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Old 11-02-2013, 12:28 PM   #1
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Default Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

Theory time.

So, we saw in Thor: The Dark World that Erik Selvig has become some kind of insane scientist and a laughing stock since the Avengers, what with streaking in Stonehenge and delivering astrophysics talks to mental patients. To me, the movie gave the impression that Selvig had lost his job because of his co-operation with Loki, even though he was under mind control.

Which got me thinking, this also happened to Hawkeye. Black Widow had to fight him herself, and knock him out. The character is also notably absent in Captain America: The Winter Soldier next year, the movie that most people thought he would turn up in and where he fits best. Instead of a three-way team of Cap, Black Widow and Hawkeye, it's Cap, Black Widow and Falcon.

Now, after he was snapped out of it in Avengers he went on to help in the Battle of New York, which you could argue means he's still in the employ of SHIELD, but the Helicarrier was in disarray at that point and Cap knew that he'd be useful in battle.

What if Hawkeye isn't a SHIELD agent anymore? Maybe I'm just overthinking all this and he's on some mission in TWS, but it would be interesting to see Hawkeye grow into an actual hero. Whedon said himself he plays a big part in the film, and one of my early ideas was that he's working as some kind of international hero and co-operating with Nick Fury, Cap and Natasha who would have gone underground at the end of TWS.

What do you guys think? Does Hawkeye work better as an Agent of SHIELD or as his own hero/Avenger?

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Old 11-02-2013, 03:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

He's essentially been the forgotten Avenger. Since the Avengers:

Iron Man: Iron Man 3
The Incredible Hulk: Appearing after the credits of Iron Man 3. He's probably still going to be hanging with Stark as we start the Age of Ultron.
Thor: Thor 3
Black Widow: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Captain America: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Also:

Nick Fury: Agents of Shield, Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Maria Hill: Agents of Shield, Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Even if he survives the Age of Ultron, we may not see him at all until Avengers 3, which by that time we will have seen Ant Man, Wasp, Doctor Strange, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Black Panther, The Guardians of the Galaxy and The Inhumans. Maybe we see Vision as well. Also other heroes could show up in the other phase 3 movies like Brother Voodoo (Black Panther) and Bill Foster (Ant Man). And Bucky returns as well, this time as Bucky.

I know we won't see Iron Man until Avengers 3, but at least he'll be mentioned, unlike Hawkeye.

As for the new heroes introduced, I can see Falcon, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch appearing in more Phase 3 movies than Hawkeye has in the entire MCU. Falcon because he would give the Avengers some much needed diversity and I could see both of the twins show up in cameo roles in the Inhumans, especially if Crystal is one of the Inhumans.

He's been so much the forgotten Avenger that he has yet to be reference in Agents of Shield while everyone else has been.

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Old 11-02-2013, 04:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

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Old 11-03-2013, 03:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

I don't know why we are debating this when Joss has said that Hawkeye will have a big part to play in Age of Ultron.

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Old 11-03-2013, 04:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

I didn't deny that, what Joss said was written in the OP. The question was whether Hawkeye will still be a SHIELD agent in Age of Ultron, not whether he'll still be an Avenger.

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Old 11-03-2013, 10:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

I see no reason why he wouldn't. Comparisons with Selveig are really not that analogous. Honestly, it just strikes me as more "arbitrary desire to separate every possible Avenger from being part of the authorities" to me.

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Old 11-03-2013, 01:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

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To me, the movie gave the impression that Selvig had lost his job because of his co-operation with Loki, even though he was under mind control.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Selvig lost his job, not because of "co-operation" with Loki, but because he became highly erratic & eccentric after Loki fiddled with his mind and exposed him to "truth" and probably highly complex information.

I don't think Hawkeye was exposed to the same knowledge, since Loki needed him for a very different purpose. So I don't expect him to be messed up like Selvig.



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What if Hawkeye isn't a SHIELD agent anymore? Maybe I'm just overthinking all this and he's on some mission in TWS
I'm quite sure you're overthinking it.

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He's essentially been the forgotten Avenger. Since the Avengers:

Iron Man: Iron Man 3
The Incredible Hulk: Appearing after the credits of Iron Man 3. He's probably still going to be hanging with Stark as we start the Age of Ultron.
Thor: Thor 3
Black Widow: Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Captain America: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Also:
Nick Fury: Agents of Shield, Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Maria Hill: Agents of Shield, Captain America: The Winter Soldier
A little premature of you, don't you think? We aren't in 2015 yet, Barton could very well have a cameo in TWS propper, or in the post-credits to TWS or GotG. Or possibly an episode or two of AoS.

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Old 11-04-2013, 08:13 AM   #8
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

Well, here's the thing about Hawkeye, and it's an easy out for the writers of just about any of the currently active Marvel projects:

Hawkeye killed a lot of SHIELD agents and nearly destroyed the Helicarrier.
Doesn't matter that he was under mind control at the time; that's like trying to plead innocence for committing a slew of heinous murders while you were stoned, drunk, and/or insane. In the view of the courts, he's still guilty as sin.

So a logical explanation would be that, even after playing hero at the Battle of New York, Hawkeye *would* have to stand trial for numerous murders committed in Stuttgart and on the Helicarrier. There'd be *some* leniency there, given the circumstances, and his "shot at redemption" as an Avenger would definitely be taken into consideration, but in the end, the court would have to find him guilty of at least some kind of lesser manslaughter charges.

Bottom line --- Hawkeye probably went to jail. He most definitely would've lost his "badge" and SHIELD security clearances, and SHIELD would surely consider him too much of a security risk to re-hire.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that, in AOU, the Avengers will either bail him out or flat-out jailbreak him to get him back onto the team.

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Old 11-04-2013, 08:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

Hawkeye: Supermax in Phase 3!

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Old 11-04-2013, 09:44 AM   #10
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

SHIELD is an organization that recognizes the super-natural. I don't see them treating being possessed as being the same as drunk or stoned...at all. Hell, look at all the murder and destruction Hulk caused and they invited him on board anyways

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Old 11-04-2013, 10:30 AM   #11
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Hawkeye is one of SHIELD's top agents. They're not going to kick him out just because he got mind-controlled by a God wielding a mystical McGuffin spear that NO ONE outside of Thor was prepared for or knew how to handle. Gods and aliens are outside of his skill set, at least back then. Plus, SHIELD isn't exactly a squeaky clean organization period, so I doubt that there going to hold it against Hawkeye. They brought Black Widow in and she was an out and out villain in the past after all.

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Old 11-04-2013, 01:11 PM   #12
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If Hawkeye is guilty of committing a crime, then Selvig would be an accessory to those crimes and would be tried along side Hawkeye. Since we know Selvig is running around in Thor 2, I think it is safe to say Hawkeye and Selvig were cleared of any wrong doing.

Also, innocent by reason of insanity is a real thing and those who prove their insanity at the time of their crime are not held responsible for the crime. However, they would most likely be held in a psychiatric institution (almost a prison) until they are deemed sane and no longer a threat to society, however long that takes. Neither Hawkeye or Selvig would see actual jail time for their crimes.

I don't want people to hate me for the law stuff but I wanted to clarify the insanity stuff. Sorry.

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Old 11-04-2013, 01:19 PM   #13
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Yeah, the "drunk" analogy doesn't work at all. Ultimately, people CHOOSE to get drunk despite knowing the risk. Hawkeye didn't choose to have Loki mess with his head, it was forced upon him. Also, consuming alcohol has proven downsides, Loki's spear of mischief was an unknown element.

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Old 11-04-2013, 02:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

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SHIELD is an organization that recognizes the super-natural. I don't see them treating being possessed as being the same as drunk or stoned...at all. Hell, look at all the murder and destruction Hulk caused and they invited him on board anyways
Yeah, go ahead and tell me what "murder" Hulk caused in the movies. Hulk only targeted people --- almost invariably soldiers, mercenaries, and cops, i.e., trained professionals --- who tried to kill him; he didn't run around killing civilians. And *they* were the instigators of the violence, not Hulk. In Hawkeye's case, *he* was the bad guy who led unprovoked attacks on the Helicarrier and on a dinner party at a German museum. Huge difference behind the methodology in that, versus being a misunderstood monster on the lam from the army.

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Hawkeye is one of SHIELD's top agents. They're not going to kick him out just because he got mind-controlled by a God wielding a mystical McGuffin spear that NO ONE outside of Thor was prepared for or knew how to handle. Gods and aliens are outside of his skill set, at least back then. Plus, SHIELD isn't exactly a squeaky clean organization period, so I doubt that there going to hold it against Hawkeye. They brought Black Widow in and she was an out and out villain in the past after all.
If Hawkeye can get mind-controlled once to turn on his comrades, he can get mind-controlled again. That makes him a definite security risk. Nick Fury sure as hell isn't the kind of director who'd okay that. Hell, he kept Tony Stark out of the Avenger Initiative just for his attitude, for "not playing well with others"....you think he's going to let a guy who just murdered a bunch of SHIELD agents back into the organization, mind**** or no???

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If Hawkeye is guilty of committing a crime, then Selvig would be an accessory to those crimes and would be tried along side Hawkeye. Since we know Selvig is running around in Thor 2, I think it is safe to say Hawkeye and Selvig were cleared of any wrong doing.

Also, innocent by reason of insanity is a real thing and those who prove their insanity at the time of their crime are not held responsible for the crime. However, they would most likely be held in a psychiatric institution (almost a prison) until they are deemed sane and no longer a threat to society, however long that takes. Neither Hawkeye or Selvig would see actual jail time for their crimes.

I don't want people to hate me for the law stuff but I wanted to clarify the insanity stuff. Sorry.
Haven't seen it yet, but everything I've read says that Selvig *is* in a psychiatric institution in TDW. Yes? No?

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Old 11-04-2013, 02:01 PM   #15
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Hypnosis is actually a legal defense if you can prove you did not have the presence of mind to act.

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Old 11-04-2013, 02:18 PM   #16
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I have not seen TDW either but I know Selvig is running around unsupervised from the trailers we have seen. I have heard he is in a psychiatric ward but not the reason why, other than he is kinda loopy now. He could have been there of his own volition or by court order. I guess we will find out

I don't want to debate speculation. It's stupid and gets us nowhere fast.

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Old 11-04-2013, 02:45 PM   #17
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Yeah, go ahead and tell me what "murder" Hulk caused in the movies. Hulk only targeted people --- almost invariably soldiers, mercenaries, and cops, i.e., trained professionals --- who tried to kill him; he didn't run around killing civilians. And *they* were the instigators of the violence, not Hulk. In Hawkeye's case, *he* was the bad guy who led unprovoked attacks on the Helicarrier and on a dinner party at a German museum. Huge difference behind the methodology in that, versus being a misunderstood monster on the lam from the army.



If Hawkeye can get mind-controlled once to turn on his comrades, he can get mind-controlled again. That makes him a definite security risk. Nick Fury sure as hell isn't the kind of director who'd okay that. Hell, he kept Tony Stark out of the Avenger Initiative just for his attitude, for "not playing well with others"....you think he's going to let a guy who just murdered a bunch of SHIELD agents back into the organization, mind**** or no???



Haven't seen it yet, but everything I've read says that Selvig *is* in a psychiatric institution in TDW. Yes? No?
ANY of them could Potentially be mind-controlled. During that scene were they were at each other's throats on the Helicarrier, Loki was messing with ALL of their heads, including Fury. So, by that logic, NO ONE should work for SHIELD, including Fury, since they ALL have the POTENTIAL to be mind-controlled. Also, Fury let Black Widow, a former terrorist and cold-blooded murderer (not exactly the most trustworthy person in the world) join SHIELD, so clearly moral ambiguity isn't a issue for him. Also, Hawkeye WAS NOT a bad guy, that's just factually incorrect. He was put under mind control by the Norse God of Trickery who was wielding a device of extraordinary power that was given to him by freaking Thanos. He was loyal before he got mind-controlled and he was loyal AFTER he was freed. He even shot an arrow at Loki's face for goodness sake and seemed to relish the idea of Loki being punisher, if that smile at the end was any indication.

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Well, here's the thing about Hawkeye, and it's an easy out for the writers of just about any of the currently active Marvel projects:

Hawkeye killed a lot of SHIELD agents and nearly destroyed the Helicarrier.
Doesn't matter that he was under mind control at the time; that's like trying to plead innocence for committing a slew of heinous murders while you were stoned, drunk, and/or insane. In the view of the courts, he's still guilty as sin.

So a logical explanation would be that, even after playing hero at the Battle of New York, Hawkeye *would* have to stand trial for numerous murders committed in Stuttgart and on the Helicarrier. There'd be *some* leniency there, given the circumstances, and his "shot at redemption" as an Avenger would definitely be taken into consideration, but in the end, the court would have to find him guilty of at least some kind of lesser manslaughter charges.

Bottom line --- Hawkeye probably went to jail. He most definitely would've lost his "badge" and SHIELD security clearances, and SHIELD would surely consider him too much of a security risk to re-hire.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that, in AOU, the Avengers will either bail him out or flat-out jailbreak him to get him back onto the team.
For once, I actually agree with you. To me there's just too much suggesting Hawkeye won't be an Agent of SHIELD come Age of Ultron. First there's the fact he killed friends and co-workers and nearly took down the Helicarrier which is bad enough on it's own.

Second is he's the odd one out in the roster. The other five have/are all making appearances somewhere in Phase II, even Banner who doesn't have a movie. There's a chance he could cameo in Winter Soldier, but so far we've heard nothing on the Hawkeye front except for his big role in Age of Ultron.

Third, if the rumours and common fan beliefs are true then by the end of Cap 2 our heroes won't be a part of SHIELD anymore and would have gone underground. Hawkeye's friends/comrades/fellow Avengers. Would he stay with an organisation if they were hunting his friends, who he believes to be in the right?

Finally, as stated in my first point he had a God inside his head and forcing him to kill friends and endanger thousands more. That's going to psychologically **** him up. Would he still want to work for SHIELD after that? If I was him, I'd definitely take some time off or leave completely to think things through.

And I'd be right in saying that Hawkeye wasn't always a SHIELD agent in the comics, right? Was he at all in 616?

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:45 PM   #19
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Yeah, go ahead and tell me what "murder" Hulk caused in the movies. Hulk only targeted people --- almost invariably soldiers, mercenaries, and cops, i.e., trained professionals --- who tried to kill him; he didn't run around killing civilians. And *they* were the instigators of the violence, not Hulk. In Hawkeye's case, *he* was the bad guy who led unprovoked attacks on the Helicarrier and on a dinner party at a German museum. Huge difference behind the methodology in that, versus being a misunderstood monster on the lam from the army.



If Hawkeye can get mind-controlled once to turn on his comrades, he can get mind-controlled again. That makes him a definite security risk. Nick Fury sure as hell isn't the kind of director who'd okay that. Hell, he kept Tony Stark out of the Avenger Initiative just for his attitude, for "not playing well with others"....you think he's going to let a guy who just murdered a bunch of SHIELD agents back into the organization, mind**** or no???



Haven't seen it yet, but everything I've read says that Selvig *is* in a psychiatric institution in TDW. Yes? No?
A magical staff mind controlled him....as well as Selvig...and another SHIELD agent...dude, it wasn't hawkeye doing those things, it was Loki. Also Loki was at the Museum dinner party Hawkeye was somewhere else taking out security guards. And hulk still killed good guys. so if the cops try and arrest me I"m allowed to kill them with no consequences?

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Old 11-04-2013, 05:00 PM   #20
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For once, I actually agree with you. To me there's just too much suggesting Hawkeye won't be an Agent of SHIELD come Age of Ultron. First there's the fact he killed friends and co-workers and nearly took down the Helicarrier which is bad enough on it's own.

Second is he's the odd one out in the roster. The other five have/are all making appearances somewhere in Phase II, even Banner who doesn't have a movie. There's a chance he could cameo in Winter Soldier, but so far we've heard nothing on the Hawkeye front except for his big role in Age of Ultron.

Third, if the rumours and common fan beliefs are true then by the end of Cap 2 our heroes won't be a part of SHIELD anymore and would have gone underground. Hawkeye's friends/comrades/fellow Avengers. Would he stay with an organisation if they were hunting his friends, who he believes to be in the right?

Finally, as stated in my first point he had a God inside his head and forcing him to kill friends and endanger thousands more. That's going to psychologically **** him up. Would he still want to work for SHIELD after that? If I was him, I'd definitely take some time off or leave completely to think things through.

And I'd be right in saying that Hawkeye wasn't always a SHIELD agent in the comics, right? Was he at all in 616?
Personally, for reasons already stated, I think SHIELD would pardon him for the crimes committed by Loki's supernaturally induced command.

But I agree that it would make sense for him to want to take leave after such a thing. If Selvig is messed up due to being exposed to things the human mind isn't ready for, then Barton would be messed up from guilt and maybe also need a sort of soul searching to reaffirm his own independence (being that it was so violently ripped from him).

So I could see him just taking it easy at the beginning of AOU, with maybe a limited correspondence with SHIELD which allows him to hook back up when the team needs him, if they don't seek him out first.

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Old 11-04-2013, 11:16 PM   #21
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For once, I actually agree with you. To me there's just too much suggesting Hawkeye won't be an Agent of SHIELD come Age of Ultron. First there's the fact he killed friends and co-workers and nearly took down the Helicarrier which is bad enough on it's own.

Second is he's the odd one out in the roster. The other five have/are all making appearances somewhere in Phase II, even Banner who doesn't have a movie. There's a chance he could cameo in Winter Soldier, but so far we've heard nothing on the Hawkeye front except for his big role in Age of Ultron.

Third, if the rumours and common fan beliefs are true then by the end of Cap 2 our heroes won't be a part of SHIELD anymore and would have gone underground. Hawkeye's friends/comrades/fellow Avengers. Would he stay with an organisation if they were hunting his friends, who he believes to be in the right?

Finally, as stated in my first point he had a God inside his head and forcing him to kill friends and endanger thousands more. That's going to psychologically **** him up. Would he still want to work for SHIELD after that? If I was him, I'd definitely take some time off or leave completely to think things through.

And I'd be right in saying that Hawkeye wasn't always a SHIELD agent in the comics, right? Was he at all in 616?
No, Hawkeye didn't have a thing to do with SHIELD in 616; he was a circus trick-shot artist who became one of the Avengers For Avengers' Sake (like Giant-Man, Wasp, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Wonder Man and plenty of other Avengers who are known only for being Avengers, and not solo artists).

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A magical staff mind controlled him....as well as Selvig...and another SHIELD agent...dude, it wasn't hawkeye doing those things, it was Loki. Also Loki was at the Museum dinner party Hawkeye was somewhere else taking out security guards. And hulk still killed good guys. so if the cops try and arrest me I"m allowed to kill them with no consequences?

That depends....are those "cops" actually mercenaries armed to the teeth, who are trying their damnedest to kill you for crimes you didn't commit?

And yes, everyone here, including me, knows full well that Hawkeye was "under the influence." But that doesn't hold up as a legitimate excuse in a court of law. If you're "not in your right mind," for whatever reason --- drugs, booze, insanity, mental retardation, Norse god controlling your mind --- the court takes all that under consideration regarding the question of premeditation. That doesn't address the issue of the penalty for the actual killings at all, though. Again, the charges would probably be lowered to some form of manslaughter, and most certainly wouldn't be labeled Murder One; but there's not a court in the world where Hawkeye wouldn't do at least *a little* jail time for his crimes.

Mental hypnosis, like the insanity plea, *isn't* the "get out of jail free" that opponents like to paint it to be --- you still get sentenced, you still do hard time in a hardcore asylum (not some Dr. Drew Malibu rehab resort), and the shrinks won't play softball on you. They'll make damn sure your brain gets "fixed" before they even think about letting you back out into public.

And it would make a pretty cool scenario for Hawkeye in AOU, anyway. The Avengers leading an actual jailbreak to bust him out of the looney bin, and give him a chance to redeem himself to the world? What's not to like?

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Old 11-05-2013, 08:16 AM   #22
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
No, Hawkeye didn't have a thing to do with SHIELD in 616; he was a circus trick-shot artist who became one of the Avengers For Avengers' Sake (like Giant-Man, Wasp, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Wonder Man and plenty of other Avengers who are known only for being Avengers, and not solo artists).




That depends....are those "cops" actually mercenaries armed to the teeth, who are trying their damnedest to kill you for crimes you didn't commit?

And yes, everyone here, including me, knows full well that Hawkeye was "under the influence." But that doesn't hold up as a legitimate excuse in a court of law. If you're "not in your right mind," for whatever reason --- drugs, booze, insanity, mental retardation, Norse god controlling your mind --- the court takes all that under consideration regarding the question of premeditation. That doesn't address the issue of the penalty for the actual killings at all, though. Again, the charges would probably be lowered to some form of manslaughter, and most certainly wouldn't be labeled Murder One; but there's not a court in the world where Hawkeye wouldn't do at least *a little* jail time for his crimes.

Mental hypnosis, like the insanity plea, *isn't* the "get out of jail free" that opponents like to paint it to be --- you still get sentenced, you still do hard time in a hardcore asylum (not some Dr. Drew Malibu rehab resort), and the shrinks won't play softball on you. They'll make damn sure your brain gets "fixed" before they even think about letting you back out into public.

And it would make a pretty cool scenario for Hawkeye in AOU, anyway. The Avengers leading an actual jailbreak to bust him out of the looney bin, and give him a chance to redeem himself to the world? What's not to like?
Your analogy is wrong. This more like being roofied or drugged by someone rather than being drunk or mentally ill. If someone feed me a drugs which magically turns me into a psychotic murderer with no free will, I doubt I'd spend more than a day in jail. or be blamed for me actions

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Old 11-05-2013, 08:45 AM   #23
DrCosmic
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

So SHIELD will let one of their best agents save the world and then let him go to prison because he was mind controlled?

So a lawyer cannot convince a jury that someone who was doing their job and taken complete control of bears no responsibility in the subsequent killings?

Are there even prisons that can hold Hawkeye?

There's just too many ways Hawkeye doesn't end up doing hard jail time. If they do it that way, it's to prove a point, not because it's the natural story.

That said, Hawkeye did kill a lot of people. That's not someone anyone's going to feel comfortable walking down the hall with. Also, he's got a lot on his mind, maybe not as as bad a Selvig, but maybe worse.

What would be glorious? If he ended up retiring quietly and being a circus trick-shooter wearing his 616 costume.

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Old 11-05-2013, 09:29 AM   #24
Loki882
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
No, Hawkeye didn't have a thing to do with SHIELD in 616; he was a circus trick-shot artist who became one of the Avengers For Avengers' Sake (like Giant-Man, Wasp, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Wonder Man and plenty of other Avengers who are known only for being Avengers, and not solo artists).




That depends....are those "cops" actually mercenaries armed to the teeth, who are trying their damnedest to kill you for crimes you didn't commit?

And yes, everyone here, including me, knows full well that Hawkeye was "under the influence." But that doesn't hold up as a legitimate excuse in a court of law. If you're "not in your right mind," for whatever reason --- drugs, booze, insanity, mental retardation, Norse god controlling your mind --- the court takes all that under consideration regarding the question of premeditation. That doesn't address the issue of the penalty for the actual killings at all, though. Again, the charges would probably be lowered to some form of manslaughter, and most certainly wouldn't be labeled Murder One; but there's not a court in the world where Hawkeye wouldn't do at least *a little* jail time for his crimes.

Mental hypnosis, like the insanity plea, *isn't* the "get out of jail free" that opponents like to paint it to be --- you still get sentenced, you still do hard time in a hardcore asylum (not some Dr. Drew Malibu rehab resort), and the shrinks won't play softball on you. They'll make damn sure your brain gets "fixed" before they even think about letting you back out into public.

And it would make a pretty cool scenario for Hawkeye in AOU, anyway. The Avengers leading an actual jailbreak to bust him out of the looney bin, and give him a chance to redeem himself to the world? What's not to like?
YES, it IS a justification in a court of law. What happened to Hawkeye is not even REMOTELY the same as drinking, or doing drugs, or anything like that. To argue that the situations are even mildly similar is ludicrous. Hawkeye WASN'T mentally ill, he was under mind control. He was perfectly fine after the mind control was removed. Captain America immediately accepted him into the group when Black Widow indicated that he was fine. Also, he wasn't "under the influence" he was under complete mind control by a freaking God wielding a cosmic force of unlimited power. Let me repeat, it's not the same as those other things that you mentioned, AT ALL!!

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Old 11-05-2013, 02:27 PM   #25
cherokeesam
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Default Re: Will Hawkeye Still be a Part of SHIELD in AoU?

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
So SHIELD will let one of their best agents save the world and then let him go to prison because he was mind controlled?

So a lawyer cannot convince a jury that someone who was doing their job and taken complete control of bears no responsibility in the subsequent killings?

Are there even prisons that can hold Hawkeye?

There's just too many ways Hawkeye doesn't end up doing hard jail time. If they do it that way, it's to prove a point, not because it's the natural story.

That said, Hawkeye did kill a lot of people. That's not someone anyone's going to feel comfortable walking down the hall with. Also, he's got a lot on his mind, maybe not as as bad a Selvig, but maybe worse.

What would be glorious? If he ended up retiring quietly and being a circus trick-shooter wearing his 616 costume.
....You know....I really, really like this idea.
Maybe the circus part would be outdated in today's world, but Clint could, I dunno, have a reality TV show about bowhunting and trick shots to show off his expertise.

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Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
YES, it IS a justification in a court of law. What happened to Hawkeye is not even REMOTELY the same as drinking, or doing drugs, or anything like that. To argue that the situations are even mildly similar is ludicrous. Hawkeye WASN'T mentally ill, he was under mind control. He was perfectly fine after the mind control was removed. Captain America immediately accepted him into the group when Black Widow indicated that he was fine. Also, he wasn't "under the influence" he was under complete mind control by a freaking God wielding a cosmic force of unlimited power. Let me repeat, it's not the same as those other things that you mentioned, AT ALL!!
Yes, dear. We, as an audience, know exactly what happened, and that it's not Hawkeye's fault. In the filmic world, Hawkeye and his lawyers would have one HELL of a hard time convincing a judge and/or jury to swallow such an argument. The DA would demand proof of these phantasmagorical claims of magic and mind control, and would get none. Yes, Loki's a god, yadda yadda, yes, the Cube yadda yadda. None of those powers have been defined or proven or understood in a court of law, or by science, or by laypeople. The DA could easily ask Hawkeye and Selvig why Nick Fury wasn't possessed, nor any of the rest of the SHIELD agents inside the JDEM lab, nor any of the Avengers.

The burden of proof would be on Hawkeye to show that he wasn't in control of his faculties, and the only ball in his legal court is Selvig, who is now madder than a hatter, and whose evidence and testimony would be thrown out as wholly inadmissible.

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