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Old 11-03-2013, 05:41 PM   #76
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

On my second viewing I noticed that we are actually shown that the soldier is Loki. When they first show the soldier on Svartalfheim you can get a glimpse of the illusion creating glow just vanishing from his edges.

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Old 11-04-2013, 12:26 AM   #77
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Oh and imo: hell (Mephisto's not Hela's) would freeze over before Odin ever ever gave Loki the throne willingly.

I don't really see the point of view that it is "easy" to explain Loki on the throne; there are so many obstacles. I also don't think it's repetitive to have Loki on the throne again, as it is in totally different circumstances. He is not rightful, he is not open about it, everyone thinks he's dead, everything thinks he's Odin, Thor feels favoured and does not want the throne (yet). Total wildcard plot device. Well played. If you find that boring, sucks for you.

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Old 11-04-2013, 12:47 AM   #78
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
I noticed that we are actually shown that the soldier is Loki. When they first show the soldier on Svartalfheim you can get a glimpse of the illusion creating glow just vanishing from his edges.
Thats what I thought too especially with the close-up shots for that soldier. But for the people who haven't been attention to every detail, it could be confusing to them.

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Old 11-04-2013, 01:51 AM   #79
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I noticed it too and thought that it was Loki, but since there was no reveal right away I thought "oh maybe not then". Same with the scene with Loki 'dying' earlier. I kept expecting the body to disappear and Loki to step out and laugh at Thor for falling for the same trick again and again, but they kept with it and I seriously thought that he could have been dead right up until the reveal at the end.

Though as for what the reveal means I didn't quite know what to think myself at first, but going from what I've heard in interviews it seems they may be intent on having Loki pose as Odin in the long term and rule Asgard having let Thor leave for earth. Before I heard that I half thought Loki was just messing with Thor for the fun of it.

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Old 11-04-2013, 02:04 AM   #80
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I think Thor goes to Hel would be epic and Odin trapped in Hel would be a good excuse for Thor go there.

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:40 AM   #81
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

For an interesting and well done plot twist, see Loki's "death" in Thor The Dark World
For something daft and annoying, see the "Mandarin is an actor" reveal in IM3

I thought for a while that Loki had really sacrificed himself and was really satisfied with the idea of that. Of course, it did mean no more Tom as Loki, which is a bit of a let down.

But when I saw that guard looking for Thor and Loki and then saw him again reporting to Odin. I did think to myself "Hmmmmm, could that be our boy Loki?"

And it was!

Anyway, to answer the question...

My guess is that Loki has either managed to place Odin into a forced Odin Sleep or that Loki did indeed die and went to Hel. Whereupon he strikes a deal with Hela, to have Odin take Loki's place in Hel.
To what end? Perhaps Hela has a plan to take over Asgard? I don't know.
Another possibility is that Odin is in such deep grief and pain, he has surreptitiously given the throne to Loki.
However, I would find that to be the weakest way of depicting Loki's taking of the throne.

My preference is for Hela to have some involvement in Loki's return and rise to the throne.

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:40 AM   #82
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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I like how Thor, who has known his father for years, could have been fooled by a switcheroo.
We're talking about a character in the comics who didn't even recognize that the body Loki's soul hijacked was his resurrected wife Sif. It's not that implausible.

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:48 AM   #83
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I don't know how up people are with their comics but what happens with Loki reminded me of what happens to Doctor Doom in the Fantastic Four.

Basically the Silver Surfer and Terrex (herald of Galactus) fight and crash into a immobilised Doctor Doom seemingly killing him, at the same time of Doom's 'death' a bystander gets angry and storms off (actually he shoves Aunt May). Turns out Doom at the moment of death transfers his consciousness into the bystander.

In the movie it looks like Loki does the same thing.

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:49 AM   #84
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I do think between the time the final battle in Greenwich and Thor's conversation with Odin/Loki some time has passed. The thrown room has been completely restored so there has been some time for something to happen with Odin. Of which the mystery is a great, very well scripted IMO.

In Earth's Mightiest Hereos season 1 the whole story was brought together at the end by Loki who had manipulated countless people and battles in order to keep everyone distracted why he managed to corrupt Yggdrasil which gave him control of the Odinforce and allowed him to capture and imprison Odin and take the throne, only for a final confrontation in Asgard between himself and the Avengers.

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:53 AM   #85
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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I do think between the time the final battle in Greenwich and Thor's conversation with Odin/Loki some time has passed. The thrown room has been completely restored so there has been some time for something to happen with Odin. Of which the mystery is a great, very well scripted IMO.
Will be cool if in the sequel you see Odin (Hopkins) and then you see a dissolve where loki is standing in the same position but none of the Asgardians react letting the audience know that every one in Asgard sees Odin as Hopkins but the Audeince sees Odin as Loki

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Old 11-05-2013, 12:04 AM   #86
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I'm thinking in the context of the next Thor film with my hypothesis:

Loki actually died.
He went to Helheim and made a deal with Hela to swap places with Odin.
Odin went into early Odin sleep given the battle at Asgard and the loss of his wife Frigga and Loki..
Loki used this moment to give Hela access to Asgard and take Odin.
Loki assumed Odin's identity and took the throne.
Loki fooled Thor and Thor left Asgard thinking all is now well.
Loki's actions on Asgard open the door for Ragnarok.
These actions set the stage for Thor: Ragnarok which will be quelled by Thor and co.
However the events of this story will allow Thanos to steal the Gauntlet and the Tessaract locked in Asgard's vault.
Thanos will align these with the other stones he has obtained e.g. Aether to complete the Infinity Gauntlet.
The conclusion of this story will be Avengers: Infinity -- which could be one massive war.
It will also conclude Marvel Phase 3 and reset all characters/ or set stage for new heroes and actors.

Note 1: Captain America was unable to assist Thor because the events of Malekith's plan and the attacks by Winter Soldier on SHIELD are likely simultaneously occurring.
Note 2: The Infinity Gauntlet parts are: Gauntlet itself, Tessaract (Mind), Aether (Power), ??(Space), Guardians of the Galaxy? (Time), Dr. Strange? (Soul), ?? (Reality).


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Old 11-09-2013, 12:36 AM   #87
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Originally Posted by RetrogradeOrbit View Post
For an interesting and well done plot twist, see Loki's "death" in Thor The Dark World
For something daft and annoying, see the "Mandarin is an actor" reveal in IM3


My guess is that Loki has either managed to place Odin into a forced Odin Sleep or that Loki did indeed die and went to Hel. Whereupon he strikes a deal with Hela, to have Odin take Loki's place in Hel.

My preference is for Hela to have some involvement in Loki's return and rise to the throne.
This... Once Loki said " I'll see you in ___". Since Asgardians wouldn't know anything aboout "HELL" I immediately thought of "HEL" and Loki has been known to have a connection with Hela often times, it didn't seem that big of a stretch in my mind that it would have something to do with his cheating death.


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Old 11-09-2013, 09:44 AM   #88
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

I think the answer to what really happened has to be more complicated than just "Loki faked his death, went to Asgard and overthrew Odin". For one, even in his weakened state I think it would still be pretty difficult to simply overpower Odin. Secondly, I kind of agree with the earlier poster who suggested that Odin knew he was talking to Loki when he was speaking with the guard about "'finding a body'. I am intrigued by the idea that Loki actually died and made some sort of deal to return.

Lastly, are Loki's illusions corporeal? In Thor they weren't (at least in the battle with the Frost Giants). It would have to be a pretty advanced illusion for Thor to be able to hold Loki and believe he was dead.

Finally, I was actually satisfied with how they managed the whole redemption thing. Loki wasn't and was (sort of) redeemed at the same time. The film did a nice job showing that while Loki did love Frigga and does care about Thor, his nature will never allow him a classic redemption arc. His mischief will always prevail but that doesn't mean he doesn't still have genuine emotion. I thought it was a nice play off the whole 'redemption equals death trope'.

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Old 11-09-2013, 10:21 AM   #89
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Well what if LOKI is dead and everything you see about THOR is Loki's Heaven?

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Old 11-09-2013, 10:23 AM   #90
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

It was a neat twist.

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Old 11-09-2013, 10:24 AM   #91
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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I think the answer to what really happened has to be more complicated than just "Loki faked his death, went to Asgard and overthrew Odin". For one, even in his weakened state I think it would still be pretty difficult to simply overpower Odin. Secondly, I kind of agree with the earlier poster who suggested that Odin knew he was talking to Loki when he was speaking with the guard about "'finding a body'. I am intrigued by the idea that Loki actually died and made some sort of deal to return.

Lastly, are Loki's illusions corporeal? In Thor they weren't (at least in the battle with the Frost Giants). It would have to be a pretty advanced illusion for Thor to be able to hold Loki and believe he was dead.

Finally, I was actually satisfied with how they managed the whole redemption thing. Loki wasn't and was (sort of) redeemed at the same time. The film did a nice job showing that while Loki did love Frigga and does care about Thor, his nature will never allow him a classic redemption arc. His mischief will always prevail but that doesn't mean he doesn't still have genuine emotion. I thought it was a nice play off the whole 'redemption equals death trope'.
Loki had the element of surprise with Odin. Who we have already seen Loki trick in the past (sneaking in frost giants).

I think Loki was actually lying there when Thor was holding him. The illusion was his skin changing and the stab wound.

Or Loki could've actually died and gone to Niffelheim and made a deal to come back. idk. But i doubt it.

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Old 11-09-2013, 11:24 AM   #92
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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No, he definitely loved her. Remember how he even created an illusion of her so he could have a conversation with her in the dungeon.

I also think we're to draw the conclusion that Frigga was the one that taught Loki magic and therefor they've had a special bond.
That was Frigga who did that. She had similar abilities.

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Old 11-09-2013, 11:52 AM   #93
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Well what if LOKI is dead and everything you see about THOR is Loki's Heaven?
What if everything is just a dream? #mindblown

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Old 11-09-2013, 04:00 PM   #94
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Was there anything else after the credits after the Collector scene????

I know I should have stayed but my whole family dragged me out after the Collector scene.

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Old 11-09-2013, 04:49 PM   #95
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

Didn't Loki (disguised as the guard) tell Odin that he'd found one body back on Svartalfheim?

What if he told him that the body was that of Jane's, and that Thor and Loki were missing...presumably captured or killed by the Dark Elves. Odin may have seen fit to go after them himself (Heimdall's vision of Thor and Jane may have been obscured by the Convergence, the Aether, or the just the presence of the Dark Elves themselves). So Odin ventures off to find them on Svartalfheim (maybe with a few men, who knows?)...

With the real Odin gone, Loki (disguised as Odin) commands Heimdall to be thrown into the dungeons for his treason, perhaps even into solitary confinement so he can't let anyone know what actually happened. Loki replaces Heimdall with a "fake" one (perhaps an illusion or him masking someone as Heimdall) to do his bidding. Without the real Heimdall, no one is there to let Odin back in to Asgard.

And there you have it...Odin stranded on the dead and deserted world of Svartalfheim (we haven't seen any evidence of Odin being able to communicate or travel through space), the real Heimdall locked away, and Loki sitting pretty on the throne with no one the wiser (especially Thor).

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Old 11-09-2013, 06:11 PM   #96
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Didn't Loki (disguised as the guard) tell Odin that he'd found one body back on Svartalfheim?

What if he told him that the body was that of Jane's, and that Thor and Loki were missing...presumably captured or killed by the Dark Elves. Odin may have seen fit to go after them himself (Heimdall's vision of Thor and Jane may have been obscured by the Convergence, the Aether, or the just the presence of the Dark Elves themselves). So Odin ventures off to find them on Svartalfheim (maybe with a few men, who knows?)...

With the real Odin gone, Loki (disguised as Odin) commands Heimdall to be thrown into the dungeons for his treason, perhaps even into solitary confinement so he can't let anyone know what actually happened. Loki replaces Heimdall with a "fake" one (perhaps an illusion or him masking someone as Heimdall) to do his bidding. Without the real Heimdall, no one is there to let Odin back in to Asgard.

And there you have it...Odin stranded on the dead and deserted world of Svartalfheim (we haven't seen any evidence of Odin being able to communicate or travel through space), the real Heimdall locked away, and Loki sitting pretty on the throne with no one the wiser (especially Thor).
One Problem Odin had the power to send Thor to earth. I'm assuming he could send him self some where if he wished.

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Old 11-09-2013, 07:31 PM   #97
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I genuinely think... that last shot of Loki revealing himself as 'Odin' was added in re-shoots.. it just seemed too 'real' in the film to me that Loki had actually ended up giving his life in hoping to achieve some sort of vengeance for his 'mother'. The thing for me that sort of solidified that was when Thor visited Loki in his prison after his mothers death, Loki trying to hide his actual demeanour from Thor, he seemed genuinely affected by what had happened and to me seemed to crave vengeance at any cost (even going to the extent of pretending to betray Thor to give Thor a shot at destroying the Aether and taking out Malekith, all while shielding Jane during that encounter).

Something about that final shot just seemed odd and tacked on to me. It is a plot point that does give them something good to work from in future films but I don't think that was the original ending at all. I'll need to see the film again though before I make a final judgement on that so don't take that as my final thoughts on it, that's just from my first screening, going to go see it again on Friday. That's the problem with a 'trickster' like Loki.. you can never be too sure just what exactly is going on...especially how his character behaves in Thor: The Dark World.

Just my thoughts for now... don't take it as final judgement.

He felt for Frigga but Loki only has ever wanted one thing...to be a King. That's his purpose...he wants what he calls "his birthright". I think he saw his chance to do it and did it. As for Odin, maybe he found a way to trick him into a portal and Thanos has him imprisoned.

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Old 11-09-2013, 08:19 PM   #98
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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When the asguardian guard returns from the dark elves world, telling Odin That Loki had been killed, look at him, I bet he's Loki in disguise. It Is when he replaced Odin ( they were only two in the room ) Loki has probably created the illusion of being injures by the blade, then he stayer on the ground, so Thor could took him in his arm. After another illusion of his dying body, eh replaced the guard Odin send and then replaced Odin, very simple for him
Yeah. Honestly, not sure of the confusion it is made almost painfully obvious. We see the green glimmer of an illusion on the guard in the Dark World. And then as you point out, his facial expressions in that scene with Odin make it clear.

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Old 11-09-2013, 10:33 PM   #99
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One Problem Odin had the power to send Thor to earth. I'm assuming he could send him self some where if he wished.
OTOH, this is apparently a seriously non-trivial effort by Odin. It may not be something he can do anytime soon on Swartalfheim.

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Old 11-09-2013, 11:11 PM   #100
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Default Re: SUPER UBER SPOILERMANIA: The Ending... What Does It Mean?

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Yeah. Honestly, not sure of the confusion it is made almost painfully obvious. We see the green glimmer of an illusion on the guard in the Dark World. And then as you point out, his facial expressions in that scene with Odin make it clear.
Seriously, it was so obvious that the soldier was Loki that I don't know how anyone missed it. The glow was one of those subtle things but the scene with Odin practically spelled it out, and the soldier's voice totally sounded like Hiddleston's too. That was actually the first thing I noticed - I thought it was Hiddleston speaking at first but then we saw it wasn't Loki.

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