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Old 11-21-2013, 12:02 PM   #51
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I can understand that opinion for TDK but not TDKR. He was the main guy. It was his story.

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Old 11-21-2013, 12:19 PM   #52
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I can understand that opinion for TDK but not TDKR. He was the main guy. It was his story.
Absolutely.

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Old 11-21-2013, 12:33 PM   #53
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I was fine with the amount of focus on Batman in Rises.

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Old 11-21-2013, 12:37 PM   #54
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To be fair...some people would say the same thing about Bale in TDK/TDKR.
Bale's turn in TDK is oftentimes underrated IMO.

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Old 11-21-2013, 12:44 PM   #55
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Very underrated.

Too many people who don't know much about acting think that the loudest performances steal the show or should be rewarded. The quiet, subtle performances should be recognized. Sometimes more. I always say to people watch Tarantino's Jackie Brown for Deniro's super quiet & subtle performance where you dont hear much dialogue out of Louis but it's all in his expressions. You can see what he's feeling. Most would just compliment the likes of Sam Jackson, Pam Grier, Michael Keaton, etc in that movie (who are all great), but Deniro does something special. Now i dont think Bale's nuance was that great in comparison, but it's still my point that he was just as awesome as the other actors.

Bale did a great job as Bruce Wayne in TDK even though he didnt "steal the show" like Heath or Aaron Eckhart, or even Gary Oldman.


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Old 11-21-2013, 12:52 PM   #56
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To be fair...some people would say the same thing about Bale in TDK/TDKR.
I know, but it doesn't make sense, because he's still the main guy and has lots to do in both. The stories are revolving around Batman. TDK is all about the consequences of Batman on Gotham. TDKR is about his rise back to being Batman. If they mean his performance is overshadowed by the villains then that's subjective. Understandable but subjective.

Whereas with Keaton's Batman, neither movie is focused on his Batman or Bruce Wayne. The villains are carrying the story. He really doesn't get much to do.

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Old 11-21-2013, 01:00 PM   #57
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I know, but it doesn't make sense, because he's still the main guy and has lots to do in both. The stories are revolving around Batman. TDK is all about the consequences of Batman on Gotham. TDKR is about his rise back to being Batman. If they mean his performance is overshadowed by the villains then that's subjective. Understandable but subjective.

Whereas with Keaton's Batman, neither movie is focused on his Batman or Bruce Wayne. The villains are carrying the story. He really doesn't get much to do.
Yeah it's too bad, i would have liked a third movie where it was all about Bruce Wayne. Maybe bringing Dick Grayson into it like in Forever but not as campy and keeping with the dark element of the first two. All the stuff we saw in Forever (especially the deleted scenes) where Bruce confronts his fears in the cave would have been awesome with Keaton.

Im not a fan of directors going up against both Joker and Riddler, there's just too many similarities and possibilites for repetition. Im sure that's why Burton only did Joker, Shumacher did Riddler, Nolan did Joker, Affleck will probably direct 1 of them who knows. So the idea of Burton doing Riddler for the 3rd movie, played by Robin Williams, sounded too much like the aged Nicholson-Joker casting. So a third introspective Wayne story with Keaton/Russo at the helm and maybe Two-Face as the villain could have been much better. Showing the parallels of Harvey and Bruce's duality while tying in the whole Robin origin. Making Keaton's "killer batman" evolve into a true hero with more rules to his system.

That could have rounded out a trilogy for that franchise that could rival TDK trilogy. But i guess it wasn't meant to be, and what ended up happening lead us to Bale's interpretation.

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Old 11-21-2013, 01:07 PM   #58
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I know, but it doesn't make sense, because he's still the main guy and has lots to do in both. The stories are revolving around Batman. TDK is all about the consequences of Batman on Gotham. TDKR is about his rise back to being Batman. If they mean his performance is overshadowed by the villains then that's subjective. Understandable but subjective.
As I said about Keaton being upstaged by Nicholson in B89, it is only really because of the nature of the Joker character that Heath "stole the show" in TDK. It's not as if he had more screentime or story focus than Bruce/Batman at all. The Joker is simply a scene-stealer and rightfully so. I wouldn't have had it any other way.

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Whereas with Keaton's Batman, neither movie is focused on his Batman or Bruce Wayne. The villains are carrying the story. He really doesn't get much to do.
The lack of focus on Bruce Wayne in B89 was for a reason, to create an aura of mystery around this man. We were not meant to know very much about him at all. In fact, much of what we learn about him comes from dialogue between other characters when Bruce isn't even present. And again, Nicholson was able to chew the scenery as much as he wanted to, so it's understandable how some would view his performance as more noteworthy than Keaton's. I would still say that Bruce/Batman was very much the main character and focus of the film. His character arc just wasn't presented to us with the classic superhero origin formula we're all so familiar with now.

With Batman Returns, however, I agree that the villains carry the story and have WAY too much focus compared to Batman. There's no excuse for the amount of time that Bruce/Batman just goes missing from the film. Some would argue that JGL as Blake had too much screentime in TDKR. Well, I think a greater injustice was the focus on Max Schreck (and even Penguin) in Batman Returns while we have a healthy, active Batman in Gotham who is relegated to what feels like a supporting role.

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Old 11-21-2013, 01:57 PM   #59
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I can understand that opinion for TDK but not TDKR. He was the main guy. It was his story.
He is referring to character popularity (not in the context of the story). People on average talked a lot more about Bane than Batman after they saw it.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:17 AM   #60
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Very underrated.

Too many people who don't know much about acting think that the loudest performances steal the show or should be rewarded. The quiet, subtle performances should be recognized. Sometimes more. I always say to people watch Tarantino's Jackie Brown for Deniro's super quiet & subtle performance where you dont hear much dialogue out of Louis but it's all in his expressions. You can see what he's feeling. Most would just compliment the likes of Sam Jackson, Pam Grier, Michael Keaton, etc in that movie (who are all great), but Deniro does something special. Now i dont think Bale's nuance was that great in comparison, but it's still my point that he was just as awesome as the other actors.

Bale did a great job as Bruce Wayne in TDK even though he didnt "steal the show" like Heath or Aaron Eckhart, or even Gary Oldman.
I totally see your point, but for me my disappointment with Bale in TDK isn't because there are "bigger" performances, it's simply because he felt bored half the time and the whole film, on a script level and up, seemed to swallow the character of Bruce up without much chance to stand out. The only standout part of Bales performance in the film is his scene in the penthouse, confiding in Alfred. The script needed to be more about Bruce/Batman than it was. It felt more like a Joker/Harvey story with Batman in it. This is the main reason I find TDK to be somewhat overrated.

Rises is much more a Batman story imo, even if the suite isn't on screen all that much.


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Old 11-22-2013, 09:29 AM   #61
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I can see how it may come across that way, but it's not the case for me. I dont see Bale being bored at all. That's just Bruce Wayne. I look at it as a city story, as do the filmmakers. Not a story about Joker or Harvey, even though you can say it's much more about Dent in comparison. It's a Gotham City story.

The movie is perfect the way it is IMO, so i cant say it needed to be more about Bruce. It was still about Bruce at the end of the day though and Batman. Perhaps more about Batman this time around while the films that bookended the entire trilogy were more about Bruce. And it still ends on a Batman-note, which makes it more of a "Batman film" than Batman Returns which begins with Penguin & ends with Catwoman.

I dont see how you can say as matter of factly "it's simply because he felt bored half the time". How do you know that? I seriously doubt it.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:42 AM   #62
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Between the Nolans admitting that they wrote Harvey as the protagonist of TDK and Ledger's performance, I can see why people think TDK isn't Batman's movie, even though it ultimately is.

Either way, The Nolan trilogy showed me that you can make the films revolve around Bruce, and people will still rave about the villains instead. I think the upcoming Batman vs Superman film will possibly be one of the occasions where people talk about Batman instead of the villain when the walk out of the theatre.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:21 AM   #63
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I can see how it may come across that way, but it's not the case for me. I dont see Bale being bored at all. That's just Bruce Wayne. I look at it as a city story, as do the filmmakers. Not a story about Joker or Harvey, even though you can say it's much more about Dent in comparison. It's a Gotham City story.

The movie is perfect the way it is IMO, so i cant say it needed to be more about Bruce. It was still about Bruce at the end of the day though and Batman. Perhaps more about Batman this time around while the films that bookended the entire trilogy were more about Bruce. And it still ends on a Batman-note, which makes it more of a "Batman film" than Batman Returns which begins with Penguin & ends with Catwoman.

I dont see how you can say as matter of factly "it's simply because he felt bored half the time". How do you know that? I seriously doubt it.
I'm not stating I think he was actually bored, merely that his performance is boring for the most part. He just gives a lazy show imo. Almost everything out of the Batsuit he just kinda dully drops out of his mouth. There is a monotone delivery in his lines he doesn't really have in BB or TDKR.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:01 PM   #64
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Charles Roven briefly talks about Heath Ledger around the 18 min mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYhki-vrUc0

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:09 PM   #65
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I'm not stating I think he was actually bored, merely that his performance is boring for the most part. He just gives a lazy show imo. Almost everything out of the Batsuit he just kinda dully drops out of his mouth. There is a monotone delivery in his lines he doesn't really have in BB or TDKR.
I disagree with that. That's the way Bruce is when he's completely in batman obsession mode, even as Bruce in private. TDK was when he was most sucked into the persona. Monotone or cold is just Bruce Wayne. But are you going to tell me that his billionaire playboy was boring in that movie? That's just weird if you say yes, because he was extremely charismatic.


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Old 11-22-2013, 03:34 PM   #66
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I still haven't stopped listening to the score of this movie regularly. It's just so amazingly dark and brutal, yet inspirational. Imagine the Fire is probably my favorite cue Zimmer has ever done, and that's saying a lot cause I enjoy a lot of his work. Sends a chill down my spine every time.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:42 PM   #67
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Between the Nolans admitting that they wrote Harvey as the protagonist of TDK and Ledger's performance, I can see why people think TDK isn't Batman's movie, even though it ultimately is.

Either way, The Nolan trilogy showed me that you can make the films revolve around Bruce, and people will still rave about the villains instead. I think the upcoming Batman vs Superman film will possibly be one of the occasions where people talk about Batman instead of the villain when the walk out of the theatre.
That's because Batman is the celestial body that everyone revolves around. He's the rock, and the catalyst for everything that happens in the film. That by default makes him kind of boring compared to everyone else, because he's the stationary characterization.

Some people might believe that Joker is the catalyst in TDK, but I think the film points to Bruce as misplacing his priorities and letting Joker get the drop on them. "One man or the entire mob? He can wait."

Batman doesn't let himself feel as affected as everyone else. He can't, because he's supposed to be the rock. Not only in the film, but in character too. That's what the symbol means.

But that doesn't mean he's impassive. My reaction every time I watch TDK and reach the ending, is to gather Batman in my arms and give him a big extended hug, because the poor man needs it.

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Old 11-22-2013, 04:30 PM   #68
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I still haven't stopped listening to the score of this movie regularly. It's just so amazingly dark and brutal, yet inspirational. Imagine the Fire is probably my favorite cue Zimmer has ever done, and that's saying a lot cause I enjoy a lot of his work. Sends a chill down my spine every time.
Oh man, me too! I always go back to this score. It's so dark but emotional.

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Old 11-22-2013, 04:36 PM   #69
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I was watching I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here! the other night and all they played was TDKT music.

I hate that they use the music for reality television, it cheapens it so much. But it reminded me how phenomenal it really is. I quickly went up stairs and got my CD's out.

Apologies for watching I'm A Celebrity... in advance.

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Old 11-22-2013, 04:46 PM   #70
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I still haven't stopped listening to the score of this movie regularly. It's just so amazingly dark and brutal, yet inspirational. Imagine the Fire is probably my favorite cue Zimmer has ever done, and that's saying a lot cause I enjoy a lot of his work. Sends a chill down my spine every time.
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Oh man, me too! I always go back to this score. It's so dark but emotional.
Same here.

The first couple minutes of Imagine the Fire and the first 3:30 of No Stone Unturned are so high-octane and emotionally riveting.

My favorite stretch of music has to be the moment when the bridge blows in the climax. The fast-paced music picks up, then we cut to Batman and Lucius telling him he has 10 minutes to divert the bomb to his location. Then of course that part when Batman guides the missile into the tumbler, and the notes keep increasing and elevating in intensity to the point when the Bat is firing at the truck.

Just pure energy for me. Utterly overwhelming and unforgettable.

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Old 11-22-2013, 05:05 PM   #71
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Same here.

The first couple minutes of Imagine the Fire and the first 3:30 of No Stone Unturned are so high-octane and emotionally riveting.

My favorite stretch of music has to be the moment when the bridge blows in the climax. The fast-paced music picks up, then we cut to Batman and Lucius telling him he has 10 minutes to divert the bomb to his location. Then of course that part when Batman guides the missile into the tumbler, and the notes keep increasing and elevating in intensity to the point when the Bat is firing at the truck.

Just pure energy for me. Utterly overwhelming and unforgettable.
YES. This.

The chant just added so much to those sections too. It's weird because despite it being a shouted chant rather than the more typical Hollywood use of choir, I found it really emotional. Yet, intimidating when it's used for Bane.

That's what I love so much about the score (and the movie too). It walks that razors edge of intensity and bleakness and balances it with optimism and inspiration.

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Old 11-22-2013, 05:41 PM   #72
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^ Well put, brother.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:31 PM   #73
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I think The Dark Knight is definitely Dent and Joker's movie than it is Bruce/Batman's. They even discuss this in the screenplay book, that was the intent. I mean, TLH was the inspiration for the film and Dent is definitely the central character in a mystery/whodunit story. Batman is basically a dumbed down Clarice Starling in the book. He only reacts to things and doesn't even solve anything at the end. He definitely takes a back seat to Dent, Selina, Alberto and the other colorful characters. The only time the focus shifts is for "Mother's Day" as well as the Thomas Wayne subplot involving Falcone.

I'd even argue that Gordon overshadows Batman in The Dark Knight. Batman does take back the film in the last 8 mins and remains the title character, but the Joker and Harvey Dent are the gears that are turning that story. The film doesn't open with Bruce Wayne or Batman, it opens with a fantastic bank heist . . . led by the Joker. From that point on, it's everyone reacting to the Joker, including Batman. Gordon thinks he's a threat, Batman doesn't care. The mob thinks he's a nobody, then the tables turn and everyone in Gotham fears the Joker. The most important plot though is the rise and fall of Harvey Dent. It's pretty much central from the court scene where he's depicted as an all-american hero, to the very end when he's holding a gun to a boy's head. Batman playing second fiddle to them isn't actually a bad thing. I don't see why everyone gets so caught up with that in the comics and movies when it's clear that the villains help define Batman. He has arguably the best villains and rogues gallery. Nothing compares to them.

It didn't matter what the story was. When you have the Joker and Two-Face in your Batman film, they're going to steal the show. The virals and marketing for the film alone was proof of this. What was the most exciting thing about Batman other than the new suit and Batpod? Not much. His character shined in Batman Begins, as it should.


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Old 11-22-2013, 10:20 PM   #74
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Fair enough. Good points there.

I still think the whole Bruce and Fox meeting that goes into the Hong Kong sequence is still alot of Batman. It might be related to the mob but stuff like that never really happened with say...Batman Returns. I felt more from Bruce/Bats in TDK than that movie even though people say he's playing third fiddle to Dent & Joker.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:51 PM   #75
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I still think the whole Bruce and Fox meeting that goes into the Hong Kong sequence is still alot of Batman. It might be related to the mob
Yeah, no argument there. I love that stuff (till he talks, save for the interrogation scene).

I'm not saying Bruce/Batman is non-essential in the movie but it is more of a "Dent and Joker show". The Joker isn't even on screen for long periods of time but still has this massive impact that the other characters don't have. What's Bruce/Batman doing while the crucial hospital scene where the Joker pushes Dent? He's involved in side plot #12 protecting a second, secondary character. Not saying that's a "bad thing", that's just how the character is used in the story up until the very end.



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It might be related to the mob but stuff like that never really happened with say...Batman Returns.
Batman got the short end of the stick in Returns, which is a real shame. The scenes he's in he really shines, but it's essentially just showing up then disappearing until another 20 mins go by. The villains just devour the screen time with their back stories, development and struggle which sours it a bit for me.

In the original script there was more to Bruce/Batman. They had this whole "angry Batman" angle where he felt like Gotham was pathetic and unappreciative of him. That's actually a really interesting concept that I don't think has ever been used before. A Batman that's compelled to fighting crime and serving justice but detests the corrupt city he's in. It REALLY gets played up when the city turns on him after he's framed by the Penguin. He can't believe how easily the city and mayor side with Cobblepot.


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In the actual film? Absolutely none of that. He has some good scenes but it's that kind of situation where you're actually wanting to see more of him. Atleast that's how it is for me. Batman Returns and TDKR are the worst in terms of BATMAN. The "made up" characters like Max Shreck and John Blake that are crucial to the plot are the ones that kill it for me.




I don't mind Batman playing "third fiddle" (or even fourth fiddle in regards to Gordon) for the Dark Knight. He serves his purpose in the film, especially at the end. When you have a flamboyant and charismatic character like the Joker and a character arc like Harvey Two-Face, that situation is bound to happen. As long as the villains are gold, I don't see how that's a complaint. It's the same deal as Batman '89. The Joker should be the televised, show stealing, showman while Batman is the opposite, fighting him from the shadows. While Nicholson Joker gets more time in the spotlight, Batman arguably has the better, more memorable entrances and scenes. They should contrast each other.


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