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#326 |
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I still don't hate Superman Returns. I used to adore it for the unabashed love letter to Donner that it was, but over time the film has gotten stale. Stale in tone and and stale in story. It's so concerned with recapturing that magic of the first two films it forgets to have it's own identity, leaving the film feeling oddly cold and distant. It had moments, small moments of shining goodness. The action was very fun to watch and I loved Spacey as Lex, but Routh seemed lost on the shuffle of Lois and Lex. I think Lois had more dialogue than Clark and Supes combined. To make it worse she was just characterized without any heart or soul.
I wouldn't hate the "Superman with a son" angle if it was written with any sort of clarity. The rooftop scene with Lois worked, the only interaction with Lex and Supes worked, the airplane scene in still one of the best superhero moments in film history, the finale is rousing and well constructed and John Ottmans score is at times wonderful. |
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#327 |
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But it was the whole Zod and co. vs Son of Jor-el story all over again.
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#328 | |
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True, Goyer might have renamed the guy Admiral Doz (or some such) instead. But pretty much any Kryptonian bad guy is going to draw comparisons to SII and be called a Zod clone anyway. So… in for a penny, in for a pound. |
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#329 |
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Singer just leaned on the Donner era far too much...and while I think Brandon Routh was okay, he looked way too young for Superman. Kevin Spacey was great as Lex, and Kate Bosworth's version of Lois reminded me of Erica Durance on "Smallville". Frank Langella was far too gentle as Perry, and Sam Huntington's performance just annoyed me after a while. I actually liked James Marsden as Richard White, even though it resulted in Cyclops being killed off for "X3". I also liked the idea of Superman having a kid, but the history Singer created for the film was too vague.
On the whole, "Returns" was far too dependent on what had come before; it's still light-years ahead of "Superman III", though. |
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#330 |
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Now that I've seen MOS, I realize the biggest thing I didn't like about SR is it had a bad Lois and the relationship between Supes and Lois was...ugh. I don't even want to talk about because it will make me mad. Not too mention the super dickery on display like stalking and not saying good bye. Jeeze
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#331 | |
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But it at least changed many things around, MOS Zod wasnt SMII Zod, they were very different in fact, despite having similar goals. Its like Batman '89 Joker vs TDK Joker, same character, some similarities, but two very different takes. MOS being an origin story obviously meant changes from SMII as well. I think it did it different enough for the movie to have its own identity while still paying homage.
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#332 | |
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But, I'm glad you find the heart in it. |
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#333 | |||||
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While not the best love interest, SR's Lois-Superman relationship was at the very least different from the average one, where they meet, kinda like each other, he saves her and she falls for him. In SR, it was a very difficult situation. He made a huge mistake, she loves him but wants to move on, she needs it and have tried. But she can't because she loves him. But even when she loves him and even when she doesn't love his new boyfriend as much, she must stand for him and say no to her true love. She must move on even if she wanted to stay with Superman. And that was difficult... but not as much as when, later on, she finds out her son is Superman's. Won't change anyone's opinion, but this alone is far more innovative and complex than the average superhero film's romance. Where, even if there's a second candidate, he's usually ugly and/or pedantic so we can easily hate him and prefer our hero over him. Singer decided to avoid that easy route and gave us a new boyfriend who's as heroic as Superman. Much closer to real life. And far less overused. ******************************************* Quote:
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Now what you say about the two Jokers is very interesting because they had the exact same purpose. They were very similar, except that Batman had no problems with killing in B89, which made a difference in Nicholson's Joker, since there's no point in trying to make Batman kill. |
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#334 | |||
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At this point, I been having this same debate for 6 years on SHH. So we are not going to agree and I'm okay with that. I actually don't' even remember SR anymore. I've only seen it once and will never see it again. I have watched MOS at least 20 times now. That to me proves which is the better film. Gratuitous kissing of Lois Lane or not.... Hell I actually thought it was a smart choice to have them kiss at that time. It was a perfect even though destruction was everyone...lol |
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#335 | ||||
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In MOS the kiss felt like that Rachel Dawes-Bruce Wayne kiss. Out of the blue, because executives apparently asked for one. Quote:
Now, how doesn't it make sense? Quote:
Now, I'm discussing the movie. Making a sequel after 26 years is certainly a huge risk. Quote:
And well, if you saw SR once, then I can't expect you to remember everything. But at least see it twice, just to make sure you dislike it. |
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#336 | ||||
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I have always said that a good Superman film HAS to have a good Lois/Supes relationship because men are not the only ones who like Superman and women want to see him kiss Lois. We have our needs too ![]() Quote:
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While it's good to be unique in some things this is not one of those instances. Sometimes you need the tropes. They aren't bad because everyone else does them too. No, I will NEVER watch SR again. I already know I don't like it. I will watch Superman: Brainiac Attacks before I watch SR again. I don't need to rewatch it to know I'm not going to change my mind. Last edited by charl_huntress; 11-17-2013 at 01:36 PM. |
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#337 | ||||
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MOS did great in that sense. Then the kiss reminded us that no matter how good the character is portrayed, this is formula. May I ask when did you see SR? Last edited by Senator Pleasury; 11-17-2013 at 02:04 PM. |
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#338 | |||||
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In the theaters. I left unhappy. I do own a copy. I bought the collectors set which has all the movies. I just don't like the movie. It has nothing in it I want to see. Like I said, I'd watch Brianiac attacks before I watch SR. That is equally bad, but it at least it's got some of the things I like. While SR has nothing I like. No fights, no good Lois/Supes, no fights...no good Lois/Supes...no fights. You get the picture right? Last edited by charl_huntress; 11-17-2013 at 02:13 PM. |
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#339 | |||||
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Now if you pay attention to RT, many superhero movies get 80+ % of good reviews. MOS' rating was outstandingly low. Quote:
Oh, it did work. It did remind people this was the same formula as usual. Quote:
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#340 | ||||||
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#341 | |||
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#342 | ||||||||
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Now, one thing Donner didn't do right was sometimes avoiding the consequence of Superman's actions. Like when he turned back time or have Lois the amnesia kiss. The easy way out. Singer did that right in his movie. Superman's actions had then consequences. I see, therefore, improvement and a reason why it was good. Snyder also took this way with his take on Superman. And Superman showed how lonely he feels in this planet in SR, which is another thing I'm glad Snyder kept for MOS. Quote:
Not that it's relevant (I myself don't care for reviews), but you said that MOS had "washed [SR] away." And I see that even when they did better financially, it was not all a bed of roses. Anyways, I don't know whether your stance on the sequel is "What does that matter? It got a sequel" or "I have no faith in any of their plans." Quote:
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That doesn't mean that I myself wasn't annoyed at one point when they decided to keep STM dialogues just for the sake of it. |
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#343 | ||||||
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#344 |
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Aside from it being one huge rehash with very little originality, my main problem with "Superman Returns" is how they introduced Lois' son Jason. I'm not against Superman having a kid, but the way it happened goes all the way back to him and Lois shacking up in "Superman II" (a scene which even Margot Kidder says was wrong in retrospect). Not only is he conceived out of marriage, but according to Singer's "vague history", Superman just abandons Lois (and by extension, Jason) without a single word? Some will say, "maybe he didn't know", but how would that be possible for a man who can literally hear everything? Throw in the creepy "stalker by the window" scene, and it turns the Man of Steel into the most lazy, irresponsible parent on the planet.
If a future film has Superman as father to another child, I hope they do it the right way, because he's meant to be a symbol of all the right choices, none of the wrong ones. |
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#345 | |||||||||||
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Singer gave Superman the same kind of situation - feeling lonely, having an impossible love -but this time thee was no easy way out. I don't get your "Singer didn't even plan on doing this"? Who says so? On what basis? Quote:
Now, MOS had many good things, but suicidal Pa Kent and Superman throwing a giant spaceship over a populated city are as questionable as Superman having a child or spying on Lois. Quote:
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I... I am sorry? How is that... any wrong or reprehensible? I mean, after 1970? Quote:
That said, yes. It is explained in the movie he didn't say good-bye to Lois because if he had done it, he wouldn't have been able to leave. I think that was completely unnecessary. The mere fact of Superman having to leave was enough to have Lois angry at him. The whole inability to say good-bye was just a bad choice. Quote:
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And as soon as he found out he was Jason's parent, he went to Lois's house and talked to him and told Lois he was always going to be around to protect them. When you don't know you're a father it's hard to be an exemplary father. Quote:
What's outstanding in him is not that he does everything right, but that he tries his as much as he can to achieve that. |
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#346 | |||||
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Again, I don't care you like the movie. I just didn't. Nothing is going to change that. Last edited by charl_huntress; 11-20-2013 at 12:42 PM. |
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#347 | |
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#348 | |||
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#349 |
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One thing I love about SUPERMAN RETURNS is that Superman doesn't actually try to steal Lois. When he realizes he's more or less missed out on his chance at happiness, instead of sulking about it, he more or less immediately throws himself into his "mission" again.
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#350 | ||
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2018 movie ratings out of 10:
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