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Old 10-11-2013, 11:59 PM   #901
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Yep. The moment where she drew attention to Rachel's picture in Wayne Manor while seducing Bruce is what really spelled it out for me. She really was pure femme fatale. What's interesting is I've heard some arguments that Rachel was a femme fatale in her own way too.
If anything, I think Rachel was inadvertently so. She tried being honest with Bruce, but he simply refused to see the truth in front of him.

In TDKR, it seems that Selina is supposed to be the femme fatale, but that role is really Tatelia's. Yes, Selina is mysterious and sensual, and uses her feminine wiles to trick men, but she was always more or less honest with Bruce. Aside from locking him in with Bane, of course. (Although I'm not sure what else he expected, since she did do what he asked of her, no more and no less. Did he really think she would help him fight Bane? )

Tatelia seems on the outside to be pure of heart like Rachel was, but showed her true femme fatale-ness at the end. That trickery makes her the ultimate femme fatale, I suppose.

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Old 10-12-2013, 12:02 AM   #902
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He probably expected Selina to not lock him in with Bane.

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Old 10-12-2013, 12:20 AM   #903
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He probably expected Selina to not lock him in with Bane.
Yeah, but the fight still would have happened. And I don't think Bruce would have tried to escape anyway, gate or no gate.

it would have made it harder for him to leave if he'd been victorious, but being locked in anywhere has never stopped Batman.

I actually wonder now, if "You've made a serious mistake" was in regards to her believing that she could save herself when dealing with Bane. And she interpreted it as "I shouldn't have led him to Bane" (like the audience surely did) instead of "I shouldn't have thought I could negotiate with Bane." Although we do see her trying to flee immediately after, so maybe she got his point too.

I mean, Bruce really did have a death wish at that point, and expected only one of them to walk out of that fight. If Selina hadn't led him to Bane, he would have found another way. She just happened to be the most convenient avenue. Perhaps that's why he isn't all that angry with her when they meet again.

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Old 10-12-2013, 12:46 AM   #904
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I think she already had a soft spot for him when she broke into his safe.

She's a professional thief. Why did she stick around to get caught, looking at his old photos? She could have jumped out his window a minute before and he would have been none the wiser.

The fact is, he intrigued her - despite what his public image was, clearly he was not her usual mark. So she stayed a bit to try and figure him out.

Note that he did the same after she toyed with him and jumped out of his window. It's not everyday that Bruce meets someone (let alone an attractive woman!) with similar skills and who enjoyed using those skills as much as he did.

I also find it interesting that Selina admits to being the thief as soon as Bruce accuses her. She could have pulled the helpless maid act longer as she skittered around him and escaped (clearly he couldn't run after her on that cane), but she acknowledged that he was her match, being as intelligent as she was. Again, not her usual mark. I don't see her admitting to ruses that often when she's caught in one.

Although I believe that Bruce "chasing" her for the first half of the film was him trying to mentor her. Leading her onto the right path, because he felt that her abilities were being used in ways harmful to herself and others. And of course she didn't come looking for him because in her eyes, she is Miss Independent and don't need no help from no man!

But she has a crush on the Batman (who wouldn't, honestly?) and that carried over when she found out who he really was. But even before then, I maintain that he intrigued her. Even if she was in denial about it.

It's only after Bruce resolves to take the bomb over the bay (well, and Tatelia reveals herself as a murdering psychopath), that he realizes he and Selina had the same life goals all along - to be free of their pasts. And why not spend it with someone who's basically your counterpart?
We're on the same page. I always loved that quick flash of emotional vulnerability on her face when he first re-appeared in Gotham (before she reverted to her nonchalant one) after escaping the pit. And it also cracks me up how she had that look and Bruce is just all (ok, maybe more like just a ).


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I actually wonder now, if "You've made a serious mistake" was in regards to her believing that she could save herself when dealing with Bane.
I've always interpreted it as him warning her that she shouldn't have trusted Bane with whatever deal they worked out (in exchange for Batman).

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Old 10-12-2013, 12:47 AM   #905
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Yep. The moment where she drew attention to Rachel's picture in Wayne Manor while seducing Bruce is what really spelled it out for me. She really was pure femme fatale.
I don't think it was a coincidence too that she dresses (and styles) just like Rachel. Heck, she most likely researched on Rachel so she can make sure that she hits that special Rachel nerve on Bruce.

I do love me some parallels... Gotta love how they did similar actions but with totally different motivations:




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Old 10-12-2013, 01:06 AM   #906
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We're on the same page. I always loved that quick flash of emotional vulnerability on her face when he first re-appeared in Gotham (before she reverted to her nonchalant one) after escaping the pit. And it also cracks me up how she had that look and Bruce is just all (ok, maybe more like just a ).
He's probably thinking, "Aww, isn't that cute, she has a heart after all!"

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I've always interpreted it as him warning her that she shouldn't have trusted Bane with whatever deal they worked out (in exchange for Batman).
Well, it seems that most of the folks here seem to have interpreted it the other way.

Selina at least partially interpreted it like she shouldn't have led him to Bane, the way that she cracked when Blake asked her about Bruce. I mean, she didn't know how much Bruce was resolved to fight Bane in the first place. She even half-offered to apologize to him, which wouldn't have occurred to her at all if she hadn't felt guilty.

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I don't think it was a coincidence too that she dresses (and styles) just like Rachel. Heck, she most likely researched on Rachel so she can make sure that she hits that special Rachel nerve on Bruce.

I do love me some parallels... Gotta love how they did similar actions but with totally different motivations:

They probably did, the that they are.

Also, if Bruce had said yes to Tatelia's offer of a flight outta there, I expect his face would have met with a chloroform-soaked towel in short order, so the result would have been the same no matter what.

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Old 10-17-2013, 04:49 PM   #907
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What evidence have you heard supporting the idea that Rachel was a femme fatale? Would you say Bruce's attraction to her was rooted in her being the last link left to his childhood, or perhaps her being his friend at a traumatic point in his life?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but IMO, the main thing that kept Bruce and Rachel from being together was his growing obsession with Batman. Other than that, there really isn't anything on a script/story level that suggests that Bruce and Rachel were incompatible.

I dislike Rachel and felt Bale had little chemistry with both her actresses. But I do think that Rachel is intended to be the love of Nolan Bruce's life. IMO, Him moving on with Selina is similar to a widow being remarried

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Old 10-17-2013, 04:58 PM   #908
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I don't see it that way. Selina is who he's destined to move on with. Forever? Who knows. But Rachel couldn't accept Bruce's alter ego. She shouldn't accept every aspect of him and that's why it was never destined to happen. Which is why he doesn't move on with her in the end, because it simply wasn't meant to be.

Selina accepts every part of Bruce because she can relate to a lot of it. Rachel was just a very different person.

They were never lovers. Even the way it was written, it always seemed like they were just really great friends and Bruce loved her but I think he was mistaken in thinking it was more than just friendship. All because Bruce connects Rachel to his past, his childhood, his parents, Gotham, etc. That's part of the reason why he couldn't get past Rachel. It's not even really her, it's what she represents. Just like his parents for Batman. With Selina, she doesn't really have ties to Gotham, his parents, Alfred, Wayne Manor, all of that stuff.

Id say he looked at Rachel and im not sure if he saw the woman in front of him but only what she symbolizes. With Selina he actually is only looking at the person in front of him. In this universe Bruce and Selina is the real couple. Harvey just saw Rachel for who she was especially in that moment in time. It's like Bruce refuses to think she's changed because he's constantly thinking of the Rachel that was playing with him when they were 9. That's not how **** works! And that's ALL because Bruce didn't get a chance to grow up properly and learn simple lessons. He's always that child either the night his parents died or wishing it was before that night.

Rachel evolved and Bruce never did and that's why Harvey was her best partner. As is Selina for Bruce.


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Old 10-17-2013, 05:05 PM   #909
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I know this wasn't directed at me, but IMO, the main thing that kept Bruce and Rachel from being together was his growing obsession with Batman. Other than that, there really isn't anything on a script/story level that suggests that Bruce and Rachel were incompatible.

I dislike Rachel and felt Bale had little chemistry with both her actresses. But I do think that Rachel is intended to be the love of Nolan Bruce's life. IMO, Him moving on with Selina is similar to a widow being remarried
Yeah um, that's all Bruce is, really. That and he was a thrillseeker and loved fast cars and gadgets (likely even without Batman in the picture), and she looked down on that too.

And Rachel lectured him, constantly disapproving what he was doing instead of letting him be what he was. I'm sorry, but that's not a healthy relationship. Yes, your partner should call you out on your BS if warranted, but they shouldn't want you to be a different person entirely.

Selina implored with him to see her side, but she was finally of the "if you can't beat them, join them" mindset in the end. And now that they're together, I think she'll use her own abilities to make sure Bruce doesn't get too far into the deep end. Alfred couldn't physically make sure Bruce is safe, but Selina can. And Bruce won't make her be someone else, but he can certainly use his charm to convince her.

That's why I felt she was a far better match for Bruce than Rachel was. Incidentally, my relationship with my husband is more akin to Selina and Bruce's despite the fact that we are far more boring.

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Old 10-17-2013, 05:10 PM   #910
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Yeah um, that's all Bruce is, really. That and he was a thrillseeker and loved fast cars and gadgets (likely even without Batman in the picture), and she looked down on that too.

And Rachel lectured him, constantly disapproving what he was doing instead of letting him be what he was. I'm sorry, but that's not a healthy relationship. Yes, your partner should call you out on your BS if warranted, but they shouldn't want you to be a different person entirely.

Selina implored with him to see her side, but she was finally of the "if you can't beat them, join them" mindset in the end. And now that they're together, I think she'll use her own abilities to make sure Bruce doesn't get too far into the deep end. Alfred couldn't physically make sure Bruce is safe, but Selina can. And Bruce won't make her be someone else, but he can certainly use his charm to convince her.

That's why I felt she was a far better match for Bruce than Rachel was. Incidentally, my relationship with my husband is more akin to Selina and Bruce's despite the fact that we are far more boring.

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Old 10-17-2013, 05:28 PM   #911
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Id say he looked at Rachel and im not sure if he saw the woman in front of him but only what she symbolizes.
Yeah, I think Bruce is just in love with the idea of loving someone like Rachel. She represents the life he could've had if his parents didn't die. I like your assessment too that Harvey saw Rachel for what she really is.

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Old 10-17-2013, 07:51 PM   #912
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Yeah um, that's all Bruce is, really. That and he was a thrillseeker and loved fast cars and gadgets (likely even without Batman in the picture), and she looked down on that too.
I'm assuming you're referring to the Hotel scene in Batman Begins, where Rachel is only upset that Bruce is seemingly doing shallow things while Gotham needs to be fixed.

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And Rachel lectured him, constantly disapproving what he was doing instead of letting him be what he was. I'm sorry, but that's not a healthy relationship. Yes, your partner should call you out on your BS if warranted, but they shouldn't want you to be a different person entirely.
Rachel lectured him because, a lot of the time Bruce was doing questionable things: Wanting to kill Joe Chill. Seemingly wasting his life buying hotels and riding around with random chicks. Wanting to turn himself in to end Joker's crime spree, which was not a surefire plan in the least bit. Alot of what she did WAS calling Bruce out on some of his BS.

Rachel is a badly executed character, but I can't act like Rachel was some harpy who demanded that Bruce change. After finding out he was Batman, she tells Bruce that Thomas would be proud of him. The one truly crappy thing Rachel does is be wishy washy in regards to her relationship with both Bruce and Dent throughout the movie.

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Selina implored with him to see her side, but she was finally of the "if you can't beat them, join them" mindset in the end. And now that they're together, I think she'll use her own abilities to make sure Bruce doesn't get too far into the deep end. Alfred couldn't physically make sure Bruce is safe, but Selina can. And Bruce won't make her be someone else, but he can certainly use his charm to convince her.

That's why I felt she was a far better match for Bruce than Rachel was. Incidentally, my relationship with my husband is more akin to Selina and Bruce's despite the fact that we are far more boring.

It's funny that you say Selina wanted him to see her side, because she never really makes an effort to see his, IMO...especially in regards to his number one rule.

Honestly, Rachel showed a better understanding of Bruce than Selina did, and I think Bruce could've ended up with either one depending on circumstance. I still think that because of the impact Rachel had on his life, she is pretty much the love of this version of Batman's life.

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Old 10-17-2013, 08:13 PM   #913
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Selina accepts every part of Bruce because she can relate to a lot of it. Rachel was just a very different person.
I think Bruce had both his similarities and differences with both women.

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They were never lovers. Even the way it was written, it always seemed like they were just really great friends and Bruce loved her but I think he was mistaken in thinking it was more than just friendship. All because Bruce connects Rachel to his past, his childhood, his parents, Gotham, etc. That's part of the reason why he couldn't get past Rachel. It's not even really her, it's what she represents. Just like his parents for Batman. With Selina, she doesn't really have ties to Gotham, his parents, Alfred, Wayne Manor, all of that stuff.
Why do people act like Bruce had this one sided delusional love? Rachel straight up described him as "The Man I loved", and promised him they'd be together once he'd stop being Batman.

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Id say he looked at Rachel and im not sure if he saw the woman in front of him but only what she symbolizes. With Selina he actually is only looking at the person in front of him. In this universe Bruce and Selina is the real couple. Harvey just saw Rachel for who she was especially in that moment in time. It's like Bruce refuses to think she's changed because he's constantly thinking of the Rachel that was playing with him when they were 9. That's not how **** works! And that's ALL because Bruce didn't get a chance to grow up properly and learn simple lessons. He's always that child either the night his parents died or wishing it was before that night.
Once again, I don't think Bruce is as delusional about Rachel as everyone wants to believe at least not in the way everyone assumes ("he just sees the old her,not the new one"). Does he put enormous expectation on her as his "one hope for a normal life?" Yes. But only because she told him that she thought about him and their relationship the whole seven years he was gone, and promised she'd be with him when he was done being Batman.

I mean....all in all, I just don't see this Bruce/Selina thing as Bruce going "Selina's my alltime soulmate I'm destined to be with! My love for Rachel was only rooted in childhood nostalgia!" I see it as more like "Rachel's gone and I realize that she moved on. Let's see where this relationship with this attractive Cat Burglar goes."

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Old 10-17-2013, 09:18 PM   #914
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Rachel evolved and Bruce never did and that's why Harvey was her best partner. As is Selina for Bruce.
Out of curiosity can you explain why you think Selina is unquestionably the one for Bruce based on what you saw between them in TDKR?

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Old 10-17-2013, 09:25 PM   #915
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^ That's my main thing...I don't think the way their relationship developed in TDKR merits all this "She's his soulmate" talk.

I mean, if Miranda wasn't a complete lie, Bruce would've probably been in Italy with her instead of Selina.

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Old 10-17-2013, 09:30 PM   #916
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Yes Batsy, I know how much you loathe the idea of Bruce having a soul mate in any general medium of Batman, especially if it's Selina.

Don't worry you always have me

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Old 10-17-2013, 09:34 PM   #917
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^ I just imagine you saying these things, then laughing in the same manner as your avy, lol

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Old 10-17-2013, 09:41 PM   #918
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

lol I take that as a compliment. Out of all the versions of Batman that there's been; West, Keaton, Bale, Kilmer, Conroy etc, which Batman do you think you'd be most like?

I imagine you like Conroy the most. He doesn't kill, he is hot for both Selina and Talia but can never be with either one, he has an intensely good rivalry with the Joker, and he can be hard headed but in a good way

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Old 10-17-2013, 09:50 PM   #919
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There's no way I'd be West, Kilmer, or Clooney, lol.

I couldn't imagine myself being like Bale's Batman.

I think its between Keaton or Conroy, for the reasons you stated. Mostly the hard headed-ness.

And it was definitely a compliment, lol.

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Old 10-17-2013, 09:58 PM   #920
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See I can't picture you like Keaton, because his Batman tried to settle down with Selina at the end of Returns, he's a brutal killer, and his Bruce is kind of reclusive and a weirdo. If you were Bruce Wayne, I'd say you'd do what Bale and Conroy did. Flash the money around. Keep up the playboy image:


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Old 10-17-2013, 10:03 PM   #921
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That image is...glorious.

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Old 10-17-2013, 10:11 PM   #922
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I think its between Keaton or Conroy, for the reasons you stated. Mostly the hard headed-ness.
If that's the case, you need to add those two in your cool avatar set up. I never noticed that both of those incarnations were missing until now.



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Old 10-17-2013, 11:27 PM   #923
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I'm assuming you're referring to the Hotel scene in Batman Begins, where Rachel is only upset that Bruce is seemingly doing shallow things while Gotham needs to be fixed.
Don't tell me you forgot the, "Oh BROTHER" look on Rachel's face when Bruce shows up in that helicopter with the two models at the penthouse fundraiser. She already knows he's Batman at that point - she's just not impressed with his theatrics.

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Rachel lectured him because, a lot of the time Bruce was doing questionable things: Wanting to kill Joe Chill. Seemingly wasting his life buying hotels and riding around with random chicks. Wanting to turn himself in to end Joker's crime spree, which was not a surefire plan in the least bit. Alot of what she did WAS calling Bruce out on some of his BS.

Rachel is a badly executed character, but I can't act like Rachel was some harpy who demanded that Bruce change. After finding out he was Batman, she tells Bruce that Thomas would be proud of him. The one truly crappy thing Rachel does is be wishy washy in regards to her relationship with both Bruce and Dent throughout the movie.
She told Bruce that she couldn't be with him until he wasn't Batman anymore. I'd say that's wanting him to change, or at least putting a conditional on things. That's certainly not accepting who he is, which one HAS to do to be in a healthy relationship.

And I don't think she was a harpy, either. She cared for him, and in the end, knew that she wasn't right for him anyway and tried to be honest about that once her decision was final. (Thanks Alfred )

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It's funny that you say Selina wanted him to see her side, because she never really makes an effort to see his, IMO...especially in regards to his number one rule.
But she did. She stopped thinking of herself and came back to help him save Gotham. (I can just imagine her cursing him under her breath as she turns the Batpod around at the tunnel. )

Up until then, she did what she reasonably could to help others, but if she was actually in danger, she was outta there. It was always about looking out for number one, and thanks to Bruce, it wasn't anymore.

And besides, not killing isn't exactly Batman's "number one" rule. It's his one rule that he can't break in his line of work, but he's never said it was the first one he'd ever consider. I'd argue that he's a rescuer above all - when someone's life is in immediate danger, he rescues them instead of going after the bad guy.

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Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
Honestly, Rachel showed a better understanding of Bruce than Selina did, and I think Bruce could've ended up with either one depending on circumstance. I still think that because of the impact Rachel had on his life, she is pretty much the love of this version of Batman's life.
Well, duh, Rachel knew him longer. But she just because she understood him better at that point in time, doesn't mean that she accepted him better. At its root, a relationship isn't about understanding, it's about acceptance.

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^ That's my main thing...I don't think the way their relationship developed in TDKR merits all this "She's his soulmate" talk.
I don't believe in soulmates. But I certainly think Selina's life path in TDKR matched up much better with Bruce's life path, than Rachel's ever did.

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Old 10-18-2013, 08:40 AM   #924
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Don't tell me you forgot the, "Oh BROTHER" look on Rachel's face when Bruce shows up in that helicopter with the two models at the penthouse fundraiser. She already knows he's Batman at that point - she's just not impressed with his theatrics.
I mean, its not like Selina accepted Playboy Bruce Wayne either. It's not until Bruce loses his money that Selina shows even the slightest bit of compassion for Bruce...even then, Bruce recognizes that she's lying. It's when she realizes that Bruce is Batman that she changes her feelings towards him.

Either way, I can't judge Rachel for not caring for a persona that isn't real.

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She told Bruce that she couldn't be with him until he wasn't Batman anymore. I'd say that's wanting him to change, or at least putting a conditional on things. That's certainly not accepting who he is, which one HAS to do to be in a healthy relationship.

And I don't think she was a harpy, either. She cared for him, and in the end, knew that she wasn't right for him anyway and tried to be honest about that once her decision was final. (Thanks Alfred )
I can't hold that against Rachel considering that this version of Bruce dosen't want to be Batman for long either. If this were the "I'm all about the mission" Batman of the comics, I could see your point. In the end, she leaves him because she realizes Bruce hasn't let go of his demons yet.

Also, people are forgetting that Selina wanted him to quit being Batman as well ("Run away with me"), not to mention the pressure Alfred put on him to finally retire. In truth, the only character who actually didn't want Bruce to change was Fox.

This version of Selina and Bruce only get together when Bruce stops being Batman....which is basically what Rachel initially wanted to do in the first place.


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Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
But she did. She stopped thinking of herself and came back to help him save Gotham. (I can just imagine her cursing him under her breath as she turns the Batpod around at the tunnel. )

Up until then, she did what she reasonably could to help others, but if she was actually in danger, she was outta there. It was always about looking out for number one, and thanks to Bruce, it wasn't anymore.
I think she helped Bruce because she cares for Bruce, not for the whole city. She does not share his level of idealism or compassion. And as much as people like to say he and Rachel were incompatible, Rachel did share his idealism and compassion.

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And besides, not killing isn't exactly Batman's "number one" rule. It's his one rule that he can't break in his line of work, but he's never said it was the first one he'd ever consider. I'd argue that he's a rescuer above all - when someone's life is in immediate danger, he rescues them instead of going after the bad guy.
If it's his one rule, I'm pretty sure its his "Number one" rule by default, lol. Either way, Catwoman murders Bane in cold blood, when she really didn't have to. Firing a cannon is overkill.


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Well, duh, Rachel knew him longer. But she just because she understood him better at that point in time, doesn't mean that she accepted him better. At its root, a relationship isn't about understanding, it's about acceptance.
Joker knew Batman all of what, two weeks and showed a better understanding of him than Selina did. I don't think Selina necessarily "accepted" him more than Rachel did. Relationships are sometimes about timing. Bruce wasn't ready to move on from being Batman at the time of BB/TDK, which is one of the main factors is Rachel choosing Harvey. However, by the end of TDKR, not only is Rachel dead, but Bruce realizes she chose harvey. Not to mention that the love interest he had for most of that movie was a lie created by his enemy. The timing for him to get with Selina was perfect.

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Old 10-18-2013, 08:41 AM   #925
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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If that's the case, you need to add those two in your cool avatar set up. I never noticed that both of those incarnations were missing until now.



Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Which reminds me...I do need a new Avatar, lol.

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