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Old 10-21-2013, 04:00 AM   #51
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
If we look at what ought to be 'fixed' in the 'present day' timeline (post 'The Wolverine' and pre DOFP future) what is there other than what was left after X3?

Some continuity hick-ups that are not really a huge deal? Or the deaths of 3 major characters?

I'm not saying they are bringing Clyclops or Jean back back (and Charles is already back), as I am inclined to think that boat has sailed, but I am curious as to just how Singer's 'new' present day X-Men timeline will be different than the post X3 one.
Agreed, and until his time traveling rules are firmly established, that won't answer for what becomes of the fact that Xavier, Eric, Mystique, and Beast from the past are now aware of who Wolverine is and likely what their future was/will be like? I mean it'd be hard to buy that everything afterwards would still proceed into the future like how we saw in X1 to X3.

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Old 10-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #52
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

Well obviously the biggest difference in the altered present day would be no Sentinel threat.

I have faith that Singer and FOX are aware of the fan demand for Cyclops. I don't know how things will play out in DOFP, but it makes sense that this story is the perfect opportunity to right some wrongs. As long as the film is good I'm not going to dwell on the decisions Singer makes, but I can see a future for Scott in following films, whether it be future stories or something set in the 80's.

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Old 10-22-2013, 12:04 PM   #53
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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Well obviously the biggest difference in the altered present day would be no Sentinel threat.

I have faith that Singer and FOX are aware of the fan demand for Cyclops. I don't know how things will play out in DOFP, but it makes sense that this story is the perfect opportunity to right some wrongs. As long as the film is good I'm not going to dwell on the decisions Singer makes, but I can see a future for Scott in following films, whether it be future stories or something set in the 80's.
That's something I've raised before: As presented from the OT there is no sentinel threat to mutants at all in that time. None were used for the raid on the mansion, none showed up in the forest when Madrox was fooling the government, none for the Alcatraz battle etc. The only hint of them was the hologram in the Danger Room, but beyond that I think a file on the computer in X2 was about it.

Now bear in mind these robots have supposedly been in public service 'protecting humanity' since 1973, so their complete omission as a threat from the OT is something they will need to address. Plus Erik's line at the end of the Wolverine that they 'are making a weapon'. 'Making', not they already have one and have had it for about 40 years.

Might even be the reason behind everything: We are all assuming it's just Wolverine going back, but what if someone else went back first and changed things so Trask developed his robots? (maybe thats the weapon Erik is really speaking of? Not the sentinels but a time travel macguffin?) So maybe trask was suposed have died young, or maybe his father was killed in the Cuba incident or something like that?

The latter might be a possibility....Would tie into DOFP if something in the events of First Class are what led to the big change that Wolverine needs to correct (would also allow them to 'correct' other inconsistencies with First Class and the OT).

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Old 10-22-2013, 12:23 PM   #54
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

What your suggesting Is way too complicated than It needs to be.

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Old 10-22-2013, 08:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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What your suggesting Is way too complicated than It needs to be.
It's no more complicated than a sentient computer having taken over the world in the future, brought humanity to near extinction with a nuclear war and it's army of mechanised weapons, only to be beaten back by a human rebellion, so the smart computer sends back in time a robot covered in human flesh to kill the rebellion leader's mother before that man can even be born, which has the human resistance send back a human soldier to stop that robot, with that human ending up becoming that leader's father...

Actually, it's less complicated than that...

And remember who Singer consulted with about his time travel ideas?

Seriously, the idea that something else has tampered with time leading to a Sentinel DOFP future is simpler than trying to explain how these rather conspicuous big ass robots have been running around throughout the original trilogy 'protecting humanity', and yet somehow never made a noteworthy appearance or mention of any sort in any of the mutant shenanigans.

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:03 PM   #56
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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And remember who Singer consulted with about his time travel ideas
Yeah I've always wondered if Singer was getting Cameron's approval for something other than the mechanics of time travel (esp because Cameron seems to have been pretty inconsistent about the rules in his own movies)...something more akin to plot points.

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:11 PM   #57
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

Wobbly makes good points about how the Sentinels haven't been in the OT so if they're developed in the 70's where were they.

My theory is someone travelled back and changed events pre-First Class, that led to some differences like Magneto not helping Charles build Cerebro, Charles getting crippled earlier ect..

And most importantly Trask developed Sentinels. This latter didn't effect the OT as that occured before the timeline was changed.

So basically Timeline 1 is X1 - XMO:W. Timeline 2 is First Class onwards, including the future and past of DOFP

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Old 10-22-2013, 10:32 PM   #58
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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So basically Timeline 1 is X1 - XMO:W. Timeline 2 is First Class onwards, including the future and past of DOFP
You know what, that is still confusing especially when you bring it up to casual viewers. They don't have to do this timeline1/timeline 2.

The first six movies are part of 1 timeline, it doesn't matter if the Sentinels Project was secretly in the works during the original trilogy.

They don't have to make this confusing by telling us there's already 2 timelines even before DOFP starts rolling.

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Old 10-22-2013, 10:35 PM   #59
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

Agreed.

People also forget the time travel In the terminator helped to create the timeline the villains were trying to change.

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Old 10-22-2013, 11:20 PM   #60
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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You know what, that is still confusing especially when you bring it up to casual viewers. They don't have to do this timeline1/timeline 2.

The first six movies are part of 1 timeline, it doesn't matter if the Sentinels Project was secretly in the works during the original trilogy.

They don't have to make this confusing by telling us there's already 2 timelines even before DOFP starts rolling.
That's the problem though: The viral site stuff makes it clear they were not 'secretly' in the works during the OT at all, they have been publicly running around for decades before it. One was even shown standing guard over Ronald Reagan's inauguration! You don''t get any more public than that. I think they have taken that manniped photo down but its still easy to find:



And there's still the time-line stuff on there:
http://www.trask-industries.com/#/genetics

"1973: Trask Industries unveils the Sentinel Program."

And on this page further confirmation:

http://www.trask-industries.com/#/innovation

"Between 1973 and 1996, Trask produced 8732 Sentinel Mark I's for the governments of the United States, China, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, France, India and the United Kingdom."

And one of the things features is a 'Mutant detection system'.

So...either the viral stuff will be completely ignored in DOFP and is therefore utterly fake & pointless, or they did make that site knowing the story, what it's all about, and this stuff does and will apply .

I'm inclined to think the latter (else its just a big fat cheat), and if so then it is clearly at odds with the OT.

So the only explanation I can think of is that the OT's timeline was changed by something (or someone) else prior to the point Wolverine goes back to, and he undoes that damage (halts the Sentinel Program), but in doing so it allows for the OT timeline to still have some changes (Singers 'fix some stuff') when it's restored.

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Old 10-23-2013, 12:23 AM   #61
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

Who knows if the older Prof X and the older Magneto will mention this "Sentinel" program in DOFP, that they existed in the 70s but somewhere disappeared in the 80s/90s/00s for unknown reasons.

And the best excuse for the Sentinels not showing up in the original trilogy is the Sentinels weren't finished yet. Its so easy to make-up a story for that rather than confusing the viewers by telling us that the original trilogy/First Class don't share the same timeline, that the other one is an alternate universe.

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Old 10-23-2013, 03:30 AM   #62
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

I'm secretly hoping that Wolvy gets sent back to the 1940's with the ripple effect accounting for the changes in First Class

(Magneto and Prof X not meeting at 17, etc, several characters being born earlier, etc).

I also hope that Cyclops/Jean etc will be born earlier as a result of this, and that they'll be brought into the next film (with recasts) as 20-30 year olds in the 1970s, where they keep the franchise.

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Old 10-23-2013, 03:46 AM   #63
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

Keeping the franchise in the 1970s would seriously limit them.

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Old 10-23-2013, 04:05 AM   #64
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In what ways? I think it could make X-Men franchise more distinct.

I'd be fine with the other way, with the 2010's being altered (and Cyclops and Jean coming back to life). I just think that the franchise is due for a fresh start (or continuing the fresh start that First Class gave us), and I think DoFP would be a great send off to the old cast (especially Stewart and McKellan who are getting really old).

I suppose they could just give us new characters in the 2010s to keep things fresh, but I just really want to see Jean and Scott (and Iceman & Angel) joining the team for the first time, in yellow/blue jumpsuits, etc. That's all I want.


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Old 10-23-2013, 07:05 AM   #65
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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Who knows if the older Prof X and the older Magneto will mention this "Sentinel" program in DOFP, that they existed in the 70s but somewhere disappeared in the 80s/90s/00s for unknown reasons.

And the best excuse for the Sentinels not showing up in the original trilogy is the Sentinels weren't finished yet. Its so easy to make-up a story for that rather than confusing the viewers by telling us that the original trilogy/First Class don't share the same timeline, that the other one is an alternate universe.
Again, you are ignoring all the viral site stuff (have you read it?). They state the Sentinels have been in service since 1973 (so they were finished, one even present at Reagan's inauguration) and they are still in service up until the date the site is set in (2020 plus). Zero mention of them ever being out of service for a convenient 13 years while the OT through to the Wolverine took place.

So either the viral site is accurate information for Trask & the Sentinels history for this film, or its all a misleading cheat.

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Old 10-23-2013, 08:53 AM   #66
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

And there Is only 2 time frames in film.1973 and future.

Some want film to be more complicated than It needs to be.And it remains to be seen if any of viral stuff will actully be onscreen.

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Old 10-23-2013, 02:47 PM   #67
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Default Re: Time travel method and ripple effect thread

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Again, you are ignoring all the viral site stuff (have you read it?). They state the Sentinels have been in service since 1973 (so they were finished, one even present at Reagan's inauguration) and they are still in service up until the date the site is set in (2020 plus). Zero mention of them ever being out of service for a convenient 13 years while the OT through to the Wolverine took place.

So either the viral site is accurate information for Trask & the Sentinels history for this film, or its all a misleading cheat.
Even though I think your earlier analysis of think is really good, wobbly, I also think that the viral site might be playing coy with us with respect to the sentinels. I think it is possible that they were around in the OT film timeline, but weren't active on US soil during the time of the movies. I made a (long) post about this issue here, but the concise version:
Quote:
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The Sentinel Program

In 1973, Trask Industries introduced the first Sentinel production model, the Mark I. Bolivar Trask’s groundbreaking research in AI, robotics and autonomous ballistic systems laid the foundation for the world's most capable anti-mutant defense system. Since the program's inception, we’ve continued to advance our founder's cause through eight additional generational upgrades and enhancements.

As we celebrate five decades of achievement, we also bid farewell to regular production of the Mark I and shift our efforts to full-time manufacturing of the Mark X — our first complete overhaul of the Sentinel line. These highly anticipated units will combine next-generation nanotechnology and bioweapon breakthroughs, promising an even brighter future for the human race.

Sentinel Mark I (9th generation)

Between 1973 and 1996, Trask produced 8732 Sentinel Mark Is for the governments of the United States, China, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, France, India and the United Kingdom. The Mark I is still in service and current generations include the following features...
I find it suspicious that the production statistic doesn't go past 1996 -- it makes me wonder if the program was shut down (or regulated in a way that meant no new sentinels could be made) after that year. We also haven't seen any viral pics of sentinels that are clearly set post-1996 (as opposed to the Regan inauguration one). I think it's possible that sentinels were more active up until 1996 when the political atmosphere changed and they became more tightly regulated (perhaps unable to act on US soil) or even put out of service. Then after Magneto started stirring up stuff during the OT the US/World governments decided to use the sentinels on the mutants. (That would be when they started adding in the mutant detecting upgrades and designing the Mark X.)

Again, I don't disagree with your idea that we're looking at an already altered timeline -- I've defended that idea in the past. But I think, based on what we know/don't know so far, that it could go either way (altered or not altered) at this point.

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Old 10-23-2013, 07:55 PM   #68
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Even though I think your earlier analysis of think is really good, wobbly, I also think that the viral site might be playing coy with us with respect to the sentinels. I think it is possible that they were around in the OT film timeline, but weren't active on US soil during the time of the movies. I made a (long) post about this issue here, but the concise version:


I find it suspicious that the production statistic doesn't go past 1996 -- it makes me wonder if the program was shut down (or regulated in a way that meant no new sentinels could be made) after that year. We also haven't seen any viral pics of sentinels that are clearly set post-1996 (as opposed to the Regan inauguration one). I think it's possible that sentinels were more active up until 1996 when the political atmosphere changed and they became more tightly regulated (perhaps unable to act on US soil) or even put out of service. Then after Magneto started stirring up stuff during the OT the US/World governments decided to use the sentinels on the mutants. (That would be when they started adding in the mutant detecting upgrades and designing the Mark X.)

Again, I don't disagree with your idea that we're looking at an already altered timeline -- I've defended that idea in the past. But I think, based on what we know/don't know so far, that it could go either way (altered or not altered) at this point.

Yeah, they could go either way. I do think that they will have to explain the Sentinels absence during the OT one way or another though (taken of service for some reason, or they didn't exist at all).

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Old 10-23-2013, 11:21 PM   #69
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Again, you are ignoring all the viral site stuff (have you read it?). They state the Sentinels have been in service since 1973 (so they were finished, one even present at Reagan's inauguration) and they are still in service up until the date the site is set in (2020 plus). Zero mention of them ever being out of service for a convenient 13 years while the OT through to the Wolverine took place.

So either the viral site is accurate information for Trask & the Sentinels history for this film, or its all a misleading cheat.
Umm there's a lot of things in the government that people don't know about. That Sentinel project could have been active for decades but as far as the public are aware of, they didn't exist or it wasn't active for decades.

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Old 10-24-2013, 01:17 AM   #70
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Just a small doubt guys.

Why should they send Wolverine's mind into the past?

Can't they send Wolverine himself or someone else(Bishop) using a time travel machine?

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Old 10-24-2013, 07:11 AM   #71
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Umm there's a lot of things in the government that people don't know about. That Sentinel project could have been active for decades but as far as the public are aware of, they didn't exist or it wasn't active for decades.
Umm, You can look a that Reagan photo (they made that not me) and still insist the Sentinels are a big secret and the public did not know they even existed? It's not exactly a 'Where's Waldo?' moment.

Seriously, they have shown one standing guard over that Presidents inauguration so that's either 1981 or 1985, so they are public knowledge prior to the OT. The public aint blind.

Only way for them to have remained a secret as you state is for us to ignore the viral site completely (is so then what's the point of them making the thing?)

Now the info there does allow for the Mark I being taken out of service for a spell covering the OT due to it's production stopping in 1996 (though they do state the earlier models are all still in service prior to the Mark X, so not unlike how old air planes or cars can remain in service for decades after production has ceased), but they were still first built in 1973 and they were in the public eye (you can''t exactly hide an 18ft tall robot running around after all).

So either the viral site info is accurate or its a lie. If it's accurate then the public does know about them and has done since 1985 at the very latest.

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Old 10-24-2013, 07:22 AM   #72
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Just a small doubt guys.

Why should they send Wolverine's mind into the past?

Can't they send Wolverine himself or someone else(Bishop) using a time travel machine?
The mind swap deal is in keeping with the original comic story, and them using mutant abilities to pull off the feat is more in keeping with them than having access to a time machine that anyone can use.

Why Wolverine and not Magneto or Xavier? (both also exist in 1973). For plot purposes maybe his healing factor is the only thing that allows him to survive the process. For non plot purposes, Wolverine's the star (again...)

Why not just send Bishop? We don't know yet, but I'm sure they'll have some explanation for that.

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Old 10-24-2013, 08:34 AM   #73
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I expect that the alternate DOFP future will be fixed. So Kitty and Xavier will still be there.

Andwhen Wolverine returns from the past, he will now be in the new timeline.

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Old 10-24-2013, 11:24 PM   #74
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Umm, You can look a that Reagan photo (they made that not me) and still insist the Sentinels are a big secret and the public did not know they even existed? It's not exactly a 'Where's Waldo?' moment.

Seriously, they have shown one standing guard over that Presidents inauguration so that's either 1981 or 1985, so they are public knowledge prior to the OT. The public aint blind.

Only way for them to have remained a secret as you state is for us to ignore the viral site completely (is so then what's the point of them making the thing?)

Now the info there does allow for the Mark I being taken out of service for a spell covering the OT due to it's production stopping in 1996 (though they do state the earlier models are all still in service prior to the Mark X, so not unlike how old air planes or cars can remain in service for decades after production has ceased), but they were still first built in 1973 and they were in the public eye (you can''t exactly hide an 18ft tall robot running around after all).

So either the viral site info is accurate or its a lie. If it's accurate then the public does know about them and has done since 1985 at the very latest.
They didn't exist or they weren't active sometime between 70s and DOFP. Thats why they weren't mentioned in the original trilogy.

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Old 10-25-2013, 12:14 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by psylockolussus View Post
They didn't exist or they weren't active sometime between 70s and DOFP.
Ok they were created in 1973 and this is from either 1981 or 1985:


So they did exist publicly from 1985 at the latest and they were in still in production for several countries up until 1996 (which does not mean they were no longer in service after that point either).

You really are ignoring that viral site, it's timeline for Trask's work on mutant genetics, his Sentinels, the works.

Quote:
Thats why they weren't mentioned in the original trilogy.
The most likely explanation will either be that something else has changed history to enable the Sentinel program to exist in the first place, or they were conveniently taken out of service just before all of the OT events (which would not explain why Stryker had none stationed at 3 mile Island, where he was keeping a load of dangerous mutants in cages...).

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