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Old 11-04-2013, 06:33 PM   #976
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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I expect to see a more classic look for Iron Man, but I would also like love to see some of those great designs from the third act of Iron Man Three. I remember watching a lot of awesome Mark armours that weren't even shown at that battle.
Heartbreaker and Gemini especially. Those were such iconic looking armors yet were barely even shown.

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Old 11-04-2013, 07:23 PM   #977
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The Gemini suit was BAWSE. So sad it barely got shown.

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Old 11-04-2013, 07:39 PM   #978
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That was supposed to be some kind of 'space' suit, right?

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Old 11-04-2013, 07:51 PM   #979
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Yeah, but I think it was described as "sub-orbital", so maybe at best it could be used to reach and interface with satellites? Maybe also designed in case a shuttle has a critical failure when leaving or re-entering the atmosphere? A lot of his paranoia suits seemed to be themed around rescuing people in particular situations.

Regardless, I'd like a scene in AOU where they do need something technical done in space, and Stark volunteers and pulls out an improved Gemini for the job. Could almost be like a reaffirmation of his conquest over his fears, especially if some kind of wormhole is involved. :P

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Old 11-04-2013, 07:54 PM   #980
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Well... as the Cinematic Universe is getting more 'cosmical' as we move along, I bet a space suit will come in handy soon.

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Old 11-04-2013, 09:22 PM   #981
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Honestly I don't think they need to kill an Avenger in the AoU they can easily get good drama without having to ice someone.

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Old 11-04-2013, 11:08 PM   #982
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

"death, death, and more death"...someone is going to die

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Old 11-04-2013, 11:52 PM   #983
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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But once again, we had that exact scene in Avengers when Iron Man went into the wormhole (remember "Stark, you know that is a one way trip?"). Having Stark do this again treads the same ground we already covered, regardless if they actually leave him dead this time.
That is a bit reminiscent. One the other hand, all of the major Avengers have had dying scenes. On the other other hand, none of the others have had one in Avengers. One the hand from before, having the team actually kill him and he stay dead is new ground. One the other? hand, Stark really does have to be there for A3, and he's kinda difficult to bring back.

So... maybe not Stark, I'd still keep the team-has-to-beat-him-within-an-inch-of-his-life thing, but the death part just doesn't have the same punch.

Now, Cap, he actually needs to die in order to set up for Fallen Son/Rebirth of Cap in Cap 3 to bring the Time Gem thing to Thanos. It could be done near the onset of Cap 3, but as a clincher or denouement for Avengers 2 it works, especially if Ultron is specifically taking out the Avengers, cutting off their leader to weaken them so that they cannot rally. It makes Ultron look smart and Cap look important, when they cannot function without his leadership, so when he returns to form in Avengers 3 it's like "ASSEMBLE!!!!!"

And then you kill Thor too.

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Old 11-05-2013, 12:17 AM   #984
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Black Widow could die. She has stolen Sharon Carter's role in Winter Soldier, so her death would lead to a bigger role for Sharon in Cap 3. Her death would open a spot for new superheroines in Avengers 3.

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Old 11-05-2013, 12:26 AM   #985
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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But once again, we had that exact scene in Avengers when Iron Man went into the wormhole (remember "Stark, you know that is a one way trip?"). Having Stark do this again treads the same ground we already covered, regardless if they actually leave him dead this time.
The Avengers scene doesn't even remotely resemble what Dr. Cosmic is describing (which is pretty much what I was describing for an Iron Man "death" scene, too). The Avengers scene featured Iron Man, in complete control of his faculties, whisking a nuke through a wormhole and racing against time (a few seconds, that's all) to get back through before Black Widow closes the gate. The hypothetical AOU scenario involves Ultron literally taking Tony Stark and Iron Man over and, apparently, killing him outright, or taking over his mind and body as the case may be, and then leaving his ultimate fate in some doubt for a 3-year cliffhanger.

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Old 11-05-2013, 12:29 AM   #986
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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That is a bit reminiscent. One the other hand, all of the major Avengers have had dying scenes. On the other other hand, none of the others have had one in Avengers. One the hand from before, having the team actually kill him and he stay dead is new ground. One the other? hand, Stark really does have to be there for A3, and he's kinda difficult to bring back.

So... maybe not Stark, I'd still keep the team-has-to-beat-him-within-an-inch-of-his-life thing, but the death part just doesn't have the same punch.

Now, Cap, he actually needs to die in order to set up for Fallen Son/Rebirth of Cap in Cap 3 to bring the Time Gem thing to Thanos. It could be done near the onset of Cap 3, but as a clincher or denouement for Avengers 2 it works, especially if Ultron is specifically taking out the Avengers, cutting off their leader to weaken them so that they cannot rally. It makes Ultron look smart and Cap look important, when they cannot function without his leadership, so when he returns to form in Avengers 3 it's like "ASSEMBLE!!!!!"

And then you kill Thor too.
dude, how many arms do you have?

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Old 11-05-2013, 02:59 AM   #987
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

What's this I'm hearing that Jeremy Renner isn't going to be in Avengers 2?

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Old 11-05-2013, 08:45 AM   #988
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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The Avengers scene doesn't even remotely resemble what Dr. Cosmic is describing (which is pretty much what I was describing for an Iron Man "death" scene, too). The Avengers scene featured Iron Man, in complete control of his faculties, whisking a nuke through a wormhole and racing against time (a few seconds, that's all) to get back through before Black Widow closes the gate. The hypothetical AOU scenario involves Ultron literally taking Tony Stark and Iron Man over and, apparently, killing him outright, or taking over his mind and body as the case may be, and then leaving his ultimate fate in some doubt for a 3-year cliffhanger.
I don't think Joss would ever do this he has gone on record saying a movie needs to be a complete experience. He's said he didn't like the ending to Empire Strikes Back specifically cause it was a come back in 3 years type of ending.

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Old 11-05-2013, 08:51 AM   #989
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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I don't think Joss would ever do this he has gone on record saying a movie needs to be a complete experience. He's said he didn't like the ending to Empire Strikes Back specifically cause it was a come back in 3 years type of ending.
I know. But things change when you're handed a multibillion-dollar franchise. Marvel and Joss have got the hook in; now they've got to keep the audience on the line and not let 'em get away. Doing the Same Ole-Same Ole may not be the best strategy for that; so Joss may have re-examined his view of cliffhangers regarding the Avengers series.

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Old 11-05-2013, 09:03 AM   #990
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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That is a bit reminiscent. One the other hand, all of the major Avengers have had dying scenes. On the other other hand, none of the others have had one in Avengers. One the hand from before, having the team actually kill him and he stay dead is new ground. One the other? hand, Stark really does have to be there for A3, and he's kinda difficult to bring back.

So... maybe not Stark, I'd still keep the team-has-to-beat-him-within-an-inch-of-his-life thing, but the death part just doesn't have the same punch.

Now, Cap, he actually needs to die in order to set up for Fallen Son/Rebirth of Cap in Cap 3 to bring the Time Gem thing to Thanos. It could be done near the onset of Cap 3, but as a clincher or denouement for Avengers 2 it works, especially if Ultron is specifically taking out the Avengers, cutting off their leader to weaken them so that they cannot rally. It makes Ultron look smart and Cap look important, when they cannot function without his leadership, so when he returns to form in Avengers 3 it's like "ASSEMBLE!!!!!"

And then you kill Thor too.
I think Fallen Son for Cap 3 is a TERRIBLE idea.

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The Avengers scene doesn't even remotely resemble what Dr. Cosmic is describing (which is pretty much what I was describing for an Iron Man "death" scene, too). The Avengers scene featured Iron Man, in complete control of his faculties, whisking a nuke through a wormhole and racing against time (a few seconds, that's all) to get back through before Black Widow closes the gate. The hypothetical AOU scenario involves Ultron literally taking Tony Stark and Iron Man over and, apparently, killing him outright, or taking over his mind and body as the case may be, and then leaving his ultimate fate in some doubt for a 3-year cliffhanger.
So, in Avengers, he apparently heroically sacrificed himself to save everyone and was thought to be dead shortly. While in that scene...he heroically sacrifices himself and everyone thinks he is dead slightly longer.

Sorry, the scene is still effectively the same. Only difference is the clffhanger angle. Also, what is more interesting: killing Stark at Ultron's hands or forcing him to live with the knowledge he created a monster? Sorry, but keeping Stark alive and knowing what happened is much more interesting from a writer's perspective.

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Old 11-05-2013, 09:12 AM   #991
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What's this I'm hearing that Jeremy Renner isn't going to be in Avengers 2?
rubbish

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Old 11-05-2013, 09:27 AM   #992
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I think Fallen Son for Cap 3 is a TERRIBLE idea.
I agree that Fallen Son by itself would be a terrible idea, but Fallen Son with Return of Captain America? How could that possibly be a terrible idea?


Quote:
So, in Avengers, he apparently heroically sacrificed himself to save everyone and was thought to be dead shortly. While in that scene...he heroically sacrifices himself and everyone thinks he is dead slightly longer.

Sorry, the scene is still effectively the same. Only difference is the clffhanger angle. Also, what is more interesting: killing Stark at Ultron's hands or forcing him to live with the knowledge he created a monster? Sorry, but keeping Stark alive and knowing what happened is much more interesting from a writer's perspective.
I don't know about him sacrificing himself, I think it would be much more interesting if his friends and teammates had to destroy him, or in this case, nearly destroy him. You still get all the 'what have I done' as Tony sees what Ultron does from the first person perspective and is powerless to stop it.The payoff for the guilt in Avengers 3 is minimal. Tony goes into retirement like Pym and they have to shake him/wake him up in Avengers 3 to get him back in the game.

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Black Widow could die. She has stolen Sharon Carter's role in Winter Soldier, so her death would lead to a bigger role for Sharon in Cap 3. Her death would open a spot for new superheroines in Avengers 3.
They're not going to kill the only superheroine, and Joss doesn't have a one-superheroine rule that killing one would make room for another one. Also, BW doensn't need to die to be in Cap 3, she just needs to fall out with Cap, which is much more interesting than her dying.

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dude, how many arms do you have?
Enough to lose track?

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Old 11-05-2013, 09:41 AM   #993
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What's this I'm hearing that Jeremy Renner isn't going to be in Avengers 2?
Whedon has said he is expanding Hawkeye's role and fleshing out his character in Avengers 2.

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Old 11-05-2013, 10:22 AM   #994
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In all honesty, killing off characters (especially leads) has become cliched. It was novel when G.R.R. Martin did it in ASOIF and when Whedon did it in his earlier films, but with all of the imitative media that has filled the void, it has become even more generic than the mustache twiling maniac who has the female lead pinned to the tracks in front of an incoming train.

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Old 11-05-2013, 10:23 AM   #995
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Black Widow could die. She has stolen Sharon Carter's role in Winter Soldier, so her death would lead to a bigger role for Sharon in Cap 3. Her death would open a spot for new superheroines in Avengers 3.
Kill off a female superheroine just so you can bring in new superheroines, yeah no. If the only way that they can think of the bring in more female is to kill off the old ones, then they need to rethink their strategy.

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Old 11-05-2013, 10:30 AM   #996
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Kill off a female superheroine just so you can bring in new superheroines, yeah no. If the only way that they can think of the bring in more female is to kill off the old ones, then they need to rethink their strategy.
Agreed

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Old 11-05-2013, 10:57 AM   #997
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I agree that Fallen Son by itself would be a terrible idea, but Fallen Son with Return of Captain America? How could that possibly be a terrible idea?
Because there are far more interesting storylines to go with than the Death and Return of Captain America. Remember, in MCU timeline, Cap has been back for not all that long. Fallen Son happened after YEARS. Why kill Cap off a good portion of the movie so soon into the franchise? I'd much rather see them do something else in Cap 3, and give Evans a satisfactory concluding solo-film for his run on Steve Rogers than see him replaced by Bucky for a majority of the movie.


Quote:
I don't know about him sacrificing himself, I think it would be much more interesting if his friends and teammates had to destroy him, or in this case, nearly destroy him. You still get all the 'what have I done' as Tony sees what Ultron does from the first person perspective and is powerless to stop it.The payoff for the guilt in Avengers 3 is minimal. Tony goes into retirement like Pym and they have to shake him/wake him up in Avengers 3 to get him back in the game.
I think that is a far more interesting arc for Tony's character than making audiences think he is dead only to come back at some key moment in A3. You see things like that done in TV and such all the time. I'd rather see good character writing than something like that.

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Old 11-05-2013, 11:44 AM   #998
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Because there are far more interesting storylines to go with than the Death and Return of Captain America. Remember, in MCU timeline, Cap has been back for not all that long. Fallen Son happened after YEARS. Why kill Cap off a good portion of the movie so soon into the franchise? I'd much rather see them do something else in Cap 3, and give Evans a satisfactory concluding solo-film for his run on Steve Rogers than see him replaced by Bucky for a majority of the movie.




I think that is a far more interesting arc for Tony's character than making audiences think he is dead only to come back at some key moment in A3. You see things like that done in TV and such all the time. I'd rather see good character writing than something like that.
I don't find watching RDJ getting all weepy about being responsible for a genocidal killer robot to be interesting or "good character writing," either.

I'd personally rather see Marvel make their most daring move yet by cooking their golden goose (at least for a 2-3 year interval) and letting the rest of the team learn how to stand at the box office on their own merits, instead of perpetually making the MCU "Iron Man and His Amazing Friends."

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Old 11-05-2013, 12:10 PM   #999
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Because there are far more interesting storylines to go with than the Death and Return of Captain America. Remember, in MCU timeline, Cap has been back for not all that long. Fallen Son happened after YEARS. Why kill Cap off a good portion of the movie so soon into the franchise? I'd much rather see them do something else in Cap 3, and give Evans a satisfactory concluding solo-film for his run on Steve Rogers than see him replaced by Bucky for a majority of the movie.
Give me some examples of these more interesting storylines, keeping in mind that all of them happened after YEARS, Winter Soldier included. Cap's other great storylines like Captain America No More are too much like what's already been done, plus they don't help tie into anything Thanos related. So I'm not sure they're better ideas necessarily.

But I agree that Cap shouldn't be "killed off" for a majority of the film. That's why doing Return and Fallen Son simultaneously is such a great idea, because Steve is an active in the entire story, he's just doing it from random points in the past. He may be killed, but he's not "off" in any way shape or form. This has the added bonus of giving a heavy in depth history to a character that doesn't actually have it in the movie-verse. It's more than satisfying to see Steve Rogers be an epic military hero for the ages with a long history-filled history of excellence and strategy and demonstrate that on screen in order to win the day.

Quote:
I think that is a far more interesting arc for Tony's character than making audiences think he is dead only to come back at some key moment in A3. You see things like that done in TV and such all the time. I'd rather see good character writing than something like that.
I agree. Having him actually die, or a death cliffhanger is a bad idea because it's too close to what's been done before with the character.

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Old 11-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #1000
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Whedon has said he is expanding Hawkeye's role and fleshing out his character in Avengers 2.
I went to an AoU panel, and they never even mentioned Renner. Recast?

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