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Old 10-15-2013, 12:12 AM   #101
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But here is a good question, if the Ultimate Mole Man was the inferior ho hum version of the character, how much change would you accept to make Movie Mole Man a more interesting and relevant character then he generally is the comics? How many changes to a B-list villain being transitioned to the Big Screen are acceptable?
Fair question - I guess the lower the list the villain is on [B-list, C-list, etc.] perhaps the more latitude. I had no problem in IM2 with Whiplash being rolled into Crimson Dynamo as how many armored villains can Tony go up against with out it being totally redundant.

Like wise, with Mole Man if they take some Ultimate elements - like our or another government screwing him over and thus he's mad at the world - as his motivation over being rejected by girls and co-workers - I have no problem with that as long as it still gets him underground with Moloids and Monsters.

I do have more of an issue with his being part of the Baxter Project [which I don't really like anyway] and harboring this crush on Sue, etc. I think this gets him too close to a Doom like back story of having some convenient past connection to the group before they are the FF. This works fine for a villain - and Doom is that villain - but not every villain [or even several villains]. Now once the FF encounter MM if he takes a liking to Sue, fine, but let it develop from these encounters and not yet another past association.

It's okay for the heroes to go after the villain because that villain is doing something bad and needs to be stopped. Hitler and Roosevelt were not college adversaries that later became leaders of their respective countries and then settled their old scores on the world stage. The FF and every villain does not have to be either - leave that for Reed and Doom.

My worry with an A-lister like Doom being the villain in the reboot is that said villain will get short changed in the movie because of ALL the other story that needs to be told in addition to his back story and story arc. This is what screwed up the Green Goblin in Spider-Man and Doom in the first FF. If we have to retell the origin of the FF and the Negative Zone is used [the only Ultimate idea I really like] then let Blastaar be the villain. After all the back story/origin etc. of the FF there's not that much time to develop a complex villain too - some one like Blastaar would serve to show the dangers contained in the N-Zone as well as give the FF a good sparing partner, etc.

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Old 10-15-2013, 01:39 AM   #102
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I really hope if they are going the UFF route that the origin is quickly told and then move on to the story...Doom NEEDS to be Latveria's ruler already...we need to see the nation for once, its citizens, etc. Further DOOM needs to LOOK the part...I mean how many times are we going to have a chance to see Marvel's ULTIMATE villain on the big screen before he is done comic book justice?

I just know that MARVEL would love to have their ultimate villain to integrate into their stories...instead Fox holds Doom ransom and will never let go
I don't think Doom needs to be the ruler of Latveria in the first film. The story should take its time setting up the origin and introducing us to these characters especially since they're going to be younger. Since, you know, an FF movie, at least the first, should be about the team.

And I used to be like you, but after thinking more on it, Marvel doesn't need Doom or the FF really. It would just be nice to see easter eggs with them. But in general, the FF and Doom don't historically have a lot to do with the Avengers and vice versa. Marvel has more than enough to work with.

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Old 10-15-2013, 04:22 AM   #103
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I don't think Green Goblin was screwed up in Spider-Man, maybe the costume, but the character himself was great, and his visions in 2 and 3 were still threatening. Not sure about Blastaar, would he really b a better villain than Anihilus? Or would Anihilus be that difficult to use in the origin film?

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Old 10-15-2013, 04:38 AM   #104
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I don't see why Annihilus would be a hard villain to do in the origin film. If anything it would be extremely simple because he's not that complex. They disturb and open up the Negative Zone which, on top of giving them powers, unleashes Annihilus and the Annihilation Wave which simply want to...annihilate. You can focus on the team and their relationship primarily and Annihilus can act as a simple, somewhat generic alien-type invading antagonist. All the while Doom is clearly being set up for bigger things later on and is the cause of unleashing the N-Zone, which in itself makes him the in-direct main villain of the film.

The reason I prefer Annihilus over Blastaar is because...well, i think it's a cooler concept and he's just a bigger FF villain...and Marvel villain in general. Blastaar is pretty much most well known for his relationship to Annihilus. I can see them using both him and Annihilus in the film, honestly. Annihilus would just be the main antagonist and Blastaar would probably be more like fodder to guide the FF through the Negative Zone and show how powerful Annihilus is when he kills him.


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Old 10-15-2013, 08:29 AM   #105
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I don't think Doom needs to be the ruler of Latveria in the first film. The story should take its time setting up the origin and introducing us to these characters especially since they're going to be younger. Since, you know, an FF movie, at least the first, should be about the team.

And I used to be like you, but after thinking more on it, Marvel doesn't need Doom or the FF really. It would just be nice to see easter eggs with them. But in general, the FF and Doom don't historically have a lot to do with the Avengers and vice versa. Marvel has more than enough to work with.
How can you say that Marvel doesn't need its ULTIMATE villain...Thanos may be cosmically bigger, but Doom is the villain all other villains wish they could be like. If done right, Doom could be better and bigger than Darth Vader...certainly more memorable...being at Marvel and taking on all of their characters would be huge. The REAL rivalry between Richards and Doom would be enough to fill several movies...if not that rivalry, then Doom and Stark has a great rapport as well...Reference Iron Man #149-150, #249-250, etc. Also one of the best Avenger storylines with Doom was the Graphic Novel "Emperor Doom."

Doom desperately needs to go home and just from what details are "leaked" if this is the direction they are taking the good doctor in, I am not impressed for the most part....I mean the Roger Corman F4 at least had all the basic factors there: scarred in a college experiment, ruler of Latveria, actual armor worn, classic Doom look, utter hatred of Richards, army of Doom soldiers,even had a booming voice (a little hard to understand sometimes), maybe a little over the top theatrically. The budget might have been under $2 million but it is still leap years closer than 2 big budget films, now a 3rd version...the general public and the comic book audience will never get to see a truly faithful Doom while at Fox...I feel pretty confident that Marvel would do it justice...you can't think that conversations with Whedon and Feige etc haven't brought up Doom/Latveria on numerous occasions.

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Old 10-15-2013, 11:29 AM   #106
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I don't think Green Goblin was screwed up in Spider-Man, maybe the costume, but the character himself was great, and his visions in 2 and 3 were still threatening. Not sure about Blastaar, would he really b a better villain than Anihilus? Or would Anihilus be that difficult to use in the origin film?
I was addressing the small amount of screen time the Goblin had in Spider-Man more so than his bad costume design. By including Spidey's major villain in the same movie as Spidey's origin, the Goblin had little screen time to be developed as a threat before he was killed - had we not gotten two sequels he would have really been short changed.

Same with an FF reboot if they go all the way back to their origin and possible deeper into their past - this will allow very little screen time for the villain to be properly developed - like Doom in the first Fox FF film. It is not a question of Annihilus being "difficult" to use, rather him getting too little screen time to make it worth using him. Thus my reason for suggesting Blastaar - he's a cool villain visually and has unique powers that would give the FF enough of a challenge while they are learning to use their new abilities and would serve as an introduction to the dangers that lurk in the N-Zone.

Just a thought...

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Old 10-15-2013, 01:43 PM   #107
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How can you say that Marvel doesn't need its ULTIMATE villain...Thanos may be cosmically bigger, but Doom is the villain all other villains wish they could be like. If done right, Doom could be better and bigger than Darth Vader...certainly more memorable...being at Marvel and taking on all of their characters would be huge. The REAL rivalry between Richards and Doom would be enough to fill several movies...if not that rivalry, then Doom and Stark has a great rapport as well...Reference Iron Man #149-150, #249-250, etc. Also one of the best Avenger storylines with Doom was the Graphic Novel "Emperor Doom."

Doom desperately needs to go home and just from what details are "leaked" if this is the direction they are taking the good doctor in, I am not impressed for the most part....I mean the Roger Corman F4 at least had all the basic factors there: scarred in a college experiment, ruler of Latveria, actual armor worn, classic Doom look, utter hatred of Richards, army of Doom soldiers,even had a booming voice (a little hard to understand sometimes), maybe a little over the top theatrically. The budget might have been under $2 million but it is still leap years closer than 2 big budget films, now a 3rd version...the general public and the comic book audience will never get to see a truly faithful Doom while at Fox...I feel pretty confident that Marvel would do it justice...you can't think that conversations with Whedon and Feige etc haven't brought up Doom/Latveria on numerous occasions.
Because Doom is a Fantastic Four villain and would be primarily used in Fantastic Four related stories even if Marvel had them. He's rarely ever got into it with the Avengers. Marvel doesn't need him as a villain for any of their characters. They have more than enough with what they have, which are the actual Avengers villains. Doom is THE Marvel villain because he's Marvel's First Family's main villain.

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Old 10-15-2013, 02:08 PM   #108
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I was addressing the small amount of screen time the Goblin had in Spider-Man more so than his bad costume design. By including Spidey's major villain in the same movie as Spidey's origin, the Goblin had little screen time to be developed as a threat before he was killed - had we not gotten two sequels he would have really been short changed.

Same with an FF reboot if they go all the way back to their origin and possible deeper into their past - this will allow very little screen time for the villain to be properly developed - like Doom in the first Fox FF film. It is not a question of Annihilus being "difficult" to use, rather him getting too little screen time to make it worth using him. Thus my reason for suggesting Blastaar - he's a cool villain visually and has unique powers that would give the FF enough of a challenge while they are learning to use their new abilities and would serve as an introduction to the dangers that lurk in the N-Zone.

Just a thought...
There's nothing about Annihilus that requires a lot of screen time. He's not a complex villain. He's not Doom. He's a freaky looking thing that wants to annihilate and rule. It's really that simple.

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Old 10-15-2013, 05:42 PM   #109
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About Marvel Studios, this is a not very popular idea, but if the franchise got back to them i think they should make the film set in the 60s, as it is they would just be "another superhero team", and if they wanted to cause a bigger impact MS would have to make them closer to Ultimate Marvel, which is exactly what Fox os doing right now. There's allways time travel if they want a reason for the team to be in the present, and then Dr.Doom would take his throne in Latveria again and could lead to the next big event.

The setting would also make wonders to Mole Man, it would really fit the character and the film could even pay tribute to the time's giant monster films, the Fantastic Four would Basically be the Beatles of Superheroes, something that fits them quite well. If you wanted a different villain who could tie in their origin then the Red Ghost could work, his country is competing against the FF's and he ends up being caught in the same wave that gave them their powers.

This of course is based on the possibility that Marvel Studios would allow to make 3-4 Fantastic Four films set in the past and hold on Dr.Doom for 1 or 2 phases, which would be unlikelly, unless them receiving the rights back was a sudden event and they had already a blueprint ready for those phases the same way they have right now with Thanos.

Mr.Dent, i'm not sure about making Anihilus be released right when the team gets their powers, i was imagining something more like Ultimate where they explore the Negative Zone once again and this time we actually see the place, with Anihilus and his forces being released on earth for the climax of the film.

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Old 10-15-2013, 07:38 PM   #110
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That's what I meant. I didn't mean he'd be released immediately. They'd explore the Negative Zone, meet Blastaar, and in the third act of the film Annihilus would try bring the Annihilation Wave out of the Negative Zone.

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Old 10-16-2013, 04:54 AM   #111
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Yeah that sounds like a good idea, i remember them saying that they had Anihilus planed for the 3rd film, but if there's a perfect time to use him it's now. With Fox taking so much from Ultimate Fantastic Four it seems like a waste not to have him, i think they're shooting themselves in the foot by using Dr.Doom again in the origin film.

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Old 10-16-2013, 10:05 AM   #112
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Depending on how they use Doom it's not a waste. If they just set him up as this scheming guy who causes the problems that lead to the N-Zone being unleashed and them all getting powers like in Ultimate FF and don't make him necessarily the main villain, then it's fine. They can build up to him being the main villain over multiple films.

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Old 10-16-2013, 10:49 AM   #113
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Depending on how they use Doom it's not a waste. If they just set him up as this scheming guy who causes the problems that lead to the N-Zone being unleashed and them all getting powers like in Ultimate FF and don't make him necessarily the main villain, then it's fine. They can build up to him being the main villain over multiple films.
He's the main villain.

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Old 10-16-2013, 02:28 PM   #114
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So Annihilus isn't involved at all? If he's the main villain I still hope it involves Annihilus. It would be a missed opportunity not to. Make Doom the master planner and Annihilus the main muscle/threat for most of the film. I think they can set up the FF and Doom and all that and still fit in Annihilus.

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Old 10-16-2013, 03:16 PM   #115
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He's the main villain.
Can you confirm on how he will look? Classic Doom look or those wretched goat legs? Metal skin or armor?

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Old 10-16-2013, 04:01 PM   #116
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If Dr.Doom is the villain I doubt he'll have goat legs.

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Old 10-16-2013, 08:23 PM   #117
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Fair question - I guess the lower the list the villain is on [B-list, C-list, etc.] perhaps the more latitude. I had no problem in IM2 with Whiplash being rolled into Crimson Dynamo as how many armored villains can Tony go up against with out it being totally redundant.

Like wise, with Mole Man if they take some Ultimate elements - like our or another government screwing him over and thus he's mad at the world - as his motivation over being rejected by girls and co-workers - I have no problem with that as long as it still gets him underground with Moloids and Monsters.
Mole Man having grudge against entire world if he was monstrous psychopath, because really punishing the the entire world for a actions of a few, seems like something a monster. So what would Mole Man be in this film, a sympathetic villain, an evil monster or something else?

If Mole Man wants revenge on the government and has a legitimate beef with them, that makes more sympathetic then wanting revenge against the world. It will depends on how Mole Man should be played.

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I do have more of an issue with his being part of the Baxter Project [which I don't really like anyway] and harboring this crush on Sue, etc. I think this gets him too close to a Doom like back story of having some convenient past connection to the group before they are the FF. This works fine for a villain - and Doom is that villain - but not every villain [or even several villains]. Now once the FF encounter MM if he takes a liking to Sue, fine, but let it develop from these encounters and not yet another past association.
I would forgo the Baxter Project as well, but there is no reason why we can't bump up Mole Man's background, perhaps he is a fan of Reed Richards and admires his work, even if they never really met.

But here's the thing, how important is Doom's supposed crush on Sue in the comics? Because to me, it seems like something that comes up once in a blue moon, doesn't really go anywhere and thus seems really unimportant compared to his hatred of Reed.

Plus Victor's childhood friend Valeria seems like the life of Doom's life, at best it seems like Doom has mild infatuation with Sue, rather then some sort obsession with her and frankly sometimes Doom is just being chivalrous towards her, he might he just have more of a soft spot for women then men. Doom often seemed to have no problem trying to kill in his attempts to get at Reed. Doom has dinner with Silver Sable, he is polite towards her, but he has no real romantic intentions.

Doom doesn't really need any romantic relationship with Sue in the movies, he just be somewhat chivalrous towards. It seems like no matter what, sexual frustration is part of Mole Man's motives, so it would make sense that he would latch on onto Sue and develop a creepy obsession with her. It seems like Mole Man, who is far less graceful then Doom, would have a far more creepy and immature obsession with Sue then Doom ever would, Doom being a stalker would go against his sense of nobility, he may flirt with her, but it wouldn't have the same creepy tone a Mole Man obsession would.

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It's okay for the heroes to go after the villain because that villain is doing something bad and needs to be stopped. Hitler and Roosevelt were not college adversaries that later became leaders of their respective countries and then settled their old scores on the world stage. The FF and every villain does not have to be either - leave that for Reed and Doom.
No, but to carry a movie, the villain and hero need an interesting dynamic, it has to be developed then:

Villain: Ha, ha, I am evil and I want to take over the world

Hero: Because I am good guy, I will stop you.

Why should care about their conflict, if that's one dimensional?

In the Dark Knight, Joker and Batman never met before the events of the film, but they developed a very interesting dynamic over the course of the movie and what started out as Batman seeing Joker as just another criminal became far more then that. That's what makes for a good villain, the dynamic he has with the hero, rather then his gimmick or costume or anything. If Mole Man doesn't have interesting dynamic with the FF, why should care about their conflict?

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My worry with an A-lister like Doom being the villain in the reboot is that said villain will get short changed in the movie because of ALL the other story that needs to be told in addition to his back story and story arc. This is what screwed up the Green Goblin in Spider-Man and Doom in the first FF. If we have to retell the origin of the FF and the Negative Zone is used [the only Ultimate idea I really like] then let Blastaar be the villain. After all the back story/origin etc. of the FF there's not that much time to develop a complex villain too - some one like Blastaar would serve to show the dangers contained in the N-Zone as well as give the FF a good sparing partner, etc.
One of the problems with the Green Lantern, is they went with a C-list villain like Hector Hammond, instead of a villain that actually could carry a movie, plus no one begrudged having Red Skull and Loki appearing in the first Thor and Captain America movies, that road goes both ways.

Annihilus seems to have a lot of advantages over Blastaar, he has a better name, a better look, has better stories and is just scarier. I don't think Blastaar ever got a story that was as good as Annihilation, so really what makes Blastaar better choice for a villain of an N-Zone movie over Annihilus.


We only need one major N-Zone story and I would go with Annihilus over Blastaar. Going to the N-Zone too often would be tiring and would take away from stories we could tell in a FF movie series.


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Old 10-19-2013, 12:12 AM   #118
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I'm really curious who they cast for Doom over pretty much any other casting for this flick. They can't screw this up.

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Old 10-20-2013, 02:44 PM   #119
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I'm really curious who they cast for Doom over pretty much any other casting for this flick. They can't screw this up.
You mean to say "They can't screw this up...again...and again!"

It still is sad that they Roger Corman produced 1994 F4 is still closer in heart and spirit to what Kirby and Lee created...heck even Doom looks like classic Doom..cheaply made yes...but still ruler of Latveria, Doom army, and even had a booming voice...it was hard to understand him at times, but at least everything felt close to the original idea...save for the Jeweler who was obviously a Mole Man ripoff....

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Old 10-20-2013, 07:53 PM   #120
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We only need one major N-Zone story and I would go with Annihilus over Blastaar. Going to the N-Zone too often would be tiring and would take away from stories we could tell in a FF movie series.
No real argument here - but with all the necessary back story to set up who the FF are, how they got their powers, how they learned to use them, etc. AS WELL as introducing the villain, his threat, and resolving that - well it does not sound like there's room for a "major N-Zone" story - which is the reason I am suggesting saving Annihilus for another time.

They start shooting in a few months, so I guess we will be hearing who the bad guy is for this reboot soon enough...

If I had any real problem with the Red Skull in Cap movie - other than the fact the it was Baron Zemo who was responsible for Cap being frozen - it was that they sort of raced over his entire story to get to an ending [Cap frozen] that should have been saved for the intro to the Avengers.

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Old 10-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #121
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No real argument here - but with all the necessary back story to set up who the FF are, how they got their powers, how they learned to use them, etc. AS WELL as introducing the villain, his threat, and resolving that - well it does not sound like there's room for a "major N-Zone" story - which is the reason I am suggesting saving Annihilus for another time.

They start shooting in a few months, so I guess we will be hearing who the bad guy is for this reboot soon enough...

If I had any real problem with the Red Skull in Cap movie - other than the fact the it was Baron Zemo who was responsible for Cap being frozen - it was that they sort of raced over his entire story to get to an ending [Cap frozen] that should have been saved for the intro to the Avengers.
Fair enough, I get the point you need a lot of room to explore the FF in the first movie, to reintroduce them to the general audience and perhaps cover the origin if need be.

But you still need a dynamic and hopefully thematic villain to carry the conflict. If the conflict is just most generic hero vs. villain battle imaginable, then why should anyone care about the conflict? You can't expect John Q Public to care about an FF movie, just because the FF is in it, especially after those first two movies. The movie has to stand on its own, where even if you know nothing of the FF, it is still an entertaining movie.

I think the reason a lot of villains in comic book movies get tied to the heroes origin or back story, is not only does it give the villain an emotional tie to the hero, but also streamlines things so the pacing of the film is not bogged down by trying to introduce a villain that is completely separate to the proceedings in the film. No one seemed to mind that Obadiah Stane was Tony's mentor instead of some corporate raider that Stark never met before and that's also the reason Oscorp is the host of the scientific exhibit that gave Peter Parker his powers in the movies, rather then some nameless company. Also no one complained when Ra's Al Ghul was the one who trained Batman in Batman Begins. You only have 2 hours to tell a story in a movie, so its easy to see why they tend to streamline things.

Really Annihilus just has better stories then Blastaar does, he is just a better written villain and I think after Annihilation he comes off as a way bigger threat then Blastaar does. If I had to go N-Zone villain, I would easily pick Annihilus over Blastaar. Maybe they shouldn't start with an N-Zone story, but they need something to make the conflict in the movie interesting and dynamic.

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Old 10-24-2013, 11:04 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post

Really Annihilus just has better stories then Blastaar does, he is just a better written villain and I think after Annihilation he comes off as a way bigger threat then Blastaar does. If I had to go N-Zone villain, I would easily pick Annihilus over Blastaar. Maybe they shouldn't start with an N-Zone story, but they need something to make the conflict in the movie interesting and dynamic.
Assuming that they are going the "Ultimate" route with this reboot - their origin is tied to the N-Zone [my favorite part of the Ultimate FF] but that does not mean it has to be a Negative Zone story.

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