The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > The Avengers > Avengers: Age Of Ultron

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-10-2013, 02:21 PM   #76
Rock Sexton
Banned User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest
Posts: 9,139
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
That could also mean Banner assists him, since he was with Tony in the IM3 cut scene. Yes, other factors might come into play, but if Ultron isn't the creation primarily of Stark and/or Banner, then using Ultron is ultimately pointless as part of what makes him interesting is lost. The MCU has altered things about their characters, sure. But they have found ways to keep the soul of the characters intact. If you remove Ultron's "daddy issues" then part of his soul is gone. I don't see this happening.

I still don't see where Zola is a superior idea.
Let's just say if multiple Avengers are responsible for his creation, his so-called "daddy issues" aren't gone. They're there. Except it would be more of the My Three Dads ilk.


Rock Sexton is offline  
Old 11-10-2013, 02:24 PM   #77
Spider-Fan
The First Avenger Mod!!!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
Spider-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the neighborhood!
Posts: 38,923
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Sexton View Post
Let's just say if multiple Avengers are responsible for his creation, his so-called "daddy issues" aren't gone. They're there. Except it would be more of the My Three Dads ilk.

LOL!!!!

It's fine if multiple Avengers contribute, but one of them has to be chief architect (the prime target of Ultron's wrath).

Spider-Fan is offline  
Old 11-10-2013, 02:54 PM   #78
Rock Sexton
Banned User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest
Posts: 9,139
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
LOL!!!!

It's fine if multiple Avengers contribute, but one of them has to be chief architect (the prime target of Ultron's wrath).
If the hate is there for his creators, then you still have the essence of the character.

Rock Sexton is offline  
Old 11-10-2013, 02:56 PM   #79
Whiskey Tango
Side-Kick
 
Whiskey Tango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The South
Posts: 19,265
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
one of them has to be chief architect (the prime target of Ultron's wrath).
That would be Selleck's mustache.

__________________

2007-2008 SHH Pro Football Pick 'Em Champion
Whiskey Tango is offline  
Old 11-10-2013, 04:48 PM   #80
Norrin Parker
Majestor of the Shi'ar
 
Norrin Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,068
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Sexton View Post
Let's just say if multiple Avengers are responsible for his creation, his so-called "daddy issues" aren't gone. They're there. Except it would be more of the My Three Dads ilk.

Quick someone photoshop Tony,Bruce and Fury holding a baby Ultron.

__________________
"TO ME MY GALACTUS"
- Franklin Richards-
FAVORITE COMIC BOOK FILMS (no particular order)
Spider-Man 2, The Avengers, Spider-Man, Batman Begins, Batman '89, Captain America: The First Avenger, Iron Man, Iron Man 3, The Amazing Spider-Man
Norrin Parker is offline  
Old 11-10-2013, 10:00 PM   #81
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 11,683
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
That could also mean Banner assists him, since he was with Tony in the IM3 cut scene. Yes, other factors might come into play, but if Ultron isn't the creation primarily of Stark and/or Banner, then using Ultron is ultimately pointless as part of what makes him interesting is lost. The MCU has altered things about their characters, sure. But they have found ways to keep the soul of the characters intact. If you remove Ultron's "daddy issues" then part of his soul is gone. I don't see this happening.

I still don't see where Zola is a superior idea.
Part of what makes Ultron interesting *is* lost without Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as "Mommy and Daddy." But since that's entirely out of the question now, then why do you think Tony Stark is the *only* "daddy" Ultron could fixate his hatred on? If Arnim Zola created him, or Howard Stark, or Justin Hammer, or anybody else, you don't think Ultron could develop an Oedipus complex against them just as easily? Might become even more frustrating to him if his creator was already dead (e.g., Arnim Zola and/or Howard Stark), making him all the more bitter towards humanity since he'll never get the answers to the questions he demands of his creator.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline  
Old 11-10-2013, 10:04 PM   #82
Spider-Fan
The First Avenger Mod!!!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
Spider-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the neighborhood!
Posts: 38,923
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Part of what makes Ultron interesting *is* lost without Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as "Mommy and Daddy." But since that's entirely out of the question now, then why do you think Tony Stark is the *only* "daddy" Ultron could fixate his hatred on? If Arnim Zola created him, or Howard Stark, or Justin Hammer, or anybody else, you don't think Ultron could develop an Oedipus complex against them just as easily? Might become even more frustrating to him if his creator was already dead (e.g., Arnim Zola and/or Howard Stark), making him all the more bitter towards humanity since he'll never get the answers to the questions he demands of his creator.
Having his creator already deceased is uninteresting. His creator has to be alive, and no one would care if a villain created an evil robot. It is uninteresting and not tragic in the least. If a HERO the audience loves does it, it becomes interesting, and this is why Ultron is interesting. Taking this away makes him not unique, generic, and cheapens the movie. It should be someone the audience knows and likes, and Stark is best candidate. I'd also be okay with it being Banner or some combination of the two (or some variation of).

Spider-Fan is offline  
Old 11-10-2013, 10:31 PM   #83
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 5,894
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Yeah, a few characters being involved, does not change the previous statement about someone who is very good with AI creating him. Either Kevin Feige is a reliable source or he isn't. Tony is the creator.

Now, the fact that other people are involved, *that* is interesting, and makes sense. It allows all of them to feel the weight of what they've created. Aside from making the AI, someone has to provide Ultron's body/metal. Someone has to provide Ultron's training/direction. Having multiple people involved in him going bad just makes it so much more awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
Having his creator already deceased is uninteresting. His creator has to be alive, and no one would care if a villain created an evil robot. It is uninteresting and not tragic in the least. If a HERO the audience loves does it, it becomes interesting, and this is why Ultron is interesting. Taking this away makes him not unique, generic, and cheapens the movie. It should be someone the audience knows and likes, and Stark is best candidate. I'd also be okay with it being Banner or some combination of the two (or some variation of).
Exactly. Stark is the best candidate, not the only candidate. You could do a bad story where Ultron is fixated on someone he's never seen, or who no one cares about, but that's not what Marvel is going to do. They're going to do a good story, where Stark is daddy and Pepper is mommy, because, they, like Sam, cannot come up with any good reason not to.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is online now  
Old 11-10-2013, 11:51 PM   #84
Dr. Evil
RIP Robin Williams
 
Dr. Evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 38,295
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

I would not be surprised if Marvel starts a slew of casting announcements within the next 4 to 6 weeks now that TDW is out and released.

- The official announcements of Aaron Taylor Johnson and Elizabeth Olsen as Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.
- Official announcement of Ant Man and Wasp. Possibly even announcing both Pym and Lang along with Jan.

And probably Marvel projects outside the MCU:

- Announcement of voice cast of Big Hero 6.

__________________
My MCU Rankings: 1. The Avengers- 9/10, 2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier- 9/10, 3. Guardians of the Galaxy- 9/10 , 4. Iron Man- 8.5/10, 5. Captain America: The First Avenger- 8/10, 6. Thor- 8/10, 7. Iron Man 2- 7.5/10, 8. Thor: The Dark World- 7/10, 9. Iron Man 3- 7/10, 10. The Incredible Hulk- 6/10
Dr. Evil is online now  
Old 11-10-2013, 11:54 PM   #85
Sawyer
F***ITY BYE!
 
Sawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 69,042
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Sexton View Post
Let's just say if multiple Avengers are responsible for his creation, his so-called "daddy issues" aren't gone. They're there. Except it would be more of the My Three Dads ilk.

Hey hey hey hey HEY!


That's Three Men and a Baby, dammit!

__________________
Heterosexual - A Person Sexually Attracted to the Opposite Sex
Homosexual - A Person Sexually Attracted to the Same Sex
Bisexual - A Person Sexually Attracted to Both Sexes
Hype-osexual - A Person More Sexually Excited By CBM Photos/Trailers Than Any Man or Woman Could Ever Hope To Make Them


Sawyer is online now  
Old 11-10-2013, 11:55 PM   #86
Dr. Evil
RIP Robin Williams
 
Dr. Evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 38,295
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango View Post
That would be Selleck's mustache.
Which he must never shave off.

__________________
My MCU Rankings: 1. The Avengers- 9/10, 2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier- 9/10, 3. Guardians of the Galaxy- 9/10 , 4. Iron Man- 8.5/10, 5. Captain America: The First Avenger- 8/10, 6. Thor- 8/10, 7. Iron Man 2- 7.5/10, 8. Thor: The Dark World- 7/10, 9. Iron Man 3- 7/10, 10. The Incredible Hulk- 6/10
Dr. Evil is online now  
Old 11-11-2013, 12:37 AM   #87
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 11,683
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
Having his creator already deceased is uninteresting. His creator has to be alive, and no one would care if a villain created an evil robot. It is uninteresting and not tragic in the least. If a HERO the audience loves does it, it becomes interesting, and this is why Ultron is interesting. Taking this away makes him not unique, generic, and cheapens the movie. It should be someone the audience knows and likes, and Stark is best candidate. I'd also be okay with it being Banner or some combination of the two (or some variation of).
Ultron wasn't created by a "hero the audience knows and loves" at all in the comics, and he turned into one of the most feared and "beloved" of all Marvel villains. It wasn't a "tragic" story of an A-list good guy creating a bad robot; it was a dark, disturbing story of a deeply troubled, bipolar C-list hero/villain whose mental problems were transferred into the AI of his robot creation.

Your assertions about what makes Ultron and his creator's story so popular in the comics would be a lot more effective if you, you know, understood what makes Ultron and his creator's story so popular in the comics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Yeah, a few characters being involved, does not change the previous statement about someone who is very good with AI creating him. Either Kevin Feige is a reliable source or he isn't. Tony is the creator.
Because Arnim Zola, Howard Stark, and Justin Hammer have no experience with AI and robotics, clearly, and Kevin Feige said so, clearly.




Quote:
Exactly. Stark is the best candidate, not the only candidate. You could do a bad story where Ultron is fixated on someone he's never seen, or who no one cares about, but that's not what Marvel is going to do. They're going to do a good story, where Stark is daddy and Pepper is mommy, because, they, like Sam, cannot come up with any good reason not to.
I've "come up with a good reason" time and time again, and you choose to ignore it. A good reason (or three) to leave Ultron's creation out of Tony's hands is because it cheapens Tony Stark's character; it continues to propagate a Stark-centric film universe; and because a lot of people in both fandom and in general audiences alike have made it clear that they're tired of Pepper-In-Distress syndrome in every goddamn movie she's ever in.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 12:57 AM   #88
Rock Sexton
Banned User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in the Southwest
Posts: 9,139
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Hey hey hey hey HEY!


That's Three Men and a Baby, dammit!
Haha I think I accidentally mashed up the TV show "My Two Dads" with "Three Men and a Little Lady" ....

Rock Sexton is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:13 AM   #89
OriginalMiles
**** you, Starbucks.
 
OriginalMiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: England
Posts: 5,778
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norrin Parker View Post
Quick someone photoshop Tony,Bruce and Fury holding a baby Ultron.
Here is a terrible attempt.


OriginalMiles is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 07:09 AM   #90
xeno000
Raining hell from above
 
xeno000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Knowhere
Posts: 7,198
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Part of what makes Ultron interesting *is* lost without Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as "Mommy and Daddy." But since that's entirely out of the question now, then why do you think Tony Stark is the *only* "daddy" Ultron could fixate his hatred on? If Arnim Zola created him, or Howard Stark, or Justin Hammer, or anybody else, you don't think Ultron could develop an Oedipus complex against them just as easily? Might become even more frustrating to him if his creator was already dead (e.g., Arnim Zola and/or Howard Stark), making him all the more bitter towards humanity since he'll never get the answers to the questions he demands of his creator.

We know you hate the idea of Tony Stark creating Ultron, Sam. You keep pounding away at this ad nauseam. But you don't have any way of knowing how Whedon is going to handle the robot's personality and its obsessions. For all you know, Ultron might not even have an Oedipus Complex the way he does in the comic books.

Perhaps Ultron hates his creator for other reasons. Feige has said that Ultron hates humanity for its free will, and that Tony Stark is the poster boy for free will in the MCU. It's easy to see why an AI that was created for one purpose and not given any choice in its actions would, upon developing sentience, hate the one(s) who deprived him of his freedom. An Ultron who sees himself as a virtual slave and Tony Stark as his chief master, with all of humanity somehow culpable for his plight because he was created to protect them, could be quite fascinating. There would be no need to involve Pepper in this scenario (and yes, we know how much you hate her, too).

xeno000 is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 07:33 AM   #91
Crimson King
Superhero Novelista
 
Crimson King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,917
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

I think SHIELD is going to take the place of Pym as the focus of Ultron's hatred, as I believe SHIELD creates Ultron patterned after the AI in Tony's suits, but with other upgrades based on other members of the Avengers (i.e. tech from Destroyer, etc.).

__________________
kingwrites.com // @kingmatte
Crimson King is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 09:08 AM   #92
Norrin Parker
Majestor of the Shi'ar
 
Norrin Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,068
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson King View Post
I think SHIELD is going to take the place of Pym as the focus of Ultron's hatred, as I believe SHIELD creates Ultron patterned after the AI in Tony's suits, but with other upgrades based on other members of the Avengers (i.e. tech from Destroyer, etc.).
I'd be satisfied with this.

__________________
"TO ME MY GALACTUS"
- Franklin Richards-
FAVORITE COMIC BOOK FILMS (no particular order)
Spider-Man 2, The Avengers, Spider-Man, Batman Begins, Batman '89, Captain America: The First Avenger, Iron Man, Iron Man 3, The Amazing Spider-Man
Norrin Parker is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 09:30 AM   #93
The Question
Objectivism doesn't work.
 
The Question's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hub City
Posts: 38,981
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Part of what makes Ultron interesting *is* lost without Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as "Mommy and Daddy." But since that's entirely out of the question now, then why do you think Tony Stark is the *only* "daddy" Ultron could fixate his hatred on? If Arnim Zola created him, or Howard Stark, or Justin Hammer, or anybody else, you don't think Ultron could develop an Oedipus complex against them just as easily? Might become even more frustrating to him if his creator was already dead (e.g., Arnim Zola and/or Howard Stark), making him all the more bitter towards humanity since he'll never get the answers to the questions he demands of his creator.
Because Iron Man is a member of The Avengers. That makes him the best candidate to replace Hank Pym.

__________________
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
The Question is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 09:36 AM   #94
Spider-Fan
The First Avenger Mod!!!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
Spider-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the neighborhood!
Posts: 38,923
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Ultron wasn't created by a "hero the audience knows and loves" at all in the comics, and he turned into one of the most feared and "beloved" of all Marvel villains. It wasn't a "tragic" story of an A-list good guy creating a bad robot; it was a dark, disturbing story of a deeply troubled, bipolar C-list hero/villain whose mental problems were transferred into the AI of his robot creation.

Your assertions about what makes Ultron and his creator's story so popular in the comics would be a lot more effective if you, you know, understood what makes Ultron and his creator's story so popular in the comics.
First off, can the insulting tone of your posts. If you want to debate me on an intellectual level, then go ahead. I have read almost every Ultron story EVER written and I know damn well all there is to know about his vendetta with his creator. It is not I who comes off looking foolish when you make claims like this, it is you. So grow up and argue like an adult. I never once went out of my way to insult you. I debated your logic. Learn something.

Second (moving on to your ACTUAL points), no he wasn't created by an A-list hero. But, no less, he was created by a flawed hero. A-list, B-list, C-list, D-list, etc. it doesn't matter. He is the enduring legacy of a flawed hero. Hence the TRAGEDY of the story. If Ultron had been the creation of say Baron Zemo in the comics, I guarantee you he wouldn't have the legacy he has endured in the comics. He would have been a more generic, less personal, and less interesting villain. The twisted family dynamic makes him unique. Not because he is an evil robot. The Arnim Zola idea takes away the family element of Ultron. So, what would be even the point of using Ultron?

Third, Stark is the best character to maintain Ultron's family dynamic. He actually is in a committed relationship with Pepper, so the set-up for it to work is all there. No one cares about Arnim Zola, thus if Ultron attacks him, guess what? The audience won't care! Raimi went too far in SM3 to make the villains have a personal connection to Peter Parker. But, he is right that most CLASSIC villains do have some personal connection to the hero. Ultron has a major personal connection to the Avengers. Taking away that makes the conflict less personal, and thus, less interesting to the public.


Quote:
I've "come up with a good reason" time and time again, and you choose to ignore it. A good reason (or three) to leave Ultron's creation out of Tony's hands is because it cheapens Tony Stark's character; it continues to propagate a Stark-centric film universe; and because a lot of people in both fandom and in general audiences alike have made it clear that they're tired of Pepper-In-Distress syndrome in every goddamn movie she's ever in.
Pepper was only ever kidnapped in 1 Iron Man film. How is the audience tired of Pepper in distress? She isn't Mary Jane Watson who was kidnapped every time she walked out the door by the villains. In the first film, Iron Monger chases her a whole minute during the climax, and she helps beat him. 2nd film, Stark saves her from being blown up. She was in danger for half a second. Only in IM3 was she in danger for a lengthy period.

As for it being a Stark centered universe, Avengers wasn't Tony Stark and his amazing friends. In fact, Captain America had MORE screen time than Iron Man did in Avengers. Also, like it or not, Iron Man is the most popular character. He is going to have a major role in the movie, no matter what. Only in his case, it would make sense to the story and not feel forced. Whedon did a good job at balancing so many characters. Even if Stark is Ultron's chief architect, the other characters will still be vital to the story.

Spider-Fan is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 09:42 AM   #95
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 5,894
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Because Arnim Zola, Howard Stark, and Justin Hammer have no experience with AI and robotics, clearly, and Kevin Feige said so, clearly.
"Quite good with AI." Unless you can name an AI that any other character has made in the films, they don't qualify. Sorry.

Quote:
I've "come up with a good reason" time and time again, and you choose to ignore it. A good reason (or three) to leave Ultron's creation out of Tony's hands is because it cheapens Tony Stark's character; it continues to propagate a Stark-centric film universe; and because a lot of people in both fandom and in general audiences alike have made it clear that they're tired of Pepper-In-Distress syndrome in every goddamn movie she's ever in.
How can it possibly cheapen Tony as a character?
Worse, how can it both cheapen his character *and* make him the center of the film at once?
Pepper was in distress in Avengers? Wasn't everyone *except* Pepper in distress in Avengers?

So you're right, you have given reason, they just don't make any sense. I stand corrected.

Now I don't like Tony as the center either, but I personally think that having him screw up can use that centerness to good use, and also force other characters in the center to help redeem him. It makes abundant sense to me. Plus, Ultron stories don't actually need "mommy" to be in danger, the last one in Mighty Avengers, for example.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is online now  
Old 11-11-2013, 09:52 AM   #96
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 5,894
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
Pepper was only ever kidnapped in 1 Iron Man film. How is the audience tired of Pepper in distress? She isn't Mary Jane Watson who was kidnapped every time she walked out the door by the villains. In the first film, Iron Monger chases her a whole minute during the climax, and she helps beat him. 2nd film, Stark saves her from being blown up. She was in danger for half a second. Only in IM3 was she in danger for a lengthy period.
Which she followed by defeating the final villain. Pepper is such a great character, dude. That's part of why her relationship with Tony was so vital that she could be the victor of the story eventually.

Regardless, this may all be moot if she's not in Avengers 2 anyway, just like Jan isn't in every Ultron story.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is online now  
Old 11-11-2013, 09:59 AM   #97
HUMANIMAL
...
 
HUMANIMAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,895
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5


__________________
LET'S PUT A SMILE ON THAT FACE!!!

MY FANART AND MANIPS
HUMANIMAL is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 10:05 AM   #98
Spider-Fan
The First Avenger Mod!!!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
Spider-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the neighborhood!
Posts: 38,923
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Which she followed by defeating the final villain. Pepper is such a great character, dude. That's part of why her relationship with Tony was so vital that she could be the victor of the story eventually.

Regardless, this may all be moot if she's not in Avengers 2 anyway, just like Jan isn't in every Ultron story.
True, but I do think if Stark takes Pym's role, it's a wasted opportunity not to use Pepper at some point in the story.

Spider-Fan is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 10:08 AM   #99
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 11,683
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by xeno000 View Post
We know you hate the idea of Tony Stark creating Ultron, Sam. You keep pounding away at this ad nauseam. But you don't have any way of knowing how Whedon is going to handle the robot's personality and its obsessions. For all you know, Ultron might not even have an Oedipus Complex the way he does in the comic books.

Perhaps Ultron hates his creator for other reasons. Feige has said that Ultron hates humanity for its free will, and that Tony Stark is the poster boy for free will in the MCU. It's easy to see why an AI that was created for one purpose and not given any choice in its actions would, upon developing sentience, hate the one(s) who deprived him of his freedom. An Ultron who sees himself as a virtual slave and Tony Stark as his chief master, with all of humanity somehow culpable for his plight because he was created to protect them, could be quite fascinating. There would be no need to involve Pepper in this scenario (and yes, we know how much you hate her, too).
And that's why I agree with you (I think....?), that the whole Oedipus Complex won't even be explored in the movie at all. Some people here are quick to equate Hank & Janet's twisted love-hate relationship with Tony & Pepper's love-love relationship and think that the Oedipus complex can just be transferred simply enough to that same environment, but it's a lot more complicated than that. So no, I don't think we'll see daddy issues or mom-love from Ultron at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson King View Post
I think SHIELD is going to take the place of Pym as the focus of Ultron's hatred, as I believe SHIELD creates Ultron patterned after the AI in Tony's suits, but with other upgrades based on other members of the Avengers (i.e. tech from Destroyer, etc.).
I think SHIELD is behind Ultron, too; but I think the design elements come from a different Stark than Tony. I don't think SHIELD has access to JARVIS' AI at all, as much as they'd like to. Instead, I think the physical design of Ultron came from Howard Stark, combined with AI and robotics research of an Arnim Zola who is/was playing a Werner Von Braun role to SHIELD during the Cold War. And yes, other things like the Destroyer armor, Aether, vibranium, Extremis Armor and the like could easily be factored into the design as well, making Ultron indirectly the product of several of the Avengers' mythos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
First off, can the insulting tone of your posts. If you want to debate me on an intellectual level, then go ahead. I have read almost every Ultron story EVER written and I know damn well all there is to know about his vendetta with his creator. It is not I who comes off looking foolish when you make claims like this, it is you. So grow up and argue like an adult. I never once went out of my way to insult you. I debated your logic. Learn something.
Point taken. There's a *lot* of jerks around here with "Spider-" and "Spidey-" prefixes in their usernames who go out of their way to be insulting to me (and others), and I wrongly mistook you for one of them and stooped to their level. My apologies.


Quote:
Second (moving on to your ACTUAL points), no he wasn't created by an A-list hero. But, no less, he was created by a flawed hero. A-list, B-list, C-list, D-list, etc. it doesn't matter. He is the enduring legacy of a flawed hero. Hence the TRAGEDY of the story. If Ultron had been the creation of say Baron Zemo in the comics, I guarantee you he wouldn't have the legacy he has endured in the comics. He would have been a more generic, less personal, and less interesting villain. The twisted family dynamic makes him unique. Not because he is an evil robot. The Arnim Zola idea takes away the family element of Ultron. So, what would be even the point of using Ultron?

Third, Stark is the best character to maintain Ultron's family dynamic. He actually is in a committed relationship with Pepper, so the set-up for it to work is all there. No one cares about Arnim Zola, thus if Ultron attacks him, guess what? The audience won't care! Raimi went too far in SM3 to make the villains have a personal connection to Peter Parker. But, he is right that most CLASSIC villains do have some personal connection to the hero. Ultron has a major personal connection to the Avengers. Taking away that makes the conflict less personal, and thus, less interesting to the public.
Having Zola and Howard Stark together being responsible for creating Ultron would create that family dynamic. Ultron could easily transfer his homicidal hatred of Howard Stark (long since gone) to the surviving progeny. It would give Ultron an easy, and fascinating, reason to go after a totally unsuspecting Tony Stark.





Quote:
Pepper was only ever kidnapped in 1 Iron Man film. How is the audience tired of Pepper in distress? She isn't Mary Jane Watson who was kidnapped every time she walked out the door by the villains. In the first film, Iron Monger chases her a whole minute during the climax, and she helps beat him. 2nd film, Stark saves her from being blown up. She was in danger for half a second. Only in IM3 was she in danger for a lengthy period.
I won't argue with you there. I'm not an opponent of Pepper Potts or Gwyn at all (just to the cheesy Rescue Armor concept), but I'm just telling you about the Pepper hate I read again and again here and in plenty of other fansites. Even Gwyn has alluded to it in some of her interviews over the years.

Quote:
As for it being a Stark centered universe, Avengers wasn't Tony Stark and his amazing friends. In fact, Captain America had MORE screen time than Iron Man did in Avengers. Also, like it or not, Iron Man is the most popular character. He is going to have a major role in the movie, no matter what. Only in his case, it would make sense to the story and not feel forced. Whedon did a good job at balancing so many characters. Even if Stark is Ultron's chief architect, the other characters will still be vital to the story.
Making Tony create Ultron *does* feel forced to me, because I have yet to hear a believable reason from anybody for that to happen. Everybody fixates on the fact that he's definitely *qualified* to design a killer robot; but nobody can come up with a valid reason for him to want to do so. Especially considering that (a) he's out of the weapons business now, (b) he's all about the human element being more important than the mechanical one, and (c) he despises these fascist and globalist governments who keep trying to commandeer/steal his tech for evil ends. Tony Stark would actually be the last person on earth to think that designing a killer robot is somehow a good idea.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014

Last edited by cherokeesam; 11-11-2013 at 10:12 AM.
cherokeesam is offline  
Old 11-11-2013, 10:18 AM   #100
Spider-Fan
The First Avenger Mod!!!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
Spider-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the neighborhood!
Posts: 38,923
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Point taken. There's a *lot* of jerks around here with "Spider-" and "Spidey-" prefixes in their usernames who go out of their way to be insulting to me (and others), and I wrongly mistook you for one of them and stooped to their level. My apologies.
No problem


Quote:
Having Zola and Howard Stark together being responsible for creating Ultron would create that family dynamic. Ultron could easily transfer his homicidal hatred of Howard Stark (long since gone) to the surviving progeny. It would give Ultron an easy, and fascinating, reason to go after a totally unsuspecting Tony Stark.
My main question to this would be why didn't Ultron come out years ago then? If it is because he was incomplete, I don't think he'd carry a grudge to someone who died trying to make him in the 70s. I think it will be carried against the one who finished him. If he was shutdown due to being dangerous, then Howard screwed up by not mentioning that to anyone.

Quote:
I won't argue with you there. I'm not an opponent of Pepper Potts or Gwyn at all (just to the cheesy Rescue Armor concept), but I'm just telling you about the Pepper hate I read again and again here and in plenty of other fansites. Even Gwyn has alluded to it in some of her interviews over the years.
I think Pepper has avoided the damsel in distress label in these movies pretty way. Also, Whedon's track record in regard to females being able to fend for themselves is very strong. Under a different writer/director this might be a more warranted complaint. But, even in the IM3 commentary, Pepper pounding Killian was Whedon's favorite part in the movie (according to Shane Black). I think he would honor Pepper.

Quote:
Making Tony create Ultron *does* feel forced to me, because I have yet to hear a believable reason from anybody for that to happen. Everybody fixates on the fact that he's definitely *qualified* to design a killer robot; but nobody can come up with a valid reason for him to do so. Especially considering that (a) he's out of the weapons business now, (b) he's all about the human element being more important than the mechanical one, and (c) he despises these fascist and globalist governments who keep trying to commandeer/steal his tech for evil ends. Tony Stark would actually be the last person on earth to think that designing a killer robot is somehow a good idea.
The reason I would go with as his motivation (based on what we have seen so far) is so he doesn't have to be Iron Man as much. Stark knows the Chitari may still come back and threats are still out there, but at the same time he can't ignore his life anymore and make 42 different Iron Man suits waiting for the Chitari to come back. Perhaps with Banner's help (I think Banner will be involved in the creation of Ultron no matter who does it....they will have to explain his absence somehow), he tried to minimize the world's need for Iron Man. Not to retire, but so he and Pepper can live more normally. Iron Man 3 was all about removing this distractions in his life. Ultron might be an extension of that.

Spider-Fan is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:37 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.