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Old 11-22-2013, 09:16 PM   #451
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well, we know he was able to adapt as a child, given that he had not evolved in this environment.
Given that he's stronger as an adult, as well as having developed from his yellow sun exposure, that he was able to recover from the atmosphere far more quickly than it took him to initially adapt.
This makes sense to me, but the easy fix for Zod overcoming what should be a pretty debilitating adjustment just didn't work. It throw all that logic right out the window...lol

Like I said...don't hurt your brain because you will trying to figure that crap out.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:26 PM   #452
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

When Zod overcomes that atmosphere problem, I see it like something exceptional. It makes him a really, really, dangerous foe.
And by this way to see it, Zod's death by Superman makes a lot of sens. It's logical, it was impossible to capture him alive, unless fighting for eternity.
And eternity is a long thing, especially near the end.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:37 PM   #453
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When Zod overcomes that atmosphere problem, I see it like something exceptional. It makes him a really, really, dangerous foe.
And by this way to see it, Zod's death by Superman makes a lot of sens. It's logical, it was impossible to capture him alive, unless fighting for eternity.
And eternity is a long thing, especially near the end.
LOLOL. Good point!

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:53 PM   #454
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Oh, so a predominantly serious movie can't have ANY lighthearted or goofy moments? A movie that strives for a "real world" tone can't have anything that requires the audience to suspend disbelief a bit? Got it.

Funny, I thought suspension of disbelief is somewhat mandatory when watching A MOVIE ABOUT A MAN WHO CAN F**KING FLY.
Whoa there, let's talk about what I actually said.

I said MOS had funny moments, I said it was not whimsical. I said nothing about suspension of disbelief.

But since you want that: suspending disbelief is done in every film, but most films strive for some sort of versimilitude to the real world or "realism," therefore, they do not give a middle finger to realism, because they incorporate as much real life into their story as possible. This is part of what gives the story it's emotional power. This is often called "world building." It is the skill storytellers use to guide the audience emotionally from their world into the world of the story and keep them there. You can always spot world building when storytellers give somewhat plausible explanations to things that would never happen in real life.

Case in point: Superman doesn't have powers because **** realism it's a superhero film. He has powers because his body functions normally on lower levels of solar energy in a higher gravity field. Would never happen, but you have sated all but the physicists desire to have their world connect with the world of the story.

If "F*** realism" were an optimal way to achieve suspension of disbelief, this explanation would not exist, much less be repeated and popular.

Realism is so very important for the suspension of disbelief, that if something in a story doesn't make sense, it's called a plot hole. Who ever says "the audience failed to suspend their disbelief enough to enjoy the film?" Rather, people say "This part didn't make any sense, the movie is bad."

This effect happens often in movies that say F*** realism and do not do their world building job in inviting the audience to suspend disbelief. X-Men Wolverine Origins. Green Lantern. Elektra. It's not a coincidence that screenwriters who can't be bothered to invite the audience to suspend their disbelief properly can't write good dialogue or story either.

So I agree with your final idea, suspension of disbelief is mandatory. The issue is, that the burden to create a bridge to suspend that disbelief is on the storyteller, not the audience. It always has been for every successful film.

This is why the glasses as implemented in MOS, are a failure in world building, and do not help support the suspension of disbelief. A skilled screenwriter will address the dual identity in a way that is realistic, and not make the proven mistake of expecting the audience to simply accept something that is not realistic with no explanation in a film that goes out of its way to explain everything else that's unrealistic.

The slouching trick works in comics when you can draw the characters dramatically differently but still have them interact in normal natural ways. In real life, there needs to be a reason why a room full of reporters never figures out that the guy they're covering and the guy covering the guy they're covering are the same guy. Especially in light of what the world knows about Superman already... that is: he knows with Lois Lane.

Skip all the who saw what aliens where and did the policemen hear Lois say "Clark" to Superman. Everyone on the planet knows Superman knows Lois Lane, so if someone's looking for Superman, who's known associates do they start with.

It's really bad guys.

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I didn't think Goyer included any character development.

Also, those movies were the 90's so not nearly as dated.
That's not fair. He did have character development. Clark became Superman, in so many words. That was an arc.

90s it is though, yeah. It's like, as soon as I realize the 90s weren't ten years ago I think they're the 80s. Headspace is a trip.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:06 PM   #455
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Clark Kent's character arc in MoS, I think, is not so much that he became Superman, as he only became Superman because Jor-El told him it was his destiny to do so, so that doesn't count as an arc since it is just listening to instructions and implementing them. It'a also not that he saved people, as he had been saving people his entire life.

I think the character arc is that he grew more assertive and self-confident in how he saved people and interacted with the world. 33 year old Clark was different from the boy who lifted the school bus in that he didn't do so hiding behind his parents afterwards, or whatever, he spoke for himself. He knew what he needed to do and how to do, he could speak to the military on his own terms and know what to say, and with Lois Lane's love he no longer needed to completely hide. He had someone he could confide in.


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Old 11-22-2013, 11:17 PM   #456
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I think the character arc is that he grew more assertive and self-confident in how he saved people and interacted with the world. 33 year old Clark was different from the boy who lifted the school bus in that he didn't do so hiding behind his parents afterwards, or whatever, he spoke for himself. He knew what he needed to do and how to do, he could speak to the military on his own terms and know what to say, and with Lois Lane's love he no longer needed to completely hide. He had someone he could confide in.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:18 PM   #457
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

lolololol that gif...lol

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:39 AM   #458
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense


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Old 11-23-2013, 04:36 AM   #459
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

As someone who wears glasses and contact lenses, and people in my life who don't realise I wear one or the other regularly don't recognise me when they see me wearing or not wearing glasses for the first time, it annoys me that Goyer honestly thinks they're backed up into some corner over this.

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Old 11-23-2013, 07:37 AM   #460
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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As someone who wears glasses and contact lenses, and people in my life who don't realise I wear one or the other regularly don't recognise me when they see me wearing or not wearing glasses for the first time, it annoys me that Goyer honestly thinks they're backed up into some corner over this.
I think it depends on the face. Some people look different with their glasses on and some don't.

I just think the problem in MOS is how much harder they've made it for Superman to hide his identity, especially from the government. But, then again... they are the guys who feel the need to spend at least $12 million to figure it out. So, maybe it was Goyer's way at taking a dig the government spending.

But, we all know how things would really be...




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Old 11-23-2013, 08:05 AM   #461
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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No, but they live far away enough that it is entirely possible that no one saw what actually happened.
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I'm going to have to disagree with the assertion that the Kryptonians went to and from the Kent Farm without anyone, particularly the military, knowing about it. So they live far away from anyone else, that's fine. There's an entire scene of Swanwick and NorthComm tracking the two drop ships descending from Black Zero. It's pointed out that they enter Kansas airspace. At no point is it suggested that the military loses track of the ships, or that the ships engage a cloaking device of any kind. Therefore, based on what is presented on the screen, I think the only logical assumption is that the military was able to track the ships to the Kent Farm.
@The Guard
I think we disagree on a fundamental level about the scenario at hand and we should just accept that we think differently.

You happen to think that aliens announcing they want a specific man, and then going to his house in UFOs will somehow go absolutely unnoticed and nobody will know the man they were looking for. That his identity is still as secure as if none of this actually happened.

I happen to think that's not even possible. I think all US journalists would be swarming the city and going back from the route of battle to where the destruction began and the house Superman lived in (as a human) would be the first thing to be reported on national television next morning and his identity immediately known. And there could be no question of hiding his identity in any way.

We just see logic differently. So peace.

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:16 AM   #462
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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That's not fair. He did have character development. Clark became Superman, in so many words. That was an arc.
I was being facetious. Many like to claim there is none but as you pointed out, Goyer even uses small jokey moments to further his character.

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90s it is though, yeah. It's like, as soon as I realize the 90s weren't ten years ago I think they're the 80s. Headspace is a trip.
Ha, happens to me all the time.

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:20 AM   #463
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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As someone who wears glasses and contact lenses, and people in my life who don't realise I wear one or the other regularly don't recognise me when they see me wearing or not wearing glasses for the first time, it annoys me that Goyer honestly thinks they're backed up into some corner over this.
That's very rare though. I've had that happen to me once, but every other time people just say "I like your glasses" or something to that effect.

Even in Smallville when Clark once wore glasses, someone (could've been Chloe) just said to him "nice new glasses Clark." No-one thought "who is this guy? I don't recognise him at all." They all just acknowledged him as Clark but with glasses on, which is usually the way it is in real life.

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:24 AM   #464
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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@The Guard
I think we disagree on a fundamental level about the scenario at hand and we should just accept that we think differently.

You happen to think that aliens announcing they want a specific man, and then going to his house in UFOs will somehow go absolutely unnoticed and nobody will know the man they were looking for. That his identity is still as secure as if none of this actually happened.

I happen to think that's not even possible. I think all US journalists would be swarming the city and going back from the route of battle to where the destruction began and the house Superman lived in (as a human) would be the first thing to be reported on national television next morning and his identity immediately known. And there could be no question of hiding his identity in any way.

We just see logic differently. So peace.
If a powerful faction in the military decides to protect his secret from public consumption by imposing a no investigative journalism zone around Smallville, then there will be no issue. The media in the US is extremely obedient to the government.

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:29 AM   #465
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That's very rare though. I've had that happen to me once, but every other time people just say "I like your glasses" or something to that effect.

Even in Smallville when Clark once wore glasses, someone (could've been Chloe) just said to him "nice new glasses Clark." No-one thought "who is this guy? I don't recognise him at all." They all just acknowledged him as Clark but with glasses on, which is usually the way it is in real life.
What comes to mind is Jeff the intern. He bumped into Clark and was all fearful and freaking out as if Clark would beat him up or something. Lois tells him to look up and notice Clark has glasses. Clark says it was his fault and Jeff now has the confidence to tell Clark watch where he's going like he was pushover since the day he met him...

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:47 AM   #466
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If a powerful faction in the military decides to protect his secret from public consumption by imposing a no investigative journalism zone around Smallville, then there will be no issue. The media in the US is extremely obedient to the government.
The scene with the satellite implies even the military did not find out Superman's identity which is preposterous.

And regarding your point, even the government cannot stop journalists reporting and investigating something that happened in public. This isn't something classified, it is something that happened in broad daylight and threatened people's lives. It would have been reported on an discussed for years given how big of a story it is. I daresay by the end of it CNN would have interviewed every single soul in and around Smallville.

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:52 AM   #467
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I've never seen a way to make the glasses realistic no matter who the writer is.

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:00 AM   #468
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The scene with the satellite implies even the military did not find out Superman's identity which is preposterous.

And regarding your point, even the government cannot stop journalists reporting and investigating something that happened in public. This isn't something classified, it is something that happened in broad daylight and threatened people's lives. It would have been reported on an discussed for years given how big of a story it is. I daresay by the end of it CNN would have interviewed every single soul in and around Smallville.
1) We don't know what the predator drone was for. Superman assumes it was to figure out where he hangs his cape, but it may have been for other reasons. The military may have simply wanted to track him, to measure his top speed, etc and perhaps they already know his identity, but they want more information. For all we know the entire purpose of the drone was to see if Superman would destroy the drone.

2) If the military doesn't want journalists around Smallville, then they'll be gone. The media in the USA doesn't ask the hard questions, and that's both by design and due to the system. This is well-documented.

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:05 AM   #469
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1) We don't know what the predator drone was for. Superman assumes it was to figure out where he hangs his cape, but it may have been for other reasons. The military may have simply wanted to track him, to measure his top speed, etc and perhaps they already know his identity, but they want more information.

2) If the military doesn't want journalists around Smallville, then they'll be gone. The media in the USA doesn't ask the hard questions, and that's both by design and due to the system. This is well-documented.
I don't think the media could let a story as gigantic (it is basically the biggest news story in human history) as an alien invasion go away.

I don't think the government would even be within its rights to disallow reporting on this. I mean seriously?

And how about some rationale on WHY the government would prevent journalists from reporting on this?

And how about "leaks" and slippages and what not. I mean a kid living next door to the Kent farm could post an Instagram and that would be it.

How on earth can this story stay hidden?

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:18 AM   #470
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I don't think the media could let a story as gigantic (it is basically the biggest news story in human history) as an alien invasion go away.

I don't think the government would even be within its rights to disallow reporting on this. I mean seriously?
You are a true believer in the free press. In practice the American media accepts pretty much whatever the government tells them.

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And how about some rationale on WHY the government would prevent journalists from reporting on this?

And how about "leaks" and slippages and what not. I mean a kid living next door to the Kent farm could post an Instagram and that would be it.
Information is power, but it's not as powerful if everyone else has that information.

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How on earth can this story stay hidden?
The files that Bradley Manning leaked, as an example, were available to millions of officers of his rank or higher, and stayed hidden for many years. That is how well things can stay hidden.

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:22 AM   #471
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

But this happened in public. This wasn't some file. How can this be hidden? It just boggles my mind.

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #472
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But this happened in public. This wasn't some file. How can this be hidden? It just boggles my mind.
There are a lot of things that happened in public. If the military tells the media all about what happened in Metropolis and in the Indian Ocean, and they make up some stories about events in a dozen small towns, nobody employed in the media will think to go to Smallville, Kansas.

They'll just copy and paste from government press releases. There are countless historical examples of this.

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Old 11-23-2013, 09:42 AM   #473
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The best newspaper in the world never interacts with the most interesting story in human history -- the discovery of alien life -- even though he operates out of their home base of Metropolis?
The point is: how to allow kal-el to have a clark kent identity. Being surrounded by a media outlet and interacting with the staff on a day to day basis makes it basically impossible. The best way to pull it off is if his own direct coworkers and superiors are in on the secret and are part of the story that way clark can continue to live a normal day to day life, can stay on the field writting stories while still having inside information fed to him through lois and perry. That way perry white isnt simply wondering where did clark just go or why the hell he looks exactly like superman, but instead becomes a colaborator and an informant. Perry and lois having to keep that a secret themselves being reporters would play as a good plot point of personal struggle.

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Old 11-23-2013, 10:09 AM   #474
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The point is: how to allow kal-el to have a clark kent identity. Being surrounded by a media outlet and interacting with the staff on a day to day basis makes it basically impossible. The best way to pull it off is if his own direct coworkers and superiors are in on the secret and are part of the story that way clark can continue to live a normal day to day life, can stay on the field writting stories while still having inside information fed to him through lois and perry. That way perry white isnt simply wondering where did clark just go or why the hell he looks exactly like superman, but instead becomes a colaborator and an informant. Perry and lois having to keep that a secret themselves being reporters would play as a good plot point of personal struggle.
This.
There are people in this very thread that think goyer a fool for even bringing up the notion that some of this needs to be addressed.
Just like this previous movie, fans stand in the way of progress imo.

I still hope this classic idea is broached:
Superman doesn't wear a mask so who's to suspect he even has a secret Identity. No one suspects kanye has one, no one suspects Jordan has one, and no one suspected Jesus had one(as far as I figure). This isn't Zorro.

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Old 11-23-2013, 10:29 AM   #475
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Jesus was Jesus, he didn't live 2 lives (in the double identity sence if you're christian), and Jordan & Kanye who?

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