill them.

Hate is a strong word that gets tossed around easily these days. Hate is the penultimate feeling that leads an individual to cross that line and go right over the edge and take someone's life. Batman doesn't do this. Hell, he has more reasons to kill the Joker than any other character in his life... and yet he still doesn't. He's driven by vengeance, yes, but he's also clinging to a sense of morality. Punish the wicked, protect the innocent - that's his motto, right?

And you shouldn't mince words... I didn't say justice and vengeance were synonymous. The former is always right, and the latter can be right depending on your point of view. Both of these desires drive Batman... not hate. If you choose not to see that, then I'm afraid your understanding of the character at the present time has become muddled. Perhaps that came from some premonition you had and have convinced yourself of, or perhaps it's based on something you read which you thought was smart and decided to agree with. God knows.

In any sense... try to understand Batman's loss. The loss of a parent (let alone both of them) is traumatic, and can last with someone through their life. I lost my father six years ago... and it leaves a hole in you that can never be filled. At least that's my experience. Batman has chosen his path to keep that pain (if he can prevent it) from happening to others. This is what moves him to do what he does, not necessarily a simple "relief for anxiety" as you put it. A relief from that anxiety rarely if ever comes. All Batman can do is use the life he was given to spare others that horror.

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Old 10-09-2013, 06:02 AM   #29
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You're looking at it from a very narrow point of view, like a horse with blinders on. No, I don't think Batman hates criminals. Wanna know why? Because he doesn't kill them.

Hate is a strong word that gets tossed around easily these days. Hate is the penultimate feeling that leads an individual to cross that line and go right over the edge and take someone's life. Batman doesn't do this. Hell, he has more reasons to kill the Joker than any other character in his life... and yet he still doesn't. He's driven by vengeance, yes, but he's also clinging to a sense of morality. Punish the wicked, protect the innocent - that's his motto, right?

And you shouldn't mince words... I didn't say justice and vengeance were synonymous. The former is always right, and the latter can be right depending on your point of view. Both of these desires drive Batman... not hate. If you choose not to see that, then I'm afraid your understanding of the character at the present time has become muddled. Perhaps that came from some premonition you had and have convinced yourself of, or perhaps it's based on something you read which you thought was smart and decided to agree with. God knows.

In any sense... try to understand Batman's loss. The loss of a parent (let alone both of them) is traumatic, and can last with someone through their life. I lost my father six years ago... and it leaves a hole in you that can never be filled. At least that's my experience. Batman has chosen his path to keep that pain (if he can prevent it) from happening to others. This is what moves him to do what he does, not necessarily a simple "relief for anxiety" as you put it. A relief from that anxiety rarely if ever comes. All Batman can do is use the life he was given to spare others that horror.
Do you know what is revenge, and what it implies? The purpose of revenge is to release the tension that pain have generated in the victim of an affront, so it does implies a certain amount of wrath and hate (justified, on the other hand).

And I'm not sure Batman wants to avoid his tragedy happens again, he can say that but his actions don't coincide: if he really wanted the innocents don't suffer he would kill the Joker and Zsasz, but he doesn't, he leaves them alive when there isn't any reason they stop killing. In the case of the Joker he has also saved him many times from death (in the film The Dark Knight, in Cacophony and Under the Hood, and sure there are more cases I don't remember now), and the excuses he gives aren't valid for me: ok he doesn't kill him (although it's also irrational) but why he doesn't leave him die? This fact proves that people aren't his priority, that he's selfish and thinks first in him and in how satisfy his psychosis, not in how protect the innocents.


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Old 10-09-2013, 02:47 PM   #30
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^I'm not an expert... but I have a loose idea of what vengeance is... so I'd say you're incorrect.

Vengeance is not synonymous with hate. It's more about retribution. Vengeance doesn't require hate. It requires a need or desire to see justice done through excessive force, or in many cases, an act committed outside the legality of the law. Payback is another good word for it. It has little to do with "releasing tension caused by pain" in my opinion. Wrath can also be righteous, whereas hate is not.

I think you're getting a lot of terms and definitions a bit mixed up in your head my friend. You ignored most of what I said, and responded in kind to only what suited your own theories. I put a lot of effort into responding to you and brought up some valid (if not insightful points). I suggest you take that in instead of posing behind a broad question about whether or not I understand vengeance. I have a feeling you understand it less so than I do, otherwise you wouldn't have started the topic.

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Old 10-10-2013, 04:20 AM   #31
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^I'm not an expert... but I have a loose idea of what vengeance is... so I'd say you're incorrect.

Vengeance is not synonymous with hate. It's more about retribution. Vengeance doesn't require hate. It requires a need or desire to see justice done through excessive force, or in many cases, an act committed outside the legality of the law. Payback is another good word for it. It has little to do with "releasing tension caused by pain" in my opinion. Wrath can also be righteous, whereas hate is not.

I think you're getting a lot of terms and definitions a bit mixed up in your head my friend. You ignored most of what I said, and responded in kind to only what suited your own theories. I put a lot of effort into responding to you and brought up some valid (if not insightful points). I suggest you take that in instead of posing behind a broad question about whether or not I understand vengeance. I have a feeling you understand it less so than I do, otherwise you wouldn't have started the topic.
Ok, let's put some objetivity here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatred
"Hatred (or hate) is a deep and emotional extreme dislike that can be directed against individuals, entities, objects, or ideas. Hatred is often associated with feelings of anger and a disposition towards hostility"

Doesn't the crusade of Bruce Wayne match with this definition? I think it perfectly does, the hate doesn't necessary entail kill the object of the aversion, this emotion also moves to avoid, restrict or hurt (not necessary killing) it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge
"Revenge is a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived. It is also called payback, retribution, retaliation or vengeance; it may be characterized as a form of justice, an altruistic action which enforces societal or moral justice aside from the legal system. Francis Bacon described it as a kind of wild justice"

Ok, so you maintain Bruce does a kind of "natural justice", don't? He punishes the criminals with the fear that Batman's figure produces, in retribution of his parents's murder. Ok, I agree with that, but it doesn't change he hates them, that's just the way he has choosen to express that hatred. Also if he really wanted justice/retribution he would've killed Joe Chill (he deserved it cause he killed his parents), but he didn't. Instead he dresses like a bat and terrorises the criminal underworld, and that makes me conclude the retribution isn't his real goal, because the Batman's figure just works with those criminals which are afraid of it, but what happens with the rest? Nothing, he makes nothing but putting them in prison or in Arkham (where they finally always run away), and that's the reason why I think he's another madman, one oriented to the Order instead of to the chaos, but madman after all.

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Old 10-10-2013, 02:48 PM   #32
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I like to call him dressing up as Batman "preventative maintenance"... it's the fear that keeps half of them in Gotham from flubbing up... fear that Batman might catch them. Right?

As far as your whole theory about Batman "hating" criminals... that's all fine and dandy to post a wikipedia definition, but it's not the 100% be-all end-all of every occurring instance of hatred. You've still yet to prove that Batman hates criminals and his villains. My only real proof for saying he doesn't is that he doesn't kill. I don't believe true hatred (if it is indeed hatred) can be defined by Batman arresting his adversary and throwing them in jail, repeatedly, time after time. And if it is hatred that drives this, it's overruled by his sense of justice.

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Old 10-10-2013, 04:38 PM   #33
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Interesting point.

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Old 10-10-2013, 05:49 PM   #34
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I don't think batman Hates the criminals themselves, but he hates what they do. He of course harbors no false notions that they are all misunderstood people who were abused as children, and should be coddled, he fully believes the crooks have made a choice and deserve what ever punishment they get, but he doesn't hate them.

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Old 10-10-2013, 06:07 PM   #35
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I find something odd about using a Batman source that Kevin Smith wrote.

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Old 10-10-2013, 07:58 PM   #36
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How did this go from Batman hitting wimmin to Batman hating on criminals?

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Old 10-10-2013, 08:29 PM   #37
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Cuz this guys entire POV is based on a blatantly incorrect statement?

I was gonna point it out, but then I started watching porn and, well, lost interest.

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Old 10-11-2013, 04:08 AM   #38
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Cuz this guys entire POV is based on a blatantly incorrect statement?
Which incorrect statement?

If you prefer a source which proves Batman hates criminals less polemic than the Cacophony's page I put before, here's the moment in Hush where Bruce almost kills the Joker and thinks in the most painful way to do it:




I don't think what stops Batman killing their enemies is sense of justice, I think he's afraid of taking a life due to his original trauma; his parents's death left in him such an impact than he doesn't wanna commit a murder, even if the victim deserves it. He's like an angry kid, and he feels the hatred typical of an immature boy. If he overcomes his trauma he would become something like the Punisher. He has the wrath and the determination, he's just limited by his infantile traumas (the rejection of murder, the obsession with the bats of the cave and the terror they made him feel, etc), and that is the reason he's such an interesting character.


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Old 10-11-2013, 08:39 AM   #39
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Another example where Batman says that, at least, he hates the Joker and would like to kill him (I can't find the page of the comic Under the Hood in internet, so I put the scene of the animated adaptation):

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Old 10-11-2013, 01:26 PM   #40
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But he doesn't hate ALL criminals. He hates SOME criminals. But for the most part he hates crime. He's not gonna put a 7 year old in traction cuz he caught him stealing gum at the local Bodega. I mean, that's just nuts.

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Old 10-11-2013, 09:23 PM   #41
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Interesting point.
Thanks. The other guy still isn't proving his point.

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Old 10-12-2013, 03:57 AM   #42
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But he doesn't hate ALL criminals. He hates SOME criminals. But for the most part he hates crime. He's not gonna put a 7 year old in traction cuz he caught him stealing gum at the local Bodega. I mean, that's just nuts.
He doesn't hate crime, he hates murder and the murderers, it doesn't matter which are their motives. He has a trauma and he has to calm it, he doesn't wanna change anything or avoid the villains continue killing, in fact it's better for him they continue killing (perhaps that's the message the Joker wanted to tell him in the Death of the family's arc, but as it's a commercial rubbish written with the ass it ends completely diluted).

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Old 10-12-2013, 05:48 AM   #43
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As to the original post question: of course he hits women, he's not sexist.

To the question of whether he hates criminals, its selective. I'd say Batman hates his flat out evil villains like the Joker or Zsasz, but he definitely doesn't hate Harvey Dent or the Ventriloquist, as they are far more sympathetic characters. An example:


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Old 10-12-2013, 07:05 AM   #44
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As to the original post question: of course he hits women, he's not sexist.

To the question of whether he hates criminals, its selective. I'd say Batman hates his flat out evil villains like the Joker or Zsasz, but he definitely doesn't hate Harvey Dent or the Ventriloquist, as they are far more sympathetic characters. An example:

I can't see the image!

My doubt about the women is because the original trauma of Bruce is with a murderer man (Joe Chill), and his mother was a victim, so in his infantil mind women are victims, not executioners. It doesn't fit with his (deranged) vision of reality that women kill innocents, and I've never seen a comic (I mean a serious comic, not campy/pulp) where he expresses against a murderer woman the same wrath he feels against the murderer men (it's also true there aren't a lot of female villains).

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Old 10-12-2013, 05:59 PM   #45
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So, he just doesn't hate women as much? Not even Talia who killed his son?

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Old 10-12-2013, 10:33 PM   #46
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Does anybody use spoiler tags anymore? Somebody had a sig mentioning the death of a certain character (from the batman comics), which I haven't caught up on. And now I know that certain character was killed and who did it.

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Old 10-12-2013, 11:19 PM   #47
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Ah, but did she do the actual deed?

Also, if it's more than a month that's really a YOU problem.

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Old 10-17-2013, 02:19 PM   #48
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I don't really understand why hating someone by default means you want them dead. Hate is why he beats them to a pulp in the first place. You don't beat someone to within an inch of their life if you don't hate them. Even if you don't kill them.

And I'm a woman, and I'm fine with Batman hitting women if they deserve it. But yeah, the taboo against hitting women means he doesn't go that far. Besides the fact that we require less force to take down and injure anyway....

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Old 10-17-2013, 02:36 PM   #49
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He doesn't even beat them to within an inch of their lives either. At least not often. Batman is a Superhero. He fights crime. All this psychological mumbojumbo where he's some broken little rich boy beating the s**t outta criminals cuz he hates them is for the most part, boos**t. Batman has never been a sadist. He'll knock a guy or girl around to subdue them, but rarely more than that. And unlike the movies, he saves his bad guys if they need it. How many times has Joker fallen off a building only for Bats to catch him? Even though the world would be a much better place if he just let that crazy bastard fall? Hate? Maybe for some. Usually tempered by compassion. Cuz Batman's too awesome to let such an emotion be a driving force. At least that's the Batman I know, I don't know what you mofo's been reading.

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Old 10-17-2013, 02:42 PM   #50
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He doesn't even beat them to within an inch of their lives either. At least not often. Batman is a Superhero. He fights crime. All this psychological mumbojumbo where he's some broken little rich boy beating the s**t outta criminals cuz he hates them is for the most part, boos**t. Batman has never been a sadist. He'll knock a guy or girl around to subdue them, but rarely more than that. And unlike the movies, he saves his bad guys if they need it. How many times has Joker fallen off a building only for Bats to catch him? Even though the world would be a much better place if he just let that crazy bastard fall? Hate? Maybe for some. Usually tempered by compassion. Cuz Batman's too awesome to let such an emotion be a driving force. At least that's the Batman I know, I don't know what you mofo's been reading.
Well if he did that all the time, of course it would be anticlimactic. Even in the interpretations where he's angriest or the most messed up, they need to save it because it simply gets tiring to see.

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