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Old 11-05-2013, 01:07 PM   #76
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Batman Begins was actually a more happy and uplifting film than Man Of Steel.
It was. BB clearly established Batman as a hero. Batman knew early in the film he would be Gotham's savior. And he had a clear plan. And wanted to involved the right people. (Gordon, Fox)

In MOS, Kal had no clue who he was or what he was trying to do. He wasnt trying to be a hero. He knew he was the only one that can do anything about it.

Left a mess of things. But he did it. In the coming sequels we'll just have to see how comes out of it.

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Old 11-05-2013, 01:49 PM   #77
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Clark was a hero before he got the suit and later became Superman at the end. He wanted to help people, but had to hide his true identity, explaining why he was a drifter with all of those aliases.

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Old 11-06-2013, 02:47 AM   #78
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Clark was a hero before he got the suit and later became Superman at the end. He wanted to help people, but had to hide his true identity, explaining why he was a drifter with all of those aliases.
Indeed. Notably saving the lives of the would be bus drowning victims as a youngster and saving people on the oil rig as a man. What I also admire about the MOS Clark is his restraint. Bullied as a boy and holding back his urge to bash the living hell out of the aggressor, also at the diner, taking it out on his truck.

What did people think of Clark not learning to fly until the scene in the movie? I didn’t mind. Doubt it's a reference, but I recall a scene in All Star Batman and Robin where Superman sprints across the water, not yet knowing he can fly.

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Old 11-06-2013, 02:55 AM   #79
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When I watched MOS in theater, it left me joyless and cold.

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Old 11-06-2013, 11:39 AM   #80
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

When I left the theatre I felt I had seen an epic telling of Superman's story that had the power of a biblical or mythical legend brought to life. This brought me great joy. To each their own though.

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Old 11-07-2013, 11:41 PM   #81
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i think many people just miss the simpler saving deed. you know like catching the thugs, helping a cat at the tree and perhaps fighting some terrorists or natural disaster.

the first movie, and we are having so much bangs and bams, it is a bit too shocking and violent to some.

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Old 11-08-2013, 02:28 AM   #82
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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The problem that most people seem to have (and I'm not saying you alone) is thinking "We can't have the DONNER Superman today!That Chris Reeve was a nice guy and all,but nobody would buy him today."

But let me tell you where it's at kids: The 70's were (if possible) even more cynical than today.Even Reeve said at the time people can't help but smirk at the line "Truth,Justice & The American Way" but he still says it convincingly. Because Superman is supposed to stand for optimism,even in the most bleak and cynical times.He's the ideal that we strive to follow.

Instead the "modern" Superman has to be brought down to our level.Look!He's as depressed and moody as I am! Hooray!

I don't necessarily feel I should identify with Superman as I should admire him.

It's something that Kevin Smith has brought up.In the same way most modern films approach Jesus.I don't want to see Jesus as the guy next door,brought down to my pitiful level.That's not who He was,so that's not what I want to see.Superman is similar in that respect.He's not defined by what he can't do,but by what he can do.And it's much more than any of us can,that's for sure.
Here's a response to some of the stuff you said.

Dude, just in case I forgot to mention it in my earlier post, I LOVED the Chris Reeve Superman films, including Quest for Peace, which is almost universally despised. I saw SM TM in 1978, and came out feeling like I could fly ( I was 8).

Saw MOS in 2013, had the same feeling. LOVED IT ! To reiterate, it ain't 1978 anymore.
I still love the Chris Reeve films, but if I was seeing them for the first time,
I'd certainly question a lot of stuff about it, particularly the ending
-possibly the lamest superhero ending ever, he flies around the world and
turns back time (which wouldn't actually fix the problems).

First, you don't want Jesus as the guy next door ? Fair enough.
Your beliefs are your own, and I respect them.

Personally, I do, because if Jesus can be just a guy like me with real
hopes and fears, then maybe I too can do something worthwhile with my life that can change the world.

Superman, same deal. I love that he's a guy who grew wondering where he came from, not fitting in and really struggling to find himself. In fact, coming from humble beginnings like that make it more believable that once he learns to accept his great power, that he'll stay the good guy that he was brought up to be (if anything he's a poster boy for good parenting).

Maybe then, if I ever have great power in my hands I'll be inspired to use it to benefit the world, rather than for my own selfish desires.

tell ya, my favourite scenes in MOS are

1) flight: because that's when Clark accepts that he's kind of a demi-god and is okay with it, and even that isn't easy.

2) "you're the answer son." because the reason Superman feels empathy for people is because he was brought up parents who loved him.

3) the big smile on Cav-El's face when he tells his mom "I found 'em. My parents, My people, I know where I come from."

And I loved the mayhem and destruction and the all the ass-kicking too. About damn time
Superman threw a PUNCH !!!!! for those of you not familiar with the comic book paradigm,
Superman's number one move when some menace threatening earth is ......PUNCHING.
Darkseid shows up, threatens to turn us all into slaves, or puddles of goo, or both and
POW ! Superman punches his stony-faced-ass back to the firepits. Why that hasn't translated into the movies, and people are weirded out when Supes punches Zod across the sky ? I just don't know.

This next bit I'm putting a spoiler tag on. If you are a Christian you might not want to keep reading. I respect your faith, and your entitlement to believe in Christ the redeemer. But, I wasn't the one who brought up the Superman
vs. Jesus comparison. However, I feel I still have to address it.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


Interesting the Superman vs Jesus comparisons. I think that's dangerous territory, because someone might make an argument that goes like this...

.... lets proceed from the assumption that both characters actually existed
in the same world (Jesus and Superman ) - I'm not saying Jesus didn't exist,
there's apparently historical proof, and of course that Superman doesn't exist
but IF they both did.....

On one hand we have Superman
1) He selflessly uses his great power for the benefit of others, not himself, and saves the world from alien invaders bent on genocide. If you want to admire Superman, admire him for having the power to do something, and then doing it -because a lot of people, who have a lot of power to make changes in the world, don't.

And then there's Jesus
2) You can argue that Jesus made a much more long lasting contribution, because he healed a few people, but more because he said lots of important stuff, got killed -and apparently rose from the dead.

And in that important stuff he said, which was written down after he died,
there was a lot about hope and comfort and being good to other people.

And there were lots of rules for people on how to live and what to think, and what was good and right, which somehow encouraged people to build churches to him, and carry out atrocities and wars in his name, and Kill other followers of his due to minor differences in interpretations of how people wrote down stuff he said (centuries after his death).
And, set up some people as leaders who commit abuses against children, discriminate against women, gays and anyone else they felt should be marginalized. Gather wealth, yet constantly appeal to the poorest of the poor to help them financially.......can you see where this is going.


So we've got Superman saving the world with his hands, and not telling anyone how to live or what to think, and then we've got Jesus, saying important stuff, getting killed and coming back to life, and his words living on and arguably doing as much harm as good.

Who's a better messiah ?

people might say Jesus, because somebody told them he saved their souls, by being crucified, and that God (who I actually believe in, not kidding) sent his son (an aspect of himself) to one of the most backward places in the world, 2000 years ago, kept him around for 33 years, let him die in agony and hasn't bothered to show up in person since then.

People believe this, not because of any extrinsic evidence or proof, but they believe it because they were told to believe it, and that a lot of other people believed it too.

By the way, the reward for believing this is that there's a life after life now, in which everything is good and fair, and the way it should be.

So it's okay to be subservient to the wealthy and powerful and suffer injustice in this life, because in the next life it'll all be better. Think critically about how things work in the real world, usually when something's too good to be true, it is (have a look at who tells us these things, and the underlying power structures that these promises maintain).

And then there's Superman....

(remember we're pretending he exists) someone who goes around making a tangible difference on a daily basis, not telling anyone what to do or what to believe, but just helping out, in the here and now or promising a better life if we do what he tells us. (BTW if you want to see what happens if Superman starts acting like Jesus, read Red Son, by Mark Millar).

In fact, I was deeply touched by the concept of Superman IV, arguably his worst film (although I loathed Superman Returns many times more than SM IV). A child writes to Superman, a prayer, save our planet from mutually assured destruction. What does he do ? He gets off his ass, and eliminates nuclear weapons.....until the wealthy and powerful find a way to stop him, and he has to resign himself not to interfering in human political affairs, and go back to trying to make the world a better place in ways humans can't **** up.

Again, which messiah is preferable ?


Anyway, this is just an argument. If people can't deal with arguments about faith, or can't critique their beliefs, then they can't be that strong.
Believing what they believe, because they believe it is circular logic - people who think like this are not using their intellect (which is odd, if they believe God gave it to them, what was if for ? ).
On the other hand, believing what they believe because they have really thought it through and made a choice, well hey, fair enough.





and that's why it's tricky comparing Superman to Jesus. An interesting stretch of the word Saviour.

Regardless, I'll take down-to-earth Jesus, and down-to-earth-Budweiser-drinking-football-watching-chest-hair sporting- doing-the-dishes-always-good-to-his-mom-working-minimum-wage and manual-labour-jobs-riding-a-bike-to-work-wears-blue jeans-Clark Kent
thanks very, because I'm human, and I like my heroes to have flaws, just like me.

Peace out Super-fans.


Last edited by Batmannerism; 11-08-2013 at 02:58 AM. Reason: trying to avoid offending people.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:38 AM   #83
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Indeed. Notably saving the lives of the would be bus drowning victims as a youngster and saving people on the oil rig as a man.
There is one moment in MOS, when Clark's sat in the truck with Jonathon and they are arguing because Clark wants to do more than just be a farmer (which Jonathon finds offensive, obviously).

And that's a moment I treasure, because it shows Clark actually does WANT to be more than just hiding away keeping his head down.

Other than that, his heroics only come about when things happen right in front of his nose.

Unlike many other interpretations of Superman and other Superheroes, this one does not pro actively look for ways to help people, either with his powers or with his profession (journalism i.e. Birthright).

His life seems to be focused on a) hiding and b) finding out where he's from.

A lot of us, before the film came out, talked a lot about this as well.

The whole 'I really hope it's not like Earth One and he only becomes a hero because he had too'.

Now I'm not saying that in MOS he showed anywhere near the reluctance of Earth One. I think they definitely did a great job of Cavill seeming so much more free and at peace once he was seen in the suit and people knew him for who/what he was (despite it being under extreme circumstances).

But i'm definitely looking forward to more pro active heroism in the sequel, from both his personas

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Old 11-08-2013, 03:05 AM   #84
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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There is one moment in MOS, when Clark's sat in the truck with Jonathon and they are arguing because Clark wants to do more than just be a farmer (which Jonathon finds offensive, obviously).

And that's a moment I treasure, because it shows Clark actually does WANT to be more than just hiding away keeping his head down.

Other than that, his heroics only come about when things happen right in front of his nose.

Unlike many other interpretations of Superman and other Superheroes, this one does not pro actively look for ways to help people, either with his powers or with his profession (journalism i.e. Birthright).

His life seems to be focused on a) hiding and b) finding out where he's from.

A lot of us, before the film came out, talked a lot about this as well.

The whole 'I really hope it's not like Earth One and he only becomes a hero because he had too'.

Now I'm not saying that in MOS he showed anywhere near the reluctance of Earth One. I think they definitely did a great job of Cavill seeming so much more free and at peace once he was seen in the suit and people knew him for who/what he was (despite it being under extreme circumstances).

But i'm definitely looking forward to more pro active heroism in the sequel, from both his personas
Hopeful clear your inbox!

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Old 11-08-2013, 03:45 AM   #85
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It's funny to notice so many similar stuff as when fans were analyzing/criticizing Superman Returns. Being too dark and depressed was also one of the main criticisms of SR, as was making too many references to Donner movies, which catches my attention since MoS took quite some things from those movies as well (like the overall Krypton-too-Earth Zod's revenge story arc or the S as a Kryptonian symbol).

What killed the movie for me were two things: Firstly, Pa Kent's death. Well, maybe not his death but whatever the writers and directors wanted to say with that. To me it was more shocking than the sense it made. And Clark letting him die was even more unreasonable. Apparently, Pa Kent wanted to stop Clark from saving people. He voluntarily died and Clark went on to... yes, save people. It was never clear what was that about, why Clark didn't do a thing and why, apparently, that death had no effect in Clark's decision.

The other thing is, as some people as hopefuldreamer have mentioned, Superman's heroism. Or at least what the people's perception of him was. Why he is called "Superman." All what people of the earth saw - at least 99.9% of them - was an alien invasion. That's it. And one of the Kryptonians was good and saved people. But never in the movie the world sees this man that's superior to any other man. Because in fact they saw a whole bunch of them. Superman didn't get the chance to be a super-man because he was just one of all the super-men that invaded earth.

I don't mind Superman killing. But it would have been great if his aversion to killing was well established before him killing Zod. Naturally, that way the scene would have gathered more importance.

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Old 11-08-2013, 08:55 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer View Post
There is one moment in MOS, when Clark's sat in the truck with Jonathon and they are arguing because Clark wants to do more than just be a farmer (which Jonathon finds offensive, obviously).

And that's a moment I treasure, because it shows Clark actually does WANT to be more than just hiding away keeping his head down.

Other than that, his heroics only come about when things happen right in front of his nose.

Unlike many other interpretations of Superman and other Superheroes, this one does not pro actively look for ways to help people, either with his powers or with his profession (journalism i.e. Birthright).

His life seems to be focused on a) hiding and b) finding out where he's from.

A lot of us, before the film came out, talked a lot about this as well.

The whole 'I really hope it's not like Earth One and he only becomes a hero because he had too'.

Now I'm not saying that in MOS he showed anywhere near the reluctance of Earth One. I think they definitely did a great job of Cavill seeming so much more free and at peace once he was seen in the suit and people knew him for who/what he was (despite it being under extreme circumstances).

But i'm definitely looking forward to more pro active heroism in the sequel, from both his personas
That what I love about the movie. It's a slower process. As oppose to the first Thor film where he solved his answers in one film.

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Old 11-08-2013, 09:12 AM   #87
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It's funny to notice so many similar stuff as when fans were analyzing/criticizing Superman Returns. Being too dark and depressed was also one of the main criticisms of SR, as was making too many references to Donner movies, which catches my attention since MoS took quite some things from those movies as well (like the overall Krypton-too-Earth Zod's revenge story arc or the S as a Kryptonian symbol).

What killed the movie for me were two things: Firstly, Pa Kent's death. Well, maybe not his death but whatever the writers and directors wanted to say with that. To me it was more shocking than the sense it made. And Clark letting him die was even more unreasonable. Apparently, Pa Kent wanted to stop Clark from saving people. He voluntarily died and Clark went on to... yes, save people. It was never clear what was that about, why Clark didn't do a thing and why, apparently, that death had no effect in Clark's decision.

The other thing is, as some people as hopefuldreamer have mentioned, Superman's heroism. Or at least what the people's perception of him was. Why he is called "Superman." All what people of the earth saw - at least 99.9% of them - was an alien invasion. That's it. And one of the Kryptonians was good and saved people. But never in the movie the world sees this man that's superior to any other man. Because in fact they saw a whole bunch of them. Superman didn't get the chance to be a super-man because he was just one of all the super-men that invaded earth.

I don't mind Superman killing. But it would have been great if his aversion to killing was well established before him killing Zod. Naturally, that way the scene would have gathered more importance.

I agree with with Pa Kent dying. Its very unreasonable the Clark didnt save him. That whole idea shouldnt have existed. I dont think Pa Kent should have died at all. Maybe in the second film. I dont think Pa Kent's death does anything significant to Superman's legacy.


As opposed to being Superman, he's not. Not yet. And listening to interviews they never say Superman. They call him Kal. Snyder, Cavill, Shannon, Goyer, never said Superman.

I dont think we should get hung up on him not being Superman because they were other super-men there. Its really just a name given to him for reference since Kal never gives him a name to go by.

They could have easily called Zod Super-D-bag and Faora SuperB---- for reference.

In MOS, Zod wasnt out for revenge. And Returns he was mopey over a girl. Very extreme adolescent drama. MOS was dark and with sad moments but they more in the Batman Begins direction as opposed to SR.

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Old 11-08-2013, 09:21 AM   #88
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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The problem that most people seem to have (and I'm not saying you alone) is thinking "We can't have the DONNER Superman today!That Chris Reeve was a nice guy and all,but nobody would buy him today."

But let me tell you where it's at kids: The 70's were (if possible) even more cynical than today.Even Reeve said at the time people can't help but smirk at the line "Truth,Justice & The American Way" but he still says it convincingly. Because Superman is supposed to stand for optimism,even in the most bleak and cynical times.He's the ideal that we strive to follow.

Instead the "modern" Superman has to be brought down to our level.Look!He's as depressed and moody as I am! Hooray!

I don't necessarily feel I should identify with Superman as I should admire him.

It's something that Kevin Smith has brought up.In the same way most modern films approach Jesus.I don't want to see Jesus as the guy next door,brought down to my pitiful level.That's not who He was,so that's not what I want to see.Superman is similar in that respect.He's not defined by what he can't do,but by what he can do.And it's much more than any of us can,that's for sure.
QFT.

The 70's were just as crappy as today. People wanna act like nihilism only came into vogue with the 21st century, when that's not really the case.

This whole "Relatable hero" fad is just that...a current fad. Now every character is essentially like Spider-Man.

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Old 11-08-2013, 09:35 AM   #89
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QFT.

The 70's were just as crappy as today. People wanna act like nihilism only came into vogue with the 21st century, when that's not really the case.

This whole "Relatable hero" fad is just that...a current fad. Now every character is essentially like Spider-Man.
Superman The Movie Was not a reflection of the 70s (more of the 50's).

STM is the way it was because it was the first Superhero movie. But as times progress and the popularity of other heroes and huge film franchises. People gravitate to the other heroes. Superman has fallen in popularity.

I dont think its a fad. Its more realistic. If your a little boy that knows he's different. And you have these powers that no else has. You would be freaked out. Clark is not a normal kid. With bullying being a big issue today it can be challenging emotionally or depressing.

Superman was raised has a human, wants a human life, wants a human girlfriend, raised as a farmer's son, not a son of a philosopher of life with all the answers.

Donner's films wont work today. Not as a blockbuster film. 12 years in the fortress and then he's Superman. Where is the progression.

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Old 11-08-2013, 03:28 PM   #90
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Superman The Movie Was not a reflection of the 70s (more of the 50's).

STM is the way it was because it was the first Superhero movie. But as times progress and the popularity of other heroes and huge film franchises. People gravitate to the other heroes. Superman has fallen in popularity.

I dont think its a fad. Its more realistic. If your a little boy that knows he's different. And you have these powers that no else has. You would be freaked out. Clark is not a normal kid. With bullying being a big issue today it can be challenging emotionally or depressing.

Superman was raised has a human, wants a human life, wants a human girlfriend, raised as a farmer's son, not a son of a philosopher of life with all the answers.

Donner's films wont work today. Not as a blockbuster film. 12 years in the fortress and then he's Superman. Where is the progression.
Tru dat !

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Old 11-12-2013, 08:17 PM   #91
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I don't think I would call it joyless, but I do see why some would. It definitely lacked humor. There were some humorous moments, but nothing really funny IMO. I did feel moments of joy throughout though that made up for the lack of humor. The scene where Clark is saving the oil workers and holding up the tower from falling gave me chills. And young Clark saving the kids in the bus was another one. The scene where he's about to turn himself in and he's floating in the air. Those were the moments that gave me joy because they were "Super" moments.

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Old 11-12-2013, 08:30 PM   #92
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There is one moment in MOS, when Clark's sat in the truck with Jonathon and they are arguing because Clark wants to do more than just be a farmer (which Jonathon finds offensive, obviously).

And that's a moment I treasure, because it shows Clark actually does WANT to be more than just hiding away keeping his head down.

Other than that, his heroics only come about when things happen right in front of his nose.

Unlike many other interpretations of Superman and other Superheroes, this one does not pro actively look for ways to help people, either with his powers or with his profession (journalism i.e. Birthright).

His life seems to be focused on a) hiding and b) finding out where he's from.

A lot of us, before the film came out, talked a lot about this as well.

The whole 'I really hope it's not like Earth One and he only becomes a hero because he had too'.

Now I'm not saying that in MOS he showed anywhere near the reluctance of Earth One. I think they definitely did a great job of Cavill seeming so much more free and at peace once he was seen in the suit and people knew him for who/what he was (despite it being under extreme circumstances).

But i'm definitely looking forward to more pro active heroism in the sequel, from both his personas
Yeah your right. I can understand people not liking his passive approach. But his final words to his mom should give you hope. Explaining why he joins the Daily Planet.

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Old 11-12-2013, 08:33 PM   #93
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I don't think I would call it joyless, but I do see why some would. It definitely lacked humor. There were some humorous moments, but nothing really funny IMO. I did feel moments of joy throughout though that made up for the lack of humor. The scene where Clark is saving the oil workers and holding up the tower from falling gave me chills. And young Clark saving the kids in the bus was another one. The scene where he's about to turn himself in and he's floating in the air. Those were the moments that gave me joy because they were "Super" moments.
I rather have light human moments than Marvel humor.

I don't think MOS had light human moments, it was very mission driven.

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Old 11-12-2013, 09:06 PM   #94
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I agree with with Pa Kent dying. Its very unreasonable the Clark didnt save him. That whole idea shouldnt have existed. I dont think Pa Kent should have died at all. Maybe in the second film. I dont think Pa Kent's death does anything significant to Superman's legacy.


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Originally Posted by blumatic View Post
As opposed to being Superman, he's not. Not yet. And listening to interviews they never say Superman. They call him Kal. Snyder, Cavill, Shannon, Goyer, never said Superman.
Yes, I forget this concept of avoiding the superhero to be the superhero.

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I dont think we should get hung up on him not being Superman because they were other super-men there. Its really just a name given to him for reference since Kal never gives him a name to go by.
It's not "just a name." It defines him and it's given for a reason.

But once he's just one of the Kryptonians, then the whole thing loses its weight, no matter if they want to call him Superman in the second or third movie.

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They could have easily called Zod Super-D-bag and Faora SuperB---- for reference.
Or called Clark the "Fifth Kryptonian."

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In MOS, Zod wasnt out for revenge. And Returns he was mopey over a girl. Very extreme adolescent drama. MOS was dark and with sad moments but they more in the Batman Begins direction as opposed to SR.
Oh yes, we all know that only teenagers fall in love. Not men. Adults punch their problems away.

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Old 11-12-2013, 09:12 PM   #95
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I rather have light human moments than Marvel humor.

I don't think MOS had light human moments, it was very mission driven.
Hmm...mission driven? That is one way of putting it. By light human moments are talking about humor, or like a touching moment? I thought MOS had some very touching scenes, but I'm not sure what you mean exactly.

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Old 11-12-2013, 11:00 PM   #96
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

most people go for cinema for fun and tension relief.
that's why a lot of good movies didn't do good money.

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Old 11-12-2013, 11:43 PM   #97
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This I understand....but I don't think they could have told "their" story and have it be fun and light at the same time. I watched this completely cold. No spoilers...no nothing...and after having watched it, I feel like this is just a different point of view for the character. All the main beats were there, and I did understand Superman/Clark's view of not hurting people because he REALLY could hurt them. The decision to kill Zod, was something organic to this incarnation. It's not a bad thing necessarily...but within that choice there are some very nuanced view points about killing and hurting others that are new to this incarnation.

Another thing is Superman's role in the world seems to be a bit different and MOS brought in the absolute fear and destruction that an alien/alien race being could bring. That is something I really enjoyed and I thought it set this movie apart in a way that was very believable.

The question for me at this point is what can a "Superman" do in this type of world? At some point, I do feel they will need to create that character that inspires hope, but in saying that I don't think Supes killing someone was a bad start to their story. Yeah...I might be a little cheap in the overall narative, but I can see it inspiring the hope I that I hope will one day come to fruition for the people of Metropolis.


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Old 11-13-2013, 12:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury View Post




Yes, I forget this concept of avoiding the superhero to be the superhero.



It's not "just a name." It defines him and it's given for a reason.

But once he's just one of the Kryptonians, then the whole thing loses its weight, no matter if they want to call him Superman in the second or third movie.



Or called Clark the "Fifth Kryptonian."



Oh yes, we all know that only teenagers fall in love. Not men. Adults punch their problems away.
They weren't avoiding the superhero notion. They were sticking with how they wanted portray the story. Hey you don't like, it's cool. Many feel that he wasn't Superman in this film. Snyder and Co may agree.

I know you value the myth and wonder of SUPERMAN. So do I, but having other Kryptonian around doesn't mean he can't be Superman. It doesn't diminish the name.

Hey Superman can be mopy in SR, that's fine. But put that on the lifetime channel. I don't want my hero in full costume watching his ex girlfriend get undressed via x-ray vision.

And with Kal the only one with an S on his chest, I think they will be inclined to call him Superman.

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Old 11-13-2013, 03:29 AM   #99
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In short, if superman can't save everybody, he is a bad superman. It is a bad movie. Lol.

Btw, is it really no innocent died in previous superman movies?

Any citizens died in spidey movies?

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Old 11-13-2013, 04:27 AM   #100
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QFT.

The 70's were just as crappy as today. People wanna act like nihilism only came into vogue with the 21st century, when that's not really the case.

This whole "Relatable hero" fad is just that...a current fad. Now every character is essentially like Spider-Man.

Agree to disagree dude.

Hmmmm....I remember the 70's, there certainly were some crappy times,
(cold war, Vietnam, oil embargo and polyester),
but other than that things weren't quite as nihilistic as now.


As to the relatable hero fad.....hmmmmmm, don't you think audience sensibilities evolve ? Very few films from the 1950's are popular today,
sure there's a few that are classics, but a lot of them are just rubbish.

The 70's spawned some amazing film-making (star wars, superman TM, jaws,
the Godfather.... interesting that Mario Puzo wrote two of those !) and a huge amount of crap.

Anyway, back to the relatable hero. That's not a fad man, look at action movies over the past .....well all of them, you've got your films with super-heroes ( guys who are just so ****ing awesome they can't be touched, e.g. any Steven Seagal movie) and then there's the hard-luck guy who barely gets by and wins in the end through guts (like, the first Die-Hard film) cinema is
full of relatable heroes, that's nothing new.

So we disagree there, which is cool, IMO IYO, that's cool man.

But what is not cool is comparing Superman to Spider-Man.
I like Spider man....sometimes, but Superman is a much more compelling character.

Comics wise, the old " he always does the right thing, and always gets screwed." gets a bit old after a while. I really enjoyed the early 90's / late 80's Todd McFarlane Spider Man period, where he got his **** together
- there was actually an evolution of the character, rather than the perpetually dorky loser. Yes, we get it, having super powers didn't improve his life.....but doesn't that say something about him as a person ?


Superman could grind the world beneath his boots. There are some great depictions of what he'd be like if he turned to evil, or just became selfish, and really started unleashing his powers - pretty much nothing could stop him.
The greatness of the character comes from him continually choosing, not to
be like that. He does get a bit sanctimonious at times, but he always comes through.

Spider Man says "with great power comes great responsibility", but Superman
lives by those words, and everything he does reflects them -so much so, that he never needs to say it, or get angsty about it, he just gets on with it.


Now onto the films. I ****ing hated Andrew Garfield as Peter Parker, he was nowhere near as enjoyable as Tobey Maguire, however, Garfield wasn't bad as Spider-Man, he got the cockiness and the wise-cracks just right. Spider Man is a pretty annoying super-hero, as pissing off his enemies is one of his most effective tactics (it works for him !). While sometimes it's amusing, often he comes off as being a prick (although I though Maguire also captured that underneath the mask he's often scared ****less, and some of that bravado is
faked, advantage Maguire !)

Also, the film depictions of Peter Parker don't really stack with what I know about teenagers, (having been one, and worked with quite a few).

Superman, from MOS, wow ! We see the guy from his birth to his early adulthood, plagued by self-doubt, bullies, and a lack of identity. Sure, we can't all crumple steel pipe like paper, but most of us deal with similar things.
So does he become a loud-mouthed jerk, like Spider-man ? Arguably, being
vastly more powerful, he's got much more weight to throw around. No, he's even less cocky or mouthy -even to his most hated enemies.
Just like the comics, he just gets on with it.

Perfect example. The oil rig. Smashes down the door to free the trapped workers, doesn't say a word....doesn't need to. In many movies the fact that
the hero had so few lines would be a failing, in MOS Cav-El did a great job,
with very little to say- but you knew what he was thinking.

Also...first appearance in costume. For Maguire, the first swinging thru town scene ( okay, CGI not what it is today) I thought "yeah, that's spider man alright" which was cool, but nothing compared to the thrill when Clark steps out of the ship, wearing the costume for the first time. His cape billows in the wind and I thought "WOW, THAT'S SUPERMAN !" you know, that's what Superman would really look like. Beyond cool, beyond awesome and way beyond any of the Spider-man films.


I see by the username you, like myself, are a Bat-fan. Batman doesn't say anything until he's ground someone's face into the dirt (well, someone who deserved it). In some ways Batman's just as impossible as Superman ( genius, scientist, detective, master-of-disguise, mechanic, armourer, billionaire, ninja)
but he's such a compelling character - for some reason the angst and obsession that drive him, never get old (unlike a lot of characters, e.g. Wolverine, I mean, I love the guy, I'm Canadian, but that "I'm a gruff loner " routine gets really ****ing old. Face it, you're part of the Xmen, get over yourself and play ping pong with Cyclops).

Okay I lost track of where I was going with that, other than to say that Batman's awesome (and also much, much, much more compelling than Spider-Man). He's a guy who doesn't change that much (well not his internal motivations) yet keeps us coming back, whereas Spider Man just gets annoying after a while.

But, this is nothing personal man, just IMO. cheers.

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