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Old 10-08-2013, 08:46 AM   #26
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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The world sees America as the hero it deserves, but not the one it needs? Or is it the other way around? Honestly, as that movie came out during the Bush years, either way it would be more flattering than the real international image we were then maintaining.

What do you mean the image 'you' were maintaining "then?" America's image has not gotten any better since then.

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Old 10-08-2013, 08:51 AM   #27
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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In Miller's take, he goes above and beyond his role as Gotham's protector.

That to me, is the first time Batman has gone mad with power.

But....is it justifiable and right of him to do that?

What, specifically, sets his actions apart for you, compared to his actions in continuity proper?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just curious about specific examples.

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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. . .
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I don't think we "know" that at all. The only thing we can know for certain is that he is against such being used against HIMSELF.

We MIGHT be able to ASSUME that he is similarly against such being used against the populace in general.


That would make him a hypocrite. "Freedom is good enough for me but not the slaves."

Yes, but that's exactly the mentality of a HUGE portion of people in america.
Many people COMPLETELY support the use of Drones ("on" ANY "soil") to monitor, and even kill, government labelled "potential threats."

What they refuse to accept is that means they can, and WILL use those same drones to spy on you.

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:12 AM   #29
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

It's funny. I'm reading the JL Mortal script and two things jump out to me in the first 5 pages.

1) No one likes Aquaman. There is a scene at Planet Krypton where the busboy is in an Aquaman costume. Even Martian Manhunter gets to be a bartender.

2) Batman loves his surveillance. From the script:

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Batman. He's at the console of a massive computer system with a 10-foot VIDEO MONITOR. He's unshaven, feet up. Watching. Always watching.
I must say reading that description put a bad taste in my mouth much like the police state he has over Gotham in Kindgom Come. Sometimes it's unnerving the lengths to which he will go. That being said, it's part of what makes him interesting. The same could be said for Superman and which conflicts he should interfere in. Some things are out of his control and are best left for the human race to sort out. Peace on Earth is a good example of that.

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:16 AM   #30
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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It's funny. I'm reading the JL Mortal script and two things jump out to me in the first 5 pages.

1) No one likes Aquaman. There is a scene at Planet Krypton where the busboy is in an Aquaman costume. Even Martian Manhunter gets to be a bartender.

2) Batman loves his surveillance. From the script:



I must say reading that description put a bad taste in my mouth much like the police state he has over Gotham in Kindgom Come.
Why didnt you like it? I thought it fit with the character.

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:18 AM   #31
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Why didnt you like it? I thought it fit with the character.
I was editing it as you responded. I figured it could use some more clarification. Stupid stream of consciousness...

And it does fit the character. It's just one aspect of him that I just don't like as per my edit.

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:21 AM   #32
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I was editing it as you responded. I figured it could use some more clarification. Stupid stream of consciousness...

And it does fit the character. It's just one aspect of him that I just don't like as per my edit.
no worries...after I posted I saw your edit and almost edited mine but I said nah

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Old 10-09-2013, 02:09 PM   #33
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

The funny thing about right wing vs left wing means different things to different people. It mostly depends of what political party holds your loyalties.

The reality is all people should fear those we choose to give power too, choose to abuse it. Both political parties enjoy giving power to leaders that we believe hold are believes but hate it when others are given power when they don't hold it. In the Nolanverse Batman is a symbol that corruption of power can't control us, he is not left or right winged. He is the truth that people should be responsible as well being respectful of what power we are given over others. Anyone choosing Batman as the proponent of an authoritarian state doesn't get the character depicted in the Nolanverse in my humble opinion.

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Old 10-09-2013, 04:00 PM   #34
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I feel like we've been down this road before...



Oh, poor Lucius Fox. Only a few years away from finding out that Batman was just the beginning...

I actually love parallels and rich subtext in art. And I think Nolan proved many snobs wrong when The Dark Knight proved to be one the most interesting post-9/11 films ever made. However, after watching how clumsily--to the point of being nearly insulting--Goyer and Snyder handled such themes themselves in Man of Steel, complete with Superman shrugging as skyscrapers collapsed and Zod's machine causing planes to crash into buildings...

Yeah, let's not go down there. I'm all for making Batman's methods murky or morally ambiguous. Nolan toyed with it. Frank Miller and Alan Moore fully embraced it (though for different means). Snyder is too tone deaf to pull that off with finesse.
Excellent post. Totally agree concerning Snyder's capabilities/limitations as a director. Nolan made it look so effortless, alas...

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Old 10-09-2013, 11:28 PM   #35
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I think The Nolan boys brought up an interesting and politically and socially important topic in TDK... and then backed way the hell off it by writing into the story a lame ass magical "3rd option".

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Old 10-10-2013, 02:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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Miller didn't see Batman as anti-authority. He sees Batman as the ULTIMATE authority. Batman essentially becomes Gotham's dictator at the end of the series until Superman "takes him out." And even then, he goes underground to build up a whole army, waiting until the time is right to take control. In many ways, his Batman is closer to Nolan's Bane than Nolan's Batman. Scary, but true.
Bane put the city in a state of chaos and tried to blow it up with a nuclear bomb. You're wrong.

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Old 11-15-2013, 12:58 PM   #37
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Daniel Alter @DAlter007 Follow Can't wait for #BatmanvsSuperman.. #batfleck semi-retired/not speaking to Robin anymore.. Controlling drones from the batcave.

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Old 11-15-2013, 01:09 PM   #38
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

ooohhh drones would just be lazy for Batman

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Old 11-15-2013, 01:25 PM   #39
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

Is there any indication that the drone at the end of mos was a Wayne industries product?

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Old 11-15-2013, 02:00 PM   #40
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Ugh, I really hate this false notion that Batman is some right-wing surveillance-obsessed nut. Other than when written by Frank Miller, he is anything but that. Most versions of Batman have not been that and I'm including the Post-Crisis years.

The default Post-Crisis Batman is first and foremost a detective and is apolitical in nature. A detective's job is to try as hard as possible to not take a side and to remove all biases from self + look at things objectively. The world's greatest detective has to essentially be a master at just that.

It's not like he ever went out of his way to do this sort of stuff. He always had a reason for it and it was always because someone really pushed him over the edge and got him to that point. He only created the TOB contingency plans after a situation in which the team lost control of their bodies and made Brother Eye after Zatanna wiped his memories. Brother Eye happened because he experienced betrayal within the team firsthand. Both cases were also not permanent cases. Even Nolan's Batman was not some surveillance-loving nut that did things with no reason. Nolan's Batman, much like comic book Batman, was pushed over the edge to do it. The death of the love of his life is what made him do it. And much like TOB/Brother Eye, it was a temporary thing. He never did anything like that again in the entire trilogy.

And what about all the left-wing messages that come with Batman? As I said before, Batman is apolitical but it could be argued there are just as many left-wing messages incorporated in the Batman mythos than right-wing messages. Batman spends all 3 Nolan films and 40 years of his comic book continuity saying and practising "no guns, no killing". He goes as far as to let the world's biggest psychopath break out of prison to kill people over and over again, to unfriend/kick out crimefighters that kill/use guns from his Bat Family, etc. Then he has one scene in the entire Nolan trilogy and a few comics where he supports full-on Big Brother-like surveillance and now he is all of a sudden a Patriot Act-supporting Republican? Do I have to point out the double standard in that?

Batman is not the vehicle for any party or state. He is, by his detective nature, an apolitical character. That's not to say that he doesn't take a more left-wing or right-wing view on certain issues but he is by no means more left-wing than right-wing or vice-versa. Politically speaking, he is arguably one of the most balanced superheroes in all of comics. Any hardcore right-wing belief you would find in his character can be balanced out by a hardcore left-wing belief that also exists in his character.

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Old 11-15-2013, 02:27 PM   #41
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Default Re: Batman as a Vehicle for the Surveillance State

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Ugh, I really hate this false notion that Batman is some right-wing surveillance-obsessed nut. Other than when written by Frank Miller, he is anything but that. Most versions of Batman have not been that and I'm including the Post-Crisis years.

The default Post-Crisis Batman is first and foremost a detective and is apolitical in nature. A detective's job is to try as hard as possible to not take a side and to remove all biases from self + look at things objectively. The world's greatest detective has to essentially be a master at just that.

It's not like he ever went out of his way to do this sort of stuff. He always had a reason for it and it was always because someone really pushed him over the edge and got him to that point. He only created the TOB contingency plans after a situation in which the team lost control of their bodies and made Brother Eye after Zatanna wiped his memories. Brother Eye happened because he experienced betrayal within the team firsthand. Both cases were also not permanent cases. Even Nolan's Batman was not some surveillance-loving nut that did things with no reason. Nolan's Batman, much like comic book Batman, was pushed over the edge to do it. The death of the love of his life is what made him do it. And much like TOB/Brother Eye, it was a temporary thing. He never did anything like that again in the entire trilogy.

And what about all the left-wing messages that come with Batman? As I said before, Batman is apolitical but it could be argued there are just as many left-wing messages incorporated in the Batman mythos than right-wing messages. Batman spends all 3 Nolan films and 40 years of his comic book continuity saying and practising "no guns, no killing". He goes as far as to let the world's biggest psychopath break out of prison to kill people over and over again, to unfriend/kick out crimefighters that kill/use guns from his Bat Family, etc. Then he has one scene in the entire Nolan trilogy and a few comics where he supports full-on Big Brother-like surveillance and now he is all of a sudden a Patriot Act-supporting Republican? Do I have to point out the double standard in that?

Batman is not the vehicle for any party or state. He is, by his detective nature, an apolitical character. That's not to say that he doesn't take a more left-wing or right-wing view on certain issues but he is by no means more left-wing than right-wing or vice-versa. Politically speaking, he is arguably one of the most balanced superheroes in all of comics. Any hardcore right-wing belief you would find in his character can be balanced out by a hardcore left-wing belief that also exists in his character.
Sounds like an intelligent, multi-faceted character!

Excellent post. People will see exactly what it is they want to see. Look at the comments section on almost ANY article on the internet; on even the most innocuous and apolitical article some will inevitably dredge up political issues, slamming one side in favour of another.

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Old 11-16-2013, 02:31 PM   #42
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:57 PM   #43
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I better put on my hipster glasses.



http://io9.com/ben-afflecks-batman-c...ass-1466741701

"Film producer Daniel Alter (Hitman), who is currently working with Warner Bros., released an interesting tweet earlier this week, potentially spilling some details on Batman Vs. Superman.

Can't wait for #BatmanvsSuperman.. #batfleck semi-retired/not speaking to Robin anymore.. Controlling drones from the batcave. ó Daniel Alter (@DAlter007) November 15, 2013"

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Old 11-18-2013, 07:49 PM   #44
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bring.it.on.

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Old 11-18-2013, 08:15 PM   #45
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Ugh, I really hate this false notion that Batman is some right-wing surveillance-obsessed nut. Other than when written by Frank Miller, he is anything but that. Most versions of Batman have not been that and I'm including the Post-Crisis years.
Frank Miller didn't write a drone surveillance-obsessed nutÖthat was Mark Waid in Kingdom Come.

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Old 11-18-2013, 08:45 PM   #46
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Frank Miller didn't write a drone surveillance-obsessed nutÖthat was Mark Waid in Kingdom Come.
I know. I put them together because people often associate them together. And because both claims stem from the idea that Batman is this crazy right wing authoritarian nut.

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Old 11-18-2013, 09:17 PM   #47
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The comics have pointed out on multiple occasions that Batman does not give a damn about privacy or spying. If he has a hunch you're guilty then your phones, email, bank accounts and netflix queue will all be under surveillance.

The difference between the US Govt and Batman is that Batman has both the world's greatest detective skills and the writers behind him to make sure every hunch turns out to be correct.

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Old 11-18-2013, 10:27 PM   #48
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The comics have pointed out on multiple occasions that Batman does not give a damn about privacy or spying. If he has a hunch you're guilty then your phones, email, bank accounts and netflix queue will all be under surveillance.

The difference between the US Govt and Batman is that Batman has both the world's greatest detective skills and the writers behind him to make sure every hunch turns out to be correct.
There is a huge difference between him spying because he is suspicious and him just spying for the sake of spying. No one is saying that he never violates privacy; just that he isn't a surveillance-obsessed "Every Gotham citizen is a potential threat" nutjob. That's where the false notion lies: that Batman sits around spying on people when he is bored. He never just spied for the sake of spying other than the time he was betrayed by the Justice League (Elseworld stories don't count).

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Old 11-18-2013, 10:40 PM   #49
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There is a huge difference between him spying because he is suspicious and him just spying for the sake of spying. No one is saying that he never violates privacy; just that he isn't a surveillance-obsessed "Every Gotham citizen is a potential threat" nutjob. That's where the false notion lies: that Batman sits around spying on people when he is bored. He never just spied for the sake of spying other than the time he was betrayed by the Justice League (Elseworld stories don't count).
The very act of surveillance connotes ulterior motives. I'm having a hard time imagining scenarios in which it does not propel some sort of cause by the perpetrator. Spying for the sake of spying doesn't really exist. There's always a reason for it.

While Batman doesn't sit around watching hidden cameras or listening in on people, he has been shown multiple times to have direct access to such material when convenient for him. Which means he's set up this entire network prior to ever really needing it. Fitting for someone who strives to always be prepared.

I can't say Bruce is honest in this area. He most certainly does not give a damn about personal privacy, especially in situations where it's preventing him from finding a solution.

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Old 11-18-2013, 11:06 PM   #50
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The very act of surveillance connotes ulterior motives. I'm having a hard time imagining scenarios in which it does not propel some sort of cause by the perpetrator. Spying for the sake of spying doesn't really exist. There's always a reason for it.

While Batman doesn't sit around watching hidden cameras or listening in on people, he has been shown multiple times to have direct access to such material when convenient for him. Which means he's set up this entire network prior to ever really needing it. Fitting for someone who strives to always be prepared.

I can't say Bruce is honest in this area. He most certainly does not give a damn about personal privacy, especially in situations where it's preventing him from finding a solution.
"Spying for the sake of spying" refers to a routine daily check on a grand scale just in case something might go wrong. It is basically what the NSA does. Again, my point is not that he doesn't spy on people but that he isn't obsessed with spying on people. That's what I'm trying to argue. Batman is not the type of guy to do a routine daily check on every Gotham citizen just in case one might be hiding something (again, I'm excluding the Elseworld stuff). He is not a "vehicle for the surveillance state" in that sense. He would still be against what the NSA does. And again, that doesn't mean he would avoid violating someone's privacy because he would view it as immoral; just that he would be against governments having that power.


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