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Old 11-22-2013, 06:33 AM   #301
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I skipped to the last page. Is this another Anti-Goyer circlejerk?

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To me, Man of Steel just felt to me like Snyder and Goyer tried to make Superman look less, and simple next to Batman, like yeah Superman is good, he's cool, but not as interesting as Batman.
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Old 11-22-2013, 07:46 AM   #302
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I skipped to the last page. Is this another Anti-Goyer circlejerk?
You are correct, sir.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:31 AM   #303
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I mean geez, some of that dialogue was goofy as hell. 'I think that only counts if your kissing a human?'
I personally don't get this complaint.
Of all films to question a cheesy romance dialogue trade(after surviving calamity) I'd say action film is at the bottom.



Especially when looking at the what the material has been rooted in for 70 years.

Pretty sure the exchanges in both those above films was something similar(about relationship forecasting). The line in MOS was pure corn cheesy nonsense fun. However, this film is supposed to have none of that because we want a consistently dramatic film, with a script that stands up to such scrutiny(see goyer bashing threads).
At the same time this is the film accused "took itself toooo seriously and just didn't have enough jokes, or light hearted spirit....you know like avengers and the rest of the colorful ilk these days, specifically cbm's that involve RDJ".

The picking and choosing this film has faced knows no bounds imo. Did the line in speed simply make more sense?

For my two cents, I could have seen Reeve delivering this exact line and there would have been none the wiser.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:33 AM   #304
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

For all the people who b**ch about Goyer's dialogue, I still fail to see how the dialogue in most of the Marvel movies is SO much better, yet I never seem to hear anyone complain about that. I finally saw Thor 2 last night, and damn near every character not named Thor or Loki had TERRIBLE lines. Also, the story was MUCH weaker than MOS.

I don't want to turn this into a DC vs. Marvel thing, because I do enjoy both universes. I just feel like people give those movies WAY more leeway than anything DC.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:36 AM   #305
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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If someone where I worked looked exactly like Barack Obama (but wore glasses), and he was never in the same room when Barack Obama was on live TV, I'm pretty sure I'd know it was Barack Obama.

And I'm pretty sure everyone in the building would think so as well.

----

But again. Who cares.

In a realistic world, the military in MOS would know who Superman was right away by investigating the Kent's farm.

In a realistic world, people would also be wondering why the aliens speak English.
There have been a plethora of incidents where he has dealt with exactly those kinds of scenarios in the comics. Now, they may not have all been the most realistic "solutions," but it isn't a stretch to figure out ways of throwing people off his track in the movies.

But yes, does it really matter?

Regarding all the attention he allowed to get close to his home, and with Lois constantly calling him, YELLING, "CLARK," in front of police and military, they REALLY pushed the boundaries of suspension of disbelief there.

Now, the aliens speaking English, though done in SOOOOO many sci fi films and shows, without a nod as to why/how, and I DID roll my eyes a bit watching MOS; HOWEVER, they actually DID give a nod to an explanation.
The scene with the hijacking of all media devices shows the transmission in other languages around the world.
So, clearly they are shown to know the languages of the world, or at least able to garner that knowledge when they arrive.
They are supposed to be millions of years beyond us as a species, so the notion that they are informed on the languages of others, or able to learn them in a short period of time, especially after having done so much exploring of the universe in their past, is not pushing reality that much.

I just like to assume that, PRIOR to heading to Earth, on Krypton, and in their prison ship, they were actually speaking Kryptonian languages, and it was the film fall back of auto translation.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:41 AM   #306
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

The typical complaint about Goyer is about characterizations and story rather than dialogue.

I guess we can't criticize Goyer now. Did his association with TDK suddenly make him untouchable?

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #307
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The typical complaint about Goyer is about characterizations and story rather than dialogue.

I guess we can't criticize Goyer now. Did his association with TDK suddenly make him untouchable?
Huh?

People here complain about his dialogue ALL THE TIME. Where have you been?

And no one is saying that you can't criticize him. He's certainly done his share of poor work (Blade 3 jumps out at me). I just think people turn their scrutiny up to 11 when evaluating his work, which they don't seem to do with anyone else involved with these types of movies.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:10 AM   #308
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Huh?

People here complain about his dialogue ALL THE TIME. Where have you been?

And no one is saying that you can't criticize him. He's certainly done his share of poor work (Blade 3 jumps out at me). I just think people turn their scrutiny up to 11 when evaluating his work, which they don't seem to do with anyone else involved with these types of movies.
Yeah, I still say people have a bigger problem with Goyer's characterizations and storylines than his dialogue.

Right now people get the most defensive when you attack Nolan or Whedon and now it seems like Goyer is steadily joining those ranks. No one should be above criticism, especially people with flawed records,like Goyer.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #309
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Somehow Nolan is always ends up unscathed when it comes to the Goyer hate. As if these two weren't partnered up for the better part of a decade. As if filmmaking doesn't involve the minds of multiple individuals.

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To me, Man of Steel just felt to me like Snyder and Goyer tried to make Superman look less, and simple next to Batman, like yeah Superman is good, he's cool, but not as interesting as Batman.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:31 AM   #310
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Yeah, I still say people have a bigger problem with Goyer's characterizations and storylines than his dialogue.

Right now people get the most defensive when you attack Nolan or Whedon and now it seems like Goyer is steadily joining those ranks. No one should be above criticism, especially people with flawed records,like Goyer.
Is there anyone out there with a flawless record?

There's a difference between criticism and just flat-out complaining. When people complain about every tiny thing someone does, or blow everything out of proportion (MOS was a total failure, MOS was a terrible film, Goyer is a failure), it gets to the point where logic has to step in.

They gave Superman realistic challenges to face in this day and age. The secret identity thing is my absolute least favorite thing about Superman, and I'll be happy if a few people know, or if he has to work harder to keep the identity. I'm cautiously optimistic that Goyer and Snyder won't rely too much on stupid comic relief to deal with the identity issue...and I'm hopeful that a few of the people closest to Clark are allowed to be intelligent and trust-worthy enough to figure out and keep his secret.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:45 AM   #311
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Is there anyone out there with a flawless record?
Hmmm. John Cazale?

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:49 AM   #312
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Christopher Nolan has a flawless record.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:54 AM   #313
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

That's subjective (although in my personal opinion, I agree). And here's the rub - it's all personal preference. Messiah says most of the foyer complaints are characterization and storyline based? Well IMO, he has one of the best records in the genre for absolutely nailing both. Depending on the director it turns out on a different part of the scale, but his storyline and characterization are consistently faithful but fresh depictions of their characters. IMO.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:59 AM   #314
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Here's a question. How would you feel about Goyer DIRECTING a DC film?

That's one area where I think he's been decidedly terrible. The Unborn and Blade Trinity are two of the worst movies I've ever seen. I've heard The Invisible really sucks too, though I don't know. However, one would hope he's learned a few things since then.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:04 AM   #315
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Christopher Nolan has a flawless record.
Well, apparently not in choosing who he works with if Goyer is such a hack (in other people's words, not yours).

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:15 AM   #316
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I'm 50/50 about Goyer writing skills, SPECIALLY in the plot and characterization department :P

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:32 AM   #317
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well, apparently not in choosing who he works with if Goyer is such a hack (in other people's words, not yours).
Haha...good point.

Seriously some of what people are saying is nonsensical.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:33 AM   #318
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Hmmm. John Cazale?
this is true.

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Christopher Nolan has a flawless record.
this is not.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:34 AM   #319
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well, apparently not in choosing who he works with if Goyer is such a hack (in other people's words, not yours).


Game, set and match Mr(I presume) Krumm.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:45 AM   #320
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Here's a question. How would you feel about Goyer DIRECTING a DC film?

That's one area where I think he's been decidedly terrible. The Unborn and Blade Trinity are two of the worst movies I've ever seen. I've heard The Invisible really sucks too, though I don't know. However, one would hope he's learned a few things since then.
He definitely wouldn't be toward the top of my list, lol. Writing and directing are two tremendously different abilities (even though some have the propensity for both). Never seen the unborn but blade trinity wasn't very good (although not nearly as bad as some make it out to be either).

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:56 AM   #321
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Eh, I thought Blade Trinity was pretty terrible. I'm by no means a Goyer hater but I can't defend him on that one. That might have been the WORST depiction of Dracula I've seen yet (maybe worse than Gerard Butler's Michael Hutchence Dracula). And that was one movie where the use of the F-word really annoyed me. I ordinarily have no problem with cursing in movies, but it just seemed like they were trying to find ways to insert f*** in every other line, as if they had to fill some sort of quota or were attempting to create a Blade college drinking game.

That said, I hope that Goyer has learned a few things since then in terms of direction. Because I just have a feeling that sooner or later he's going to end up directing a DC property.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:03 AM   #322
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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1) Culture has changed. Goofiness isn't as popular as it used to be.
2) MoS is constructed to be a serious movie set in a serious universe, which means viewers need serious world-building.
This right here. The idea that a few weak gags change the utter serious tone of MOS is an unnatural stretch. There were fewer laugh out loud moments here than in Batman Begins. The idea that Man of Steel was in any way whimsical or even stylized has no real merit. Even the funny moments: the truck skewering or the drone dropping were couched in an extremely serious character development moment, and were easily as dangerous as they were funny.

So there's no room for throwing in "F*** realism" when the whole movie has been the very opposite. If MOS was an "F*** realism" movie, like a Pixar film or X-Men Wolverine: Origins, then I'd say, yeah F*** realism, but that's not what MOS was or is, so let's not pretend that no one cares about the world building.

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I personally don't get this complaint.
Of all films to question a cheesy romance dialogue trade(after surviving calamity) I'd say action film is at the bottom.


...

The picking and choosing this film has faced knows no bounds imo. Did the line in speed simply make more sense?

For my two cents, I could have seen Reeve delivering this exact line and there would have been none the wiser.
1) It's not the 80s. Cheesy lines aren't as charming as they used to be.
2) The "kissing humans" line was not typical of the

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:10 AM   #323
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Oh, so a predominantly serious movie can't have ANY lighthearted or goofy moments? A movie that strives for a "real world" tone can't have anything that requires the audience to suspend disbelief a bit? Got it.


Funny, I thought suspension of disbelief is somewhat mandatory when watching A MOVIE ABOUT A MAN WHO CAN F**KING FLY.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:13 AM   #324
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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This right here. The idea that a few weak gags change the utter serious tone of MOS is an unnatural stretch. There were fewer laugh out loud moments here than in Batman Begins. The idea that Man of Steel was in any way whimsical or even stylized has no real merit. Even the funny moments: the truck skewering or the drone dropping were couched in an extremely serious character development moment, and were easily as dangerous as they were funny.

So there's no room for throwing in "F*** realism" when the whole movie has been the very opposite. If MOS was an "F*** realism" movie, like a Pixar film or X-Men Wolverine: Origins, then I'd say, yeah F*** realism, but that's not what MOS was or is, so let's not pretend that no one cares about the world building.



1) It's not the 80s. Cheesy lines aren't as charming as they used to be.
2) The "kissing humans" line was not typical of the
I didn't think Goyer included any character development.

Also, those movies were the 90's so not nearly as dated.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:26 AM   #325
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The aliens made the announcement that they were looking for a specific man.

And then landed at an exact specific house and destroyed it.

After that Superman took the battle to another street. So the aliens didn't randomly land anywhere, they landed exactly where they wanted and Superman took them away from his house.

So the people know where Superman lives now because that is where the aliens landed.

What else have you got?
They destroyed a lot of things. Not just the Kent house. They destroyed half of Smallville.

And the layperson would know that they weren't just at the Kent farm trying to find out how to find someone or get somewhere else...how?

And the layperson would know that maybe they weren't just taking a hostage or something...how?

And who, pray tell, SAW them at the Kent farm? Again, it's a remote location, and for all we know, Zod's ships have some kind of cloaking tech. Lord knows they travel fast enough that most people wouldn't see them landing.

What else have you got?

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