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Old 11-21-2013, 04:13 PM   #226
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

To actually think MOS had any chance to make $1 billion is just retarded. There was no way that would have happened even if it was the best film ever made. It never happens with the first film in a rebooted franchise due to it having the reboot stigma attached to it. It is always the second film that is meant to show whether or not the reboot was a success in the first place.

This just further shows how clueless WB when it comes to superheroes.

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:17 PM   #227
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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That's a good one
Kudos for writing down the most stupid thing I had the displeasure to read on these boards for months.
To each his is own. But compared to some the stuff posted here I'll take it as a compliment! Anyway, they were not going to stray to far from the man of steel we all know and love. They practically put ACTION Comics on screen!!

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:19 PM   #228
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I'm trying to understand what you're trying to prove here Valeyard. WB by all appearances seems very satisfied with MOS and is moving forward with a sequel. In my view, they treated the reboot the same as they did Batman Begins which had the same sort stigma of re-launching after the disaster with Schumacher and such. BB didn't do huge numbers, but it was the start they wanted and they continued. MOS is the same.

Again, not sure what your point is here.
They were disappointed with the MOS numbers so they decided to make a Batman/Superman film instead of making a full Superman sequel. The inclusion of Batman is what he's trying to prove. He's saying it has to do with WB's disappointment, (which it kinda does). On the other hand, TDK did no such thing. They let Nolan take his time with the story.

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:22 PM   #229
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Didn't that story end with him landing the job(and by way of an impossible and less than honest insider scoop with superman himself)?

Doesn't seem like it's too far off from MoS.
At least he applied for the job early on in the story, actually had some writing credits, and wanted to land the job for some meaningful reasons that worked perfectly with the story. It's not something that came out of nowhere like in MoS where he basically decided to become a reporter, without any college education or experience in this field (or none we're aware of), to keep his "ear to the ground".

I really hope it's something that can be retconned though.

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:32 PM   #230
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Huh? That's not the issue. The issue is that some have qualms with is the supposed lack of forward thinking as to how such an utterly absurd premise as the "Clark Kent disguise" would function in a "realistic" world that Snyder/Goyer have gone to great pains to establish.




How is using a character in a sequel at all comparable to the way a premise is meant to function given the internal logic of the world established? Not a very good comparison.
You are all presuming to know a dynamic we haven't yet seen. For all we know they're exploring the idea that a man like Clark can't hide amongst us in this day and age.

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:33 PM   #231
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I'm trying to understand what you're trying to prove here Valeyard. WB by all appearances seems very satisfied with MOS and is moving forward with a sequel. In my view, they treated the reboot the same as they did Batman Begins which had the same sort stigma of re-launching after the disaster with Schumacher and such. BB didn't do huge numbers, but it was the start they wanted and they continued. MOS is the same.

Again, not sure what your point is here.
I think his point is simply "Goyer sucks."

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:40 PM   #232
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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They were disappointed with the MOS numbers so they decided to make a Batman/Superman film instead of making a full Superman sequel. The inclusion of Batman is what he's trying to prove. He's saying it has to do with WB's disappointment, (which it kinda does). On the other hand, TDK did no such thing. They let Nolan take his time with the story.
I don't follow movie news that much, but I have a real hard time buying this. The reason I say this is WB/DC has been trying for YEARS to launch JL ,and they have been trying for years to do WF. I actually think this was the plan all along. If MOS was successful enough then they wanted Batman and Superman next, which financial and logistically makes sense because they are their most popular comic properties, and could help launch JL.

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I think his point is simply "Goyer sucks."
lol...yeah I am starting to get that, but I wish he'd just come right out and say it instead of going all the way around the damn barnyard...lol.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #233
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
They were disappointed with the MOS numbers so they decided to make a Batman/Superman film instead of making a full Superman sequel. The inclusion of Batman is what he's trying to prove. He's saying it has to do with WB's disappointment, (which it kinda does). On the other hand, TDK did no such thing. They let Nolan take his time with the story.
Less to do with that, and more to do with the Avengers cross over novelty breaking the box office.
You pointing to the fact that WB moved on with Begins which systematically made a great deal less money is proof of just what it takes to "make them happy"

If Begins came out in 2013, post avengers, all things being equal, who thinks wb would be making Worlds Finest right now?
Me.

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:49 PM   #234
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Me too.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:51 PM   #235
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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At least he applied for the job early on in the story, actually had some writing credits, and wanted to land the job for some meaningful reasons that worked perfectly with the story. It's not something that came out of nowhere like in MoS where he basically decided to become a reporter, without any college education or experience in this field (or none we're aware of), to keep his "ear to the ground".

I really hope it's something that can be retconned though.
I missed the part where you were talking about execution, but rather that you said he was a full fledged reporter before the end of the film. He wasn't in Earth One, and he wasn't in MOS. Both times he happened upon the idea after an epiphany and with no in story documented training outside of being in college. Earth one Part 2 is about him being a reporter 'before the end of the story', perhaps another cue these producers will take from.

Granted EarthOne Superman is a genius at all mortal practices.

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Old 11-21-2013, 04:58 PM   #236
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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You are all presuming to know a dynamic we haven't yet seen. For all we know they're exploring the idea that a man like Clark can't hide amongst us in this day and age.
I was simply addressing the allegations put forth in the thread title and accompanying link in which Goyer talks about the Clark Kent identity bit. I am not presuming to know anything that has not yet been seen, I am simply remarking on what we have seen. Which is why I said:

The issue is that some have qualms with is the supposed lack of forward thinking as to how such an utterly absurd premise as the "Clark Kent disguise" would function in a "realistic" world that Snyder/Goyer have gone to great pains to establish.

I was talking about the suspension of disbelief required for such a disguise to "work" in a "realistic" setting that Goyer/Snyder established.

If they want to explore the idea that someone like Clark can't hide in the future, that could be really interesting, but it doesn't have much to do with what I was talking about.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:00 PM   #237
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I really hope it's something that can be retconned though.
It'd be easy. We missed 15 years of Clark's life from 18 to 33. It wouldn't be hard for him to say, "Good thing I took those journalism classes at KU." I mean, we saw that he was interested in University of Kansas already, it'd be a small matter to actually say he went there at SOME POINT before or during his bumming around. We also don't know how much time has passed between Superman arriving to save Metropolis and him getting the job at the Daily Planet, so maybe he went back to college for a little while to become more appropriately credentialed if he wasn't already. And anyway, Lois obviously would help him get the job, and as anyone in the real world knows, nepotism is very frequently more important than silly things like credentials.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:02 PM   #238
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Man, your thinking must me really narrow then if you take EXACTLY what is shown on screen. Tough time you would have with Tarkovsky films then.

If you think that a big ass giant UFO flying at near street level in broad daylight was ONLY seen by Clark and his mom then I don't know what to say.
I never said that. I said the film doesn't show anyone else seeing what happened at the Kent farm other than Lois and those directly involved, so complaining about such a possibility is kind of silly. It is entirely possible that the UFO was seen by someone else. But from a logical standpoint, even if the UFO WAS seen on the Kent farm, what does that prove, exactly, about Clark's role in events, to the average person?

These aliens landed in and tore up half of Smallville. That they also tore up the Kent farm (and several other farms, it appears) doesn't exactly point the finger at Clark being Superman in context.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:08 PM   #239
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This is very basic suspension of disbelief stuff. Yes, there are aliens, etc. but the rest of the world resembles a reality we are familiar with. This is the same approach that Nolan took.
Right. I'm not denying that they did that. I'm denying that they went to "great pains" to do so. Certainly not anymore than any modern film does, when presenting "the real world". The level of psychological and political and social "grounding" though, is somewhat minimal. The writers are more interested in the grand sci-fi ideas, as they should be in this particular story with its given focus.

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1. No one is arguing that Goyer didn't "care about" this aspect of the character, so that's wrong.
Actually, some people were.

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The comparison is flawed because you are indeed arging that using a character in a sequel (Joker) iscomparable to the way a premise is meant to function given the internal logic of the world established (the "Clark Kent disguise"). But please, by all means, explain your exact comparison.
Where on Earth did I make that argument?

I'm just pointing out that just because they are saving an element of the mythology for a sequel does not mean they don't care about it.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:09 PM   #240
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Here is something I haven't seen cross people's minds: What are the likely chances of Batman vs. Superman being more of WB's decision than Snyder/Goyer's decision?

In my opinion, very high at this point. I cannot believe for a second the absurdity that Goyer would have plans for Batman in MOS 2 from the beginning when he didn't even have a premise for Superman's alter ego at the DP.
It's not as simple as you think. It's easy to say it's a WB decision, and then you see stuff like this:

“(Nolan) said that he and David Goyer had come up with a way of doing the Superman story that wouldn’t exclude the future possibility of including the other DC characters,” recalls Robinov. “So Chris and David delivered a draft that did that.”

http://variety.com/2013/film/news/wa...an-1200493334/

If that's the framework in which they built MOS, then really, the inclusion of DC characters seem to be the logical progression of the franchise. At least in their eyes.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:33 PM   #241
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Right. I'm not denying that they did that. I'm denying that they went to "great pains" to do so. Certainly not anymore than any modern film does, when presenting "the real world". The level of psychological and political and social "grounding" though, is somewhat minimal. The writers are more interested in the grand sci-fi ideas, as they should be in this particular story with its given focus.

So you're taking issue with my turn of phrase? It's really not meant to be taken quite so literally. Yes, I believe that, to their credit, Goyer and Snyder put considerable effort ("great pains") into developing a world/"reality" that bears great verisimilitude to our own, that this Superman figures into (even if they had some help from Nolan).

Originally, you had said:

The world isn't that realistic. And they DIDN'T go to "great paints" to establish a realistic world. This was a science fiction film.

They went to great pains to establish real CONFLICT for Superman. Not a "realistic world".



Establishing a "realistic world" in a sci-fi film has little to nothing to do with the superbeings flying around, it's all about how the superbeings supposedly figure into our world. That's what I was on about with the suspension of disbelief stuff. As per the Goyer quote, they did indeed make the effort to maintain versimilitude to our own reality.

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Actually, some people were.
And I made a post citing how baseless an argument that was.

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Where on Earth did I make that argument?
I'm somewhat amused that people think that because Goyer didn't show the reporter Clark Kent until the end of the film, that this somehow means he doesn't care about that aspect of the character. Sort of like he and Nolan didn't care about The Joker because they saved hints at the character for the end of BATMAN BEGINS and the second film?

To be clear, I don't disagree. They're just two completely seprate things (an innately absurd element of the character that is yet to be explored in a "realistic" world, versus introducing a new character in TDK) that I don't think are very comparable at all.

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I'm just pointing out that just because they are saving an element of the mythology for a sequel does not mean they don't care about it.
I find this to be true as well.

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Old 11-21-2013, 06:06 PM   #242
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It's not as simple as you think. It's easy to say it's a WB decision, and then you see stuff like this:

“(Nolan) said that he and David Goyer had come up with a way of doing the Superman story that wouldn’t exclude the future possibility of including the other DC characters,” recalls Robinov. “So Chris and David delivered a draft that did that.”

http://variety.com/2013/film/news/wa...an-1200493334/

If that's the framework in which they built MOS, then really, the inclusion of DC characters seem to be the logical progression of the franchise. At least in their eyes.
He was referring to the idea that the MOS universe can have other superheroes existing in it, unlike Nolan's Batman franchise.

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Old 11-21-2013, 06:11 PM   #243
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Less to do with that, and more to do with the Avengers cross over novelty breaking the box office.
You pointing to the fact that WB moved on with Begins which systematically made a great deal less money is proof of just what it takes to "make them happy"

If Begins came out in 2013, post avengers, all things being equal, who thinks wb would be making Worlds Finest right now?
Me.
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Me too.
It's not the reason, but it is a reason. The other reason is that WB wants JL right now as opposed to taking their time like Marvel did. They want the same result without the proper effort and buildup put into it.. which will lead to the downfall of their DC film universe eventually.

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Old 11-21-2013, 06:22 PM   #244
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

This only validates the Christopher Reeve version of Clark Kent.

By acting like a clumsy goof no one even considers that Superman is standing right next to them.

A grounded version with a weaker disguise makes little sense.

They could use a kryptonian device to create a hologram body/face mask that makes Clark look like Jason Schwartzman or some other nerdy guy.

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Old 11-21-2013, 06:28 PM   #245
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It's not the reason, but it is a reason. The other reason is that WB wants JL right now as opposed to taking their time like Marvel did. They want the same result without the proper effort and buildup put into it.. which will lead to the downfall of their DC film universe eventually.
I am not saying they are doing this properly. This is WB. I don't trust them not to eff things up.

My point and Marvin's point was this was their plan all along. I'm disputing this notion that Bats was added to a Superman sequel to boost things because they were disappointed. This was part of their grand scheme, and I believe it has been for many, many years.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:38 PM   #246
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This only validates the Christopher Reeve version of Clark Kent.

By acting like a clumsy goof no one even considers that Superman is standing right next to them.

A grounded version with a weaker disguise makes little sense.

They could use a kryptonian device to create a hologram body/face mask that makes Clark look like Jason Schwartzman or some other nerdy guy.
I don't get this. In the real world, if you worked with someone who say looked like Brad Pitt. You might think...hmmm, but most people would easily dismiss Brad Pitt working next to them in the cubicle over.

Seriously, they need like one scene to get that point across. I actually don't think it's that complicated and the GA will buy it because it's a movie about a superhero.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:42 PM   #247
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I don't understand the logic of combining Man of Steel and a stand alone World's Finest movie.

Keep them separate and you double your profits.

WB doesn't want an expanded DC universe. They just want to cram all the heroes together ASAP hoping for Avenger level profits from one or two movies.

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Old 11-21-2013, 06:48 PM   #248
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I don't get this. In the real world, if you worked with someone who say looked like Brad Pitt. You might think...hmmm, but most people would easily dismiss Brad Pitt working next to them in the cubicle over.

Seriously, they need like one scene to get that point across. I actually don't think it's that complicated and the GA will buy it because it's a movie about a superhero.
Nah, if Brad Pitt tried secretly working for TMZ with just a pair of glasses as a disguise are you telling me it would work?

That wouldn't even be a believable scenario on a cartoon show.

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Old 11-21-2013, 06:48 PM   #249
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

WB wants JL...they always have. No secret there.

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Nah, if Brad Pitt tried.secretly working for TMZ with just a pair of glasses as a disguise are you telling me it would work.

That wouldn't even be a believable scenario on a cartoon show.
Ironically, I think it would. People are apt to doubt themselves and it would seem preposterous because why would Brad Pitt be working at TMZ. Also, the people at the DP never got a good look at Supes to begin with, but you imagine as time goes on they will. The point is all you need is one scene to dismiss that notion. It's not that hard and I think it could still be grounded in reality. Now let's keep in mind what reality we are talking about here. It's a superhero movie.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.

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Old 11-21-2013, 06:56 PM   #250
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

MOS is not just a superhero movie, it's a grounded superhero movie which means people expect a certain level of realism.

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