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Old 11-16-2013, 02:33 PM   #326
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Yeah, all the rest of the characters have been changed and modernized, but Mandarin... oh no, that's impossible. We must turn him into a joke and a fake identity or else he will be exactly as 50 years ago by default.
Yeah,it seems to some people there's only two choices regarding the Mandarin: Racist stereotype or Witless buffoon. Nothing else could possibly work.

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Old 11-16-2013, 02:45 PM   #327
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Going from some of the commentary I've seen as of late, I think about 90% of this community doesn't either. With most folks, I notice that "I like" = "great movie", and "I dislike" = "It wuz turrible!!!" No exceptions. I hardly ever hear "Not my cup of tea" anymore; nor will anyone admit to having guilty pleasures.

Too many people seem to take ownership in their taste in movies. Music too, for that matter, but that's a discussion for another...forum I suppose.
Oh, I agree. I think some of my favorite "plot holes but aren't plot holes" came from last year, when TDKR came out, although this year i've seen some doozies lol.

"How does Bruce get back into Gotham, PLOT HOLE"

Errr....no, more like plot contrivance.

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Yeah,it seems to some people there's only two choices regarding the Mandarin: Racist stereotype or Witless buffoon. Nothing else could possibly work.
Or, you know, ass kicking Martial Artist, who is also a brilliant scientist, ala the comics.

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Old 11-16-2013, 02:51 PM   #328
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Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

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Yeah,it seems to some people there's only two choices regarding the Mandarin: Racist stereotype or Witless buffoon. Nothing else could possibly work.
His name is a Chinese dialect, and a rank in the Chinese army
I don't see why his comic version is a racist stereotype

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Old 11-16-2013, 02:58 PM   #329
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His name is a Chinese dialect, and a rank in the Chinese army
I don't see why his comic version is a racist stereotype
Someone will probably dig up a panel or two depicting the "yellow peril" art style used in the mid 60's and attempt to make the point that that is what we would've had if they "stuck to the comics"

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Old 11-16-2013, 03:06 PM   #330
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Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

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Oh no, I'm a wounded Marvel fanboy, you. just hurt my day *sniff*
Sometimes I prefer DC, other times I prefer Marvel, the loyalty to one over the other or more than the other isn't my kind of thing
Did you own Bendis's Avengers? Then you owned the wrong Avengers, even Batman can suck under the wrong writer

That's the percentage of the staff reviewing it and enjoying it
Out of 243 reviewers, 227 liked it
Average rating 7.6/10
Check it again
Just did, 227 reviews out of 243 reviews is 93%, (well 93.41 % ,but who's counting) very simple division.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/iron_man/

Anyway, you are absolutely correct that even Batman sucks under the
wrong writer, and the opposite is true, back in the 1980's you could
take the lamest character ever, and bring in Frank Miller or Alan Moore,
and you'd end up with a timeless classic.

The Avengers are a personal taste thing - I suppose I did enjoy
John Byrne's run on West Coast Avengers, and the classic story
that introduces Rogue (when she takes out Thor, Iron Man, the Vision,
Captain America, and most of the other Avengers, mostly by herself).

But, otherwise, neither the art nor storylines have ever appealed to me.

The film was very enjoyable, I liked it, but didn't love it, (which I said in my original post) and raised the bar for action in superhero movies, however the characters are very one-dimensional.

But that's just IMO, and thus I suggest it is underrated.

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Old 11-16-2013, 03:08 PM   #331
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I like that you ignored my post, refuting your flimsy argument. WE got the Mandarin, he had characteristics of the comics, all fused into one. The only differences he had was that there were no power rings, and he was a white dude, and not chinese.

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Old 11-16-2013, 03:16 PM   #332
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Moments i hate to see in a Superman story, doesn't excuse The Man of Steel
Ok we get it you like Stalkerman: The Movie sooooo much better and much rather prefer the boring Superman from the Silver Age who saves kittens compared to the hero who sacrifices everything to save us from harm. Just remember there's a reason that had to be rebooted and that the hardcore Batfans continue to trollface us.

Action like that is a part of Superman just as much as Chris Reeve himself.

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Old 11-16-2013, 03:43 PM   #333
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Oh, I agree. I think some of my favorite "plot holes but aren't plot holes" came from last year, when TDKR came out, although this year i've seen some doozies lol.

"How does Bruce get back into Gotham, PLOT HOLE"

Errr....no, more like plot contrivance.


Out of interest (and leaving our discussion of Iron Man 3 aside)
what is a plot hole in your opinion ?

Could you give us some examples or what you consider plot holes ?

I'm not getting at you, but I'm interested in what your threshold is
between plot hole and contrivance is ?


It seems the line between plot hole and plot contrivance is a pretty arbitrary one. Even when you look at sites like this:

http://www.totalfilm.com/features/40...star-wars-1977

The line between hole and contrivance doesn't seem terribly clear.

Also, there are always explanations for so-called holes, I think the question is, do we accept those explanations ?



Here's a plot hole for you, Tron Legacy (this one is, as you say, a doozy)
CLU plans to invade the real world, with an army of digital soldiers, tanks and jets. How will the digital technology work in the real world ? A fair question,
but the staggering question, is how will his entire army and all its vehicles fit into the tiny basement room which is the portal to our world?

A little bit of dialogue or some minor additional writing/scenes could have explained this....but didn't. As such, it's a plot hole.

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Old 11-16-2013, 04:28 PM   #334
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Forget it, I thought you were responding to something else I said.

I'll save this post for another time.

cheers.


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Old 11-16-2013, 04:52 PM   #335
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Fair comment.

I think I did mention that perhaps plot holes might have been
the wrong word for some of my comments.
Well, we've gotten to the point where we're starting to argue semantics(what is/isn't a plot hole), but the distinction here is important because it's the difference between personal preference and a problem with the film itself. Plot holes are just logical inconsistencies; they signify bad storytelling and film making in general. I'd say that their presence isn't so much a matter of opinion per se, but the degree to which they bother one person to the next is. All of the things you listed are a matter of preference, which isn't necessarily a ding on the film in the same way a plot hole would be. There are plenty of things that rub me the wrong way in what I would otherwise consider good movies, for example.

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My problems with the Mandarin twist are not so much a plot hole, but really a plot idea that doesn't work.
A few things -

  • It does work. Every intelligence agency on the planet surmised that the Mandarin was in the middle east; Rhodey's little sting ops in Pakistan are evidence enough of that. All the while, him and his cronies were living it up in Miami, exactly where nobody expected they would be. Hence, the misdirection aspect of the ruse worked.


  • Furthermore, everyone was running scared of a middle eastern terrorist bogeyman while it was an unassuming American white-collar type. That takes care of the 'giving the people a target' angle. Killian was successfully able to pull all the strings while only the people closest to him were aware of it. He managed to have the public and the authorities alike under his proverbial thumb, and they didn't even know what he really looked like or where he actually was. I can't understand how people can say "it just doesn't work" when it absolutely works, all while being completely congruent with the villain's intentions.


  • Lastly, the whole ruse gave him an edge that married up with his goal of controlling the White House - controlling the world's most feared terrorist organization at the same time. "Endless supply and demand" as he put it, to have a perpetual flow of money and resources funneled directly into his research. Take note that some 13 year grudge that Killian had been harboring for Tony, yet another one of the many apocryphal platitudes being strewn about regarding the villain, doesn't fit into this plot anywhere. The scheme involving Tony was entirely opportunistic; the mansion attack was retaliatory and certainly intended to kill him. Maya even had to convince Killian not to do so later once they found out that he was still alive. In the villain's own words - "So you were trying to save Stark when he threatened us." There's another fallacy that we can put to bed - that the villain's motivation was some cheesy revenge plot.
P.S. Trevor Slattery was not the Mandarin. Everyone who keeps railing about Iron Man's nemesis being turned into a joke doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding the matter, as it has been very clearly established: Killian is this continuity's Mandarin. Anyone who keeps focusing on Trevor is looking in the wrong direction. It's the equivalent of saying that Ra's Al Ghul sucked because he was a bald Japanese man with 10 minutes of screen time. There's having an opinion, but then there's believing a fallacy, which is the exact type of opinion all of these "Mandarin was a joke" folks are holding onto. Seems like the world is flat all over again.

Anyway, Killian's personality was generic, I'll give you that, but he was anything but a generic villain. If anything, that may have been the point. The idea that an invisible, unassuming everyman could be capable of doing what he did is downright terrifying. To mastermind that sort of plot, misdirection and all, while staying behind the scenes the was nothing short of brilliant. It was unquestionably the most clever and complex plan among all of the MCU's villains. Again, people are focusing far too much on the humor aspect of the twist and outright ignoring the bigger picture entirely. For as much flack as Marvel gets about having dull villains with cookie cutter motivations, they finally introduce an idea that really shakes things up, and what happens? Even more backlash. What did people want instead? A conventional villain with a run-of-the-mill, mano-a-mano showdown at the film's climax. The primary criteria for differentiating him? Use an Asian actor, all for the sake of authenticity. So, forget the plot to control America's government and an international terrorist network, forget the clever misdirection and those chilling propaganda videos, let's go with a typical 'you versus me' Pure, creative gold.

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The "resolve everything in 2 minutes at the end" montage was more of a comment on what I perceive as bad storytelling.
Agree wholeheartedly. Probably my biggest issue with the film.

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but come on, doesn't the whole, challenge-the-terrorist-to-attack-you-at-home-and-not-prepare-defences-when-you-have-an-army-in-the-basement
thing kind of grate on you. If it's something that happens for the convenience of the story, but doesn't make any sense then it's a plot hole.
The reasons why you think it makes no sense are the exact reasons why it does make sense. Tony was being an arrogant dumbass, quite frankly, and he clearly wasn't thinking straight. Consider his behavior and state of mind up to that point in time. The sleep deprivation is a huge one. I'm not sure what your day to day schedule is like, but try going 3 days without sleep and see how well you can function. I can hardly type if I make it to 36 hours myself, and that's not even an uncommon occurrence in my line of work. The lack of sleep is a direct result of his being under a great deal of stress, only compounded further by his relationship with Pepper. Enough emphasis isn't being placed upon Happy being hospitalized as well; it was the straw that broke the camel's back. All of this against the backdrop of him suffering from PTSD. Try and find some sufferers of that condition who still manage to function normally in their day to day lives. With all that being said, your assessment of him is right on the money. It was arrogant, it was stupid, and it was dangerous; however, it's not that far fetched when you consider all the variables. Tony Stark made a mistake, in this case, it happened to be an especially grave one that could've cost him and Pepper their lives. The first thing I thought while the mansion attack was going on was how much of an idiot he was, for provoking the whole scenario and not properly preparing for it. I think that was the whole point.

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Dude, that has got to be a plot hole, (although it's not as big as the plot hole
in Raiders of the Lost Ark). You could post an explanation of why that makes total sense if you like, but does that sound like Tony Stark to you ? The guy has a back-up plan for everything.
That just isn't a fair way to put it at all, because you're outright dismissing things that factor into why he was behaving the way he was. You can't just say - "This is Tony Stark, no matter what", you have to consider context and perspective. Of course it doesn't sound like Tony Stark, but that was the point - he wasn't in a normal state of mind. Superheroes can make mistakes; they're human and vulnerable too. The film makers were bold enough to illustrate that, and once again only receive backlash because of it.


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Old 11-16-2013, 05:13 PM   #336
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Out of interest (and leaving our discussion of Iron Man 3 aside)
what is a plot hole in your opinion ?

Could you give us some examples or what you consider plot holes ?
Venom knowing about Flint Marko's Daughter, despite Peter Parker having known nothing of his family AND Venom having no prior contact with him is bar none the best example off the top of my head.

Oh, and Visualiza is killing it.

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Old 11-16-2013, 07:06 PM   #337
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It does seem that we are arguing semantics, and I admit that you are probably correct in that most of my problems with this film are personal preference based.

I have enjoyed the thought and logic you have employed in your defence of Iron Man 3. However I still disagree with you on the following points.

1) The mandarin twist.

You essentially explained that Killian's plot worked, by describing it in detail from the story, that is not arguing, that's remembering.
Sorry, that's a bit disrespectful, apologies.


Also, I should clarify, I'm not disputing whether Killian's plot was clever or would actually work within the context of the story. I should apologize as I have not explained myself well here.

Anyway, my problem with it, from a story point of view, is that its depiction of the Mandarin ignores about 50 years of source material, particularly the two most distinctive characteristics of the Mandarin -his ethnic identity and his power rings. Surely there was a way to integrate these ?

So really it's about whether this is a depiction of the Mandarin that works for us as an audience ? Reboots and reimaginings have clearly shown that a character can be significantly changed for the big screen and still work. However, a degree of consistency is necessary for it to still be that character
- take away all of his essential charateristics, and its not that character anymore. (kind of like the League of Extraordinary gentlemen film vs the League of Extraordinary gentlemen comic book, other than the names and names of a couple of characters there is no similarity at all, which is why the film doesn't particularly work all that well).


So this one does not work for me, and yes, this is personal preference.

I suppose the Trevor Slatterly thing would work , if the movie was a standalone film, without the context of Iron Man and his mythology, in that case it would be pretty clever, and well pulled off by Sir Ben.

So, if you don't know anything about Iron Man, it's great.

This is different from Batman Begins, in that A) anyone who knows anything about Batman would have instantly worked it out.

B) the depiction of Ra's is far more consistent with the comic book depiction, despite significant changes, than the Killian/Slattery Mandarin is. That's why it work.


Again, this is personal preference. So we probably don't need to argue it any further.

2) Tony's screw up.

I like heroes who are flawed, and make mistakes but there comes a point when a mistake is so inconsistent with that hero's character so as to challenge our suspension of disbelief.

So, I accept what you say about Tony Stark's struggle with sleep-deprivation, PTSD, and well, being an arrogant jerk.
However, this is the same Tony stark who knocked together an arc reactor and an iron man suit in a cave, while being kept alive by a car battery. I suspect he was somewhat PTSD'd and sleep, food and everything deprived at that time, plus the constant threats of death.

He did not have a basement full of Iron Man suits that could be activated remotely at a moment's notice, yet still dealt with a small army.

You're telling me that this is the same guy, at home, where all his resources, technology and of course the basement full of suits, can't deal with a couple of helicopters, not jets, but helicopters, armed with missiles ?

That is a leap too far, and its defiance of logic puts it firmly in the
category of plot hole.


I have greatly enjoyed your posts, as they are well thought out and employ logic. I suspect we will have to agree to disagree.

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Old 11-16-2013, 07:35 PM   #338
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On point one, who cares about ethnicity and power rings? I know we're starting to get that MCU of the comics feel (where suspension of disbelief will be tested), but even that is just dumb, and I am willing to bet people would think it's a ripoff of GL.

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Old 11-16-2013, 08:00 PM   #339
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- The Avengers: The action and visuals were awesome but the movie really drags up until the assault on the Hellicarrier and then the battle in New York. The story and characters were just not strong enough to carry the first 70-80 minutes of the movie and Whedon's writing has just turned me off as I've gotten older, it just really undercuts the stakes and importance of the movie.

- Spider-Man 2: I absolutely never understood where the thought that this is one of the best superhero movies ever came from. I thought TASM was way better than any of the Spider-Man movies.


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Old 11-17-2013, 12:16 AM   #340
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Irrelevant. It being faithful to any sort of source material is, well, immaterial if it isn't actually well portrayed on film. This idea of MoS being faithful to whatever cherry-picked source material just dances around the issue, and I see this sort of reasoning peddled all the time. It's devoid of logic.

Logic, as important as it is to narratives of all kinds is not the end all be all of any artistic endeavor. As in all things in life () a Nick Myer directed Star Trek film has the answers: "Logic is but the beginning of wisdom."

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Old 11-17-2013, 01:43 AM   #341
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Logic, as important as it is to narratives of all kinds is not the end all be all of any artistic endeavor. As in all things in life () a Nick Myer directed Star Trek film has the answers: "Logic is but beginning of wisdom."

Nice one bro ! I've been getting crazy with arguing with people based on logic in this thread and a couple of other ones. Probably because logic and reason are a part of my job. Good to be reminded that logic isn't the be all and end all, and logic alone can you leave you cold at the end of the day, even if you're right.

By coincidence, my wife was watch watching Wrath of Khan this morning (it was just the closest DVD to the player).

And You've just given me a great idea for a thread.

cheers.

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Old 11-17-2013, 02:33 AM   #342
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On point one, who cares about ethnicity and power rings? I know we're starting to get that MCU of the comics feel (where suspension of disbelief will be tested), but even that is just dumb, and I am willing to bet people would think it's a ripoff of GL.

This is something we will not agree on, in all likelihood, but regardless I would like to reply to what you've just said there.

If after what I'm about to say, you still don't agree, that's cool, but have a read anyway.

Here's the central part of my argument:

You can only change a character so much, before he stops being the character he was, and becomes something else.

( Did you like Twilight ? It's about Vampires who sparkle in sunlight and survive without drinking blood ? Well pardon me Twi-hards but vulnerability to sunlight and blood drinking are pretty much the things that make vampires ....well vampires. If they don't have those elements, they aren't really vampires are they, maybe we should call them something else).

I hated Twilight, among the many reasons, was the reason I just mentioned.


Who cares about ethnicity and power rings ?

What makes the Mandarin, the Mandarin ? What are the most recognizable and distinctive features of the Mandarin?

I'm guessing if you asked most Iron man fans (and not just people who watched IM 3) they might say something like this.....

1) he's Iron Man's arch-enemy.

2) he's Chinese, and often elements of Chinese culture and locations
appear in storylines that involve him. Or at least they have between 1964 and 2012, which is quite a while in comic books.

3) he uses rings of power that give him different super powers.
(now I actually thought having the organisation he controlled in the film, called the ten rings, was actually not a bad adaptation of the power ring concept, although I must be honest in that I expected to see a power ring of some kind, or some similar device).

So, IM 3 changes 2 of these, at least, arch-enemy wise hmmmm debatable.

So, let's do a reversal, we take Iron Man and make a couple of changes he's now Japanese, doesn't use a suit of armour, but instead fights crime with some other weapon, maybe even has super powers, like breathing fire.

Furthermore, his name isn't Tony Stark anymore, it's something else.

But we still call him Iron Man. Does this work ?

I'll agree with you that some changes are cosmetic, but the ones you are talking about are kind of central to the Mandarin character. If you make such changes, it isn't the mandarin anymore, just a character called the Mandarin.

Yes, comic characters often do have to change in order to appear on the big screen
(although not that much, e.g. Patrick Stewart's Professor Xavier is pretty damn similar to Prof X from the comics, now the Juggernaut in Last Stand was very different in looks and somewhat similar in powers, but similar enough to arguably still be the Juggernaut, why ? because the most important thing about the Juggernaut is that he's unstoppable, which he was in Last Stand, which is why it worked, mostly anyway. What if the Juggernaut was still called the Juggernaut but his power was teleportation (no super strength/invulnerability), and he was Korean, but still called himself the Juggernaut, would the Xmen recognize him when he showed up ? )

So, what I'm saying is, that they changed the character so much that really he wasn't the Mandarin any more (and yes I'm referring to both Trevor as the Mandarin, hilarious, but not the Mandarin -which is a shame, as Sir Ben is amazing at villains, and would have made a fantastic Mandarin, and FFS,
he's playing a Maori in Ender's game, he could probably play anyone and we'd believe it...

sorry, got distracted, anyway, both Trevor as the Mandarin (but not the Mandarin) and Aldrich Killian as the Mandarin (which I argue is not the Mandarin, that I would associate with Iron Man, but a guy referring to himself as the Mandarin)

If you still disagree, and don't think it's too much of a change to work,
that's cool. Discussion over.


I'm not sure I agree on your GL ripoff point.

- Anyone who knows anything about Iron Man (not just from the movies) would not make such a mistake.

- For people who don't know the difference (and we're talking the difference between Marvel and DC here), if they did see a Mandarin, on screen using power rings, hopefully they won't think it's a GL ripoff, because no doubt it would be done so much better than the GL movie (which was not great).

- but really, if people did make that mistake, so what ?
They probably aren't comic book fans, so the mistake is completely understandable.
Do you know the difference between Kant and Hegel in terms of their contribution to Ethics ? ( I have very little understanding of that one)

Do you know the difference between a Mareva order and an Anton Piller's order in terms of judicial orders ? (I do, but I wouldn't expect 99% of other people to)

Do you know the difference between a Quark and a meson ? (I have no idea )

Do any of these things make any difference to your life at all ? Probably not,
so why worry about it. It's not like Disney/Marvel is going to lose money, because people are going to think "Better not see the new Iron Man film, because the bad guy uses power rings, and that's clearly a ripoff of Green lantern."
People go to see Iron Man movies for .....Iron Man, the villain is probably at best a secondary consideration.
Did you go to see the Avengers because the Chitauri were in it, or Loki, or Hawkeye ? Don't know about you my friend, by I was pretty keen to see the Hulk, Iron Man and Thor (and mostly to see them kick the **** out of each other as well as the bad guys, thank you Joss Whedon ! )


Anyway, if you enjoyed IM 3 that's cool.

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Old 11-17-2013, 03:00 AM   #343
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Just did, 227 reviews out of 243 reviews is 93%, (well 93.41 % ,but who's counting) very simple division.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/iron_man/
Then you meant it deserved being liked by that percentage of critics. Thanks for clearing it up
Sometimes posts confuse that ratio for the average score

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The Avengers are a personal taste thing - I suppose I did enjoy
John Byrne's run on West Coast Avengers, and the classic story
that introduces Rogue (when she takes out Thor, Iron Man, the Vision,
Captain America, and most of the other Avengers, mostly by herself).

But, otherwise, neither the art nor storylines have ever appealed to me.
Understandable

Quote:
The film was very enjoyable, I liked it, but didn't love it, (which I said in my original post) and raised the bar for action in superhero movies, however the characters are very one-dimensional.

But that's just IMO, and thus I suggest it is overrated.
You're right about Avengers, characters are one dimensional in that movie
And your view is understandable

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Old 11-17-2013, 03:17 AM   #344
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P.S. Trevor Slattery was not the Mandarin. Everyone who keeps railing about Iron Man's nemesis being turned into a joke doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding the matter, as it has been very clearly established: Killian is this continuity's Mandarin. Anyone who keeps focusing on Trevor is looking in the wrong direction. It's the equivalent of saying that Ra's Al Ghul sucked because he was a bald Japanese man with 10 minutes of screen time. There's having an opinion, but then there's believing a fallacy, which is the exact type of opinion all of these "Mandarin was a joke" folks are holding onto. Seems like the world is flat all over again.
Unless my dvd player is skipping scenes, I don't remember the fake Asian Ra's turning into a buffoon, which is why people who say 'Madarin was a joke' say so.

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Old 11-17-2013, 04:22 AM   #345
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Unless my dvd player is skipping scenes, I don't remember the fake Asian Ra's turning into a buffoon, which is why people who say 'Madarin was a joke' say so.

Really looking forward to Visualiza's reply to that. You lads are going to
have fun with that one.


Sorry dudes, I couldn't resist throwing my two cents in (although we don't have pennies, two-cents, or even five cents down here....so it'll have to be
ten cents ).

The "Mandarin's a joke" wasn't something I was too worried about,
did it really bug that many people ? Sounds like it !

For me, it was the overall change in the character, from Chinese evil-mastermind-warrior-genius-power-ring-wielder to....

White-evil-scientist/mastermind-who-breathes-fire-and-hides-behind-a-non-Chinese-pretend-terrorist/mastermind-who's-really-an-idiot. That was a bit of a stretch too far IMO.

(maybe it was just the fire-breathing that got me, but it takes more than a dragon tattoo to be the Mandarin, otherwise my sister-in-law would be the Mandarin, and sometimes she breathes fire too !)

Regardless to all that, you are correct that the Batman Begins analogy is a flawed one. Wow, we actually agreed on something, weird, I better make a call, as the Devil might need his central-heating fixed.

But hey, it will give you lads something to talk about. And ultimately, that's exactly what forums like this are for. Enjoy.

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Old 11-17-2013, 04:26 AM   #346
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Then you meant it deserved being liked by that percentage of critics. Thanks for clearing it up
Sometimes posts confuse that ratio for the average score

Understandable

You're right about Avengers, characters are one dimensional in that movie
And your view is understandable


Cheers,

"understandable" is the biggest compliment I've got in this thread so far !

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Old 11-17-2013, 07:23 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
1) The mandarin twist.

You essentially explained that Killian's plot worked, by describing it in detail from the story, that is not arguing, that's remembering.
Sorry, that's a bit disrespectful, apologies.
My apologies; it certainly wasn't my intent to come off that way. When you said it didn't work, I interpreted that as meaning it didn't work in the context of the plot.


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Anyway, my problem with it, from a story point of view, is that its depiction of the Mandarin ignores about 50 years of source material, particularly the two most distinctive characteristics of the Mandarin -his ethnic identity and his power rings. Surely there was a way to integrate these ?

So really it's about whether this is a depiction of the Mandarin that works for us as an audience ? Reboots and reimaginings have clearly shown that a character can be significantly changed for the big screen and still work. However, a degree of consistency is necessary for it to still be that character
- take away all of his essential charateristics, and its not that character anymore. (kind of like the League of Extraordinary gentlemen film vs the League of Extraordinary gentlemen comic book, other than the names and names of a couple of characters there is no similarity at all, which is why the film doesn't particularly work all that well).
With respect, but may I ask to what extent you are familiar with the character? I ask because I notice that quite a few of the folks who are so ardent about this depiction aren't too familiar with the character's history, especially recently. Personally, I think that the Killian interpretation is very faithful, both in a narrower, more specific sense and a broader one as well. For starters, the modern depiction of the character bears a style that's similar to Killian's in the film; he wears an unassuming business suit, is well groomed, and is quite the science whiz himself. Otherwise, his personality, tactics, and even some of the more recent plots are strikingly similar to what we saw in IM3. Towards the tail end of Fraction's run last year(damn good read in its entirety), he captured Zeke Stane and Tony and forced them to build giant mechs for him to..ahem...take over the world with. Megalomania aside, a similar idea was presented in the film. He also was using Maya Hansen to further develop Extremis in a bizarre plot to exterminate most of humanity. Again, insanity aside, the film shared similarities with this. The last piece of the puzzle always falls back onto his ethnicity, in that Killian isn't Chinese. Well, the guy in the comics is half British, and aside from that, I just find this to be a very hollow excuse for why the character is supposedly a disservice to the mythos. So far in cinema, we've had the following changes in race/ethnicity:

  • An American Blade, where he was a Brit in the comics
  • A British Xavier, who was originally American
  • A white Ra's Al Ghul, originally Arab(I believe; please correct me if I'm wrong)
  • An Irish Bullseye, originally American
  • A white...ahem..."John Harrison", originally Indian(played by a Mexican)
  • A black Kingpin, Harvey Dent, Electro, and Nick Fury, all of whom were originally white.
The list is nowhere near complete, but I haven't heard anywhere near the level of backlash for these characters, and I'd attribute that to the idea that they were well acted and written in their respective movies. I find the same to be true here with Killian, and seeing as how you agreed that his plan, motivations, and arc worked within the context of the film, would you not also agree to this as well? With all that being said, both the decoy and Killian actually took quite a bit of inspiration from throughout the character's history, so the idea that it was ignored is just another apocryphal assertion that far too many people continue to perpetuate.


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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
So this one does not work for me, and yes, this is personal preference.
Fair enough, and that's perfectly understandable, but would you also say then that this villain compares unfavorably to the others in this continuity?

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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
I suppose the Trevor Slatterly thing would work , if the movie was a standalone film, without the context of Iron Man and his mythology, in that case it would be pretty clever, and well pulled off by Sir Ben.

So, if you don't know anything about Iron Man, it's great.
On the contrary, I'd argue that the more you know about Iron Man, the more sensible it becomes. As I said before, from my observations, the loudest detractors seem to be the ones who don't read much, if any, Iron Man at all. The comic book Mandarin has probably seen more retcons and revisions than any other major arch-nemesis in all of Marvel, so when people speak to his illustrious 50+ years of history, I have to wonder exactly how they themselves would approach adapting a half century of radically different interpretations of a character for the silver screen, if they even know what they're talking about in the first place. That isn't directed at you, by the way; I'm generalizing.

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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
This is different from Batman Begins, in that A) anyone who knows anything about Batman would have instantly worked it out.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that there's reasonable doubt there. I'm barely a casual reader of Batman, and even I know that Ducard and Al Ghul were never amalgamated, whether in continuity or otherwise; they were decidedly their own characters. For that reason alone, I don't think it can be unequivocally declared that people should have spotted that from the beginning. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but I just don't think it's as obvious as you let on. I'll freely admit that I didn't see it coming myself.

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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
B) the depiction of Ra's is far more consistent with the comic book depiction, despite significant changes, than the Killian/Slattery Mandarin is. That's why it work.
That's debatable; see above. I'll leave this alone, as this is the exact sort of thing that people can argue in circles about endlessly. I think we can both agree that each villain drew inspiration from their comic counterparts while also taking significant liberties.


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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Again, this is personal preference. So we probably don't need to argue it any further.
Indeed, but we can still share our reasoning for why our preference is one way or the other. My intent isn't to be argumentative for the sake of it, but to understand your POV while sharing my own.

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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
I like heroes who are flawed, and make mistakes but there comes a point when a mistake is so inconsistent with that hero's character so as to challenge our suspension of disbelief.

So, I accept what you say about Tony Stark's struggle with sleep-deprivation, PTSD, and well, being an arrogant jerk.
However, this is the same Tony stark who knocked together an arc reactor and an iron man suit in a cave, while being kept alive by a car battery. I suspect he was somewhat PTSD'd and sleep, food and everything deprived at that time, plus the constant threats of death.

He did not have a basement full of Iron Man suits that could be activated remotely at a moment's notice, yet still dealt with a small army.

You're telling me that this is the same guy, at home, where all his resources, technology and of course the basement full of suits, can't deal with a couple of helicopters, not jets, but helicopters, armed with missiles ?

That is a leap too far, and its defiance of logic puts it firmly in the
category of plot hole.
I guess this is where we'll differ the most, but yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. Your argument here is grounded in circular reasoning. What you're saying is that "because this behavior and outcome has been observed before, it will happen again under similar circumstances." or in other words, the future will resemble the past unconditionally. Previously observed behavior just isn't a legitimate premise to support any conclusion; it's a fallacy of inductive reasoning, and it dismisses the idea of variables and a different, albeit similar, scenario. A+B does not always equal C in different scenarios with different variables.

I'll also add that you're trivializing the extent to which PTSD can affect a person's behavior, as well as seemingly misinterpreting the condition somewhat. For one, he couldn't have been suffering from it while in the cave, as it's referred to as post-traumatic for that very reason. Sure, he didn't get flashbacks and anxiety attacks after that experience, but it varies from person to person with what causes and triggers it. I've known people who have successfully completed several combat tours without a single issue, while others developed the condition after their first, second, third, fourth, or fifth tours.

All I'm saying is that regardless of how prepared Tony is for most situations, he's not infallible, and he isn't a robot. There may come a time where even the most careful individual is caught off guard, whether or not they themselves are culpable. Similarly to Tony, I've known plenty of people who have provoked situations that they themselves were unprepared for, whether it's that they neglected/refused to prepare for them, or were simply in over their heads. I've been guilty of this more times than I could ever hope to count.

Again, I don't necessarily consider it a plot hole, but I suppose that's debatable. Whether or not it was a solid choice from a writing standpoint is another matter entirely, but that's also debatable. Given the context, I think it works well.


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I have greatly enjoyed your posts, as they are well thought out and employ logic. I suspect we will have to agree to disagree.
Likewise, and thank you for the civil discussion.

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Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
Logic, as important as it is to narratives of all kinds is not the end all be all of any artistic endeavor. As in all things in life () a Nick Myer directed Star Trek film has the answers: "Logic is but the beginning of wisdom."
Agreed, but my comment was referring to the logic of that other individual's argument, and not the movie itself.

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Old 11-17-2013, 09:34 AM   #348
kedrell
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Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Let's see:

TDK
TDKR
AngHulk(only around here, everyone else knows it's awful)
Spider-man1
Spider-man2
X1
X2
XMFC
TW

That about does it for me. And I'll point out that this isn't just a list of SH films I don't like or hate. There are a few in here that're ok. But they get much more praise than I think they deserve.

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Old 11-17-2013, 02:35 PM   #349
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Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

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Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Really looking forward to Visualiza's reply to that. You lads are going to
have fun with that one.


Sorry dudes, I couldn't resist throwing my two cents in (although we don't have pennies, two-cents, or even five cents down here....so it'll have to be
ten cents ).

The "Mandarin's a joke" wasn't something I was too worried about,
did it really bug that many people ? Sounds like it !

For me, it was the overall change in the character, from Chinese evil-mastermind-warrior-genius-power-ring-wielder to....

White-evil-scientist/mastermind-who-breathes-fire-and-hides-behind-a-non-Chinese-pretend-terrorist/mastermind-who's-really-an-idiot. That was a bit of a stretch too far IMO.

(maybe it was just the fire-breathing that got me, but it takes more than a dragon tattoo to be the Mandarin, otherwise my sister-in-law would be the Mandarin, and sometimes she breathes fire too !)


Regardless to all that, you are correct that the Batman Begins analogy is a flawed one. Wow, we actually agreed on something, weird, I better make a call, as the Devil might need his central-heating fixed.

But hey, it will give you lads something to talk about. And ultimately, that's exactly what forums like this are for. Enjoy.
Yep,I and others have pointed that little fact out ad nauseam.But the cry still rings out "We got the real Mandarin!"

I can't keep pointing out the freakin' obvious over and over.

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Old 11-17-2013, 04:01 PM   #350
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Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Captain America the first avenger. The most over rated comic book movie of all time.

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