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Old 11-23-2013, 11:38 AM   #476
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
There are a lot of things that happened in public. If the military tells the media all about what happened in Metropolis and in the Indian Ocean, and they make up some stories about events in a dozen small towns, nobody employed in the media will think to go to Smallville, Kansas.

They'll just copy and paste from government press releases. There are countless historical examples of this.
Yet again. If you proposing such a theory, you should offer a reason too.

WHY would the government cover this up????

And again it is impossible to cover this up. Nowadays you don't need to be a journalist to report. Youtube and twitter means that news gets out. So people living near the Kents and the people of Smallville would definitely report one way or another. There is no way this stays hidden.

This would be like hiding 9/11 or Tiananmen Square. The U.S. isn't China to try to cover up an entire alien invasion for no rational reason of any kind.

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Old 11-23-2013, 11:54 AM   #477
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Jesus was Jesus, he didn't live 2 lives (in the double identity sence if you're christian), and Jordan & Kanye who?
The point was simply, if jesus wore a mask, or if 'michael' jordan and kanye 'west' wore masks, then people would question if they had double lives but because they don't, no one puts any thought to it.

Let's put it this way, if you saw someone that looked very much like Kanye working as a manager at burger king with big thick glasses on, most people wouldn't suspect it was his secret identity. Primarily because the real Kanye doesn't wear a mask or give the impression of a secret identity. They would most likely think this burger king manager 'looks alot like this celebrity'.
That would all change if the Kanye West we knew constantly wore a domino mask. If my best friend looked just like Kanye I'd never question if he were actually the man and that's simply the situation many of the people at the daily planet face.

Superman wears no mask, he claims to live in the clouds and when his work is done he flies up and off to olympus. Very different from the likes of Zorro who gives off every impression that he has a double human life, right down to riding off into the distance towards his mortal hideout.
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Jesus was Jesus, he didn't live 2 lives
Applied to superman and it reads like this: Superman was Superman, he didn't live 2 lives. That's what most people in his universe will think.

just a thought.

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:03 PM   #478
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Yet again. If you proposing such a theory, you should offer a reason too.

WHY would the government cover this up????
Because they don't want everybody else to know what they know. Alien life ha just revealed himself on Earth. He has a lot of powers, and there was just an alien invasion. The most rational thing to do is to use a wait-and-see approach, and that means repressing information.

Further, if other governments know then they can initiate their own investigations and maybe acquire information that the US has not picked up.

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And again it is impossible to cover this up. Nowadays you don't need to be a journalist to report. Youtube and twitter means that news gets out. So people living near the Kents and the people of Smallville would definitely report one way or another. There is no way this stays hidden.

This would be like hiding 9/11 or Tiananmen Square. The U.S. isn't China to try to cover up an entire alien invasion for no rational reason of any kind.
Hiding 9/11 or Tiananmen Square is impossible, hiding and obfuscating the details though is quite doable and in fact that is the case.

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:04 PM   #479
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The point was simply, if jesus wore a mask, or if 'michael' jordan and kanye 'west' wore masks, then people would question if they had double lives but because they don't, no one puts any thought to it.

Let's put it this way, if you saw someone that looked very much like Kanye working as a manager at burger king with big thick glasses on, most people wouldn't suspect it was his secret identity. Primarily because the real Kanye doesn't wear a mask or give the impression of a secret identity. The would most likely think this burger king manager 'looks alot like this celebrity'.
That would all change if the Kanye West we knew constantly wore a domino mask. If my best friend looked just like Kanye I'd never question if he were actually the man and that's simply the situation many of the people at the daily planet face.

Superman wears no mask, he claims to live in the clouds and when his work is done he flies up and off to olympus. Very different from the likes of Zorro who gives off every impression that he has a double human life, right down to riding off into the distance towards his mortal hideout.
Exactly!

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:11 PM   #480
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Because they don't want everybody else to know what they know. Alien life ha just revealed himself on Earth. He has a lot of powers, and there was just an alien invasion. The most rational thing to do is to use a wait-and-see approach, and that means repressing information.

Further, if other governments know then they can initiate their own investigations and maybe acquire information that the US has not picked up.


Hiding 9/11 or Tiananmen Square is impossible, hiding and obfuscating the details though is quite doable and in fact that is the case.
Hiding something as basic as where the aliens landed is impossible. They might flb the no. of UFOs and the no. of aliens but nobody can flub WHERE they landed and that was the Kent farm.

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:20 PM   #481
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Hiding something as basic as where the aliens landed is impossible. They might flb the no. of UFOs and the no. of aliens but nobody can flub WHERE they landed and that was the Kent farm.
They don't even need to deny that they landed at the Kent farm. They can instead claim that the aliens landed in 200 or 300 places, they can even instruct CNN/Fox News/MSNBC to interview "ordinary American" Martha Kent about how awful it was and about how Superman came to save her, have that interview go on for five or six seconds, then cut to the next victim, then to the next.

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:26 PM   #482
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They don't even need to deny that they landed at the Kent farm. They can instead claim that the aliens landed in 200 or 300 places, they can even instruct CNN/Fox News/MSNBC to interview "ordinary American" Martha Kent about how awful it was and about how Superman came to save her, have that interview go on for five or six seconds, then cut to the next victim, then to the next.
You know the movie has crater sized plot holes when you have to go to such absurd lengths to explain the movie.

I can't make up such fantasy scenarios. I will sooner admit that it was an ill conceived story by Nolan and Goyer. I can suspend disbelief to the extent that people don't recognize Clark with glasses on, but this hiding the alien invasion thing is beyond my tolerance limit and beyond ridiculousness. I would simply call plot hole at that point.

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #483
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The point was simply, if jesus wore a mask, or if 'michael' jordan and kanye 'west' wore masks, then people would question if they had double lives but because they don't, no one puts any thought to it.

Let's put it this way, if you saw someone that looked very much like Kanye working as a manager at burger king with big thick glasses on, most people wouldn't suspect it was his secret identity. Primarily because the real Kanye doesn't wear a mask or give the impression of a secret identity. They would most likely think this burger king manager 'looks alot like this celebrity'.
That would all change if the Kanye West we knew constantly wore a domino mask. If my best friend looked just like Kanye I'd never question if he were actually the man and that's simply the situation many of the people at the daily planet face.

Superman wears no mask, he claims to live in the clouds and when his work is done he flies up and off to olympus. Very different from the likes of Zorro who gives off every impression that he has a double human life, right down to riding off into the distance towards his mortal hideout.

Applied to superman and it reads like this: Superman was Superman, he didn't live 2 lives. That's what most people in his universe will think.

just a thought.
This all falls apart when 'glasses Kanye' works with Kim Kardashian, or if 'glasses' Jordan writes sports articles about Michael Jordan. If that were true, you would definitely question some kind of relation. If you knew Kanye/Jodran wasn't human, that would have some immediate implications.

The issue is not the random passerby on the street. The disguise works for that. It doesn't know work for people who constantly print out pictures of Superman and then walk up to Superman and say "Hey Clark, how's that Superman story coming?"

There was a person who said that their friends didn't recognize them at first in glasses. How long could they hang out with their friends and convince them it wasn't them? 40 hours a week 40 weeks a year?

It's just not credible.

The other problem is that 'glasses Kanye' is also a public figure, and so anyone, anyone at all in the world, who thinks Superman has a secret identity can go Google Lois Lane's coworkers and put two and two together.

So you have the coworkers and the conspiracy theorists of the world who have no reason not to figure out exactly who Superman/Clark Kent is, and they can do it in under thirty seconds in their free time.

Government cover ups, (still no motivation) only create more conspiracy theorists and make Superman's revelation more likely... that said... the government is interested in finding his identity, so maybe that's what they want.

Also, the idea that the government can't figure out who Clark Kent/Superman is is just plain old ridiculous with facial recognition technology and the priority of Superman's identity. They have to basically MOS Smallville it, where someone in the government knows but won't tell/classifies it.

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:36 PM   #484
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Actually, it was mostly David S Goyer's story, most of what Nolan did was aproving it.

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Old 11-23-2013, 01:56 PM   #485
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Unfortunately this is something the movie failed to clearly identify. It wasn't really clear it to me what powers Supes derived from the sun and/or the atmosphere. This was not clearly explained...at least to me.
ALL of his powers were derived from Earth's atmosphere...specifically the Sun.

The film clearly showed and told us this.

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:00 PM   #486
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Before I saw the film, I often wondered if Superman would just tell the government who he really is so he could win their trust. I think that would have been more interesting than what actually happened, but I can't fault them for not going that route.

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ALL of his powers were derived from Earth's atmosphere.

The film clearly showed and told us this.
It was a little confusing for me. I got the impression that some of his powers came from our sun and others came from our atmosphere. (I apologize in advance if that sounds stupid. )


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Old 11-23-2013, 02:05 PM   #487
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@The Guard
I think we disagree on a fundamental level about the scenario at hand and we should just accept that we think differently.

You happen to think that aliens announcing they want a specific man, and then going to his house in UFOs will somehow go absolutely unnoticed and nobody will know the man they were looking for. That his identity is still as secure as if none of this actually happened.

I happen to think that's not even possible. I think all US journalists would be swarming the city and going back from the route of battle to where the destruction began and the house Superman lived in (as a human) would be the first thing to be reported on national television next morning and his identity immediately known. And there could be no question of hiding his identity in any way.

We just see logic differently. So peace.
What you happen to think is largely irrelevant in this case. The film does not show any of those things happening, in terms of government and media response. It does not even suggest them. It is therefore not possible for you to say that they must, in that context, have occurred. That is what you are attempting to do here.

You are, in effect, actually limiting your use of logic and its impact on your perceptions by not considering the bigger picture and the larger context. You're trying to tie all this to Zod going to the Kent farm, without considering that even if it were discovered that Zod went there, that even if it were discovered he went there first, it could easily be explained away by ANY involved (Clark, Lois, Martha, the military, police, the people of Smallville, etc) as just one of Zod's "stops" on the way to downtown Smallville.

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:09 PM   #488
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
The point was simply, if jesus wore a mask, or if 'michael' jordan and kanye 'west' wore masks, then people would question if they had double lives but because they don't, no one puts any thought to it.

Let's put it this way, if you saw someone that looked very much like Kanye working as a manager at burger king with big thick glasses on, most people wouldn't suspect it was his secret identity. Primarily because the real Kanye doesn't wear a mask or give the impression of a secret identity. They would most likely think this burger king manager 'looks alot like this celebrity'.
That would all change if the Kanye West we knew constantly wore a domino mask. If my best friend looked just like Kanye I'd never question if he were actually the man and that's simply the situation many of the people at the daily planet face.

Superman wears no mask, he claims to live in the clouds and when his work is done he flies up and off to olympus. Very different from the likes of Zorro who gives off every impression that he has a double human life, right down to riding off into the distance towards his mortal hideout.

Applied to superman and it reads like this: Superman was Superman, he didn't live 2 lives. That's what most people in his universe will think.

just a thought.
Hiding in plain sight.

There are many people who resemble famous rich celebrities, no one suspects that such a celebrity could be living a double life (ordinary life)

Similarly, people view Superman as God, he wears no mask, why would he work as a reporter in a newspaper office ?

They will think it is more likely a coincidence that Clark kent has some resemblance to Superman in looks.

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:13 PM   #489
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Jesus was Jesus, he didn't live 2 lives (in the double identity sence if you're christian), and Jordan & Kanye who?
If your a Trinitarian Christian who believes in Holy Trinity where God exist as three persons then Jesus is just one of God's mild mannered carpenter disguise on earth.

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:19 PM   #490
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Before I saw the film, I often wondered if Superman would just tell the government who he really is so he could win their trust. I think that would have been more interesting than what actually happened, but I can't fault them for not going that route.

EDIT:

It was a little confusing for me. I got the impression that some of his powers came from our sun and others came from our atmosphere. (I apologize in advance if that sounds stupid. )
Of course the Sun gave him powers, that's why Superman was still able to survive and fly in space where there is no "Earth's atmosphere".

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:36 PM   #491
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Both the sun and atmosphere gave him powers.

Just before his first flight, Superman says to Jor-el: Why am I so different from them?

Jor-el says: Earth's sun is younger and brighter than ours was. Your cells have drunk in its radiation, strengthening your muscles, your skin, your senses. Earth's gravity is weaker and its atmosphere is more nourishing. You've grown stronger here than I ever could've imagined. The only way to know how strong is to keep testing your limits. You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:37 PM   #492
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Man I already said peace! But still...
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The film does not show any of those things happening, in terms of government and media response. It does not even suggest them. It does not even suggest them.
The movie's failing. Goyer made grand proclamations about how the movie will deal with a story of first contact.

And even besides that, have you heard of ellipsis in story-telling? Do you think movies have 24 hour coverage of the story? That you are supposed to keep your brain in a disposable bag and ONLY see what the movie is showing you? Have you ever seen a challenging film or a European art film? If you only go by what is being shown on screen, you would not even begin to understand the film.

What I am stating are the things that are arising from the film's scenario and that it creates such logical problems means that the film's scenario is ill thought and ill conceived not that I am making stuff out of thin air.

"Not shown on the screen therefore it did not happen!" Seesh!
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You're trying to tie all this to Zod going to the Kent farm, without considering that even if it were discovered that Zod went there, that even if it were discovered he went there first, it could easily be explained away by ANY involved (Clark, Lois, Martha, the military, police, the people of Smallville, etc) as just one of Zod's "stops" on the way to downtown Smallville.
There was only ever one stop for them. One of the many? They ONLY landed at the Kent farm (to question people) and then Superman took the battle to town and there there reinforcements and rescue by the villains in the town.

And the police drove up there and saw Superman with Kent's mother. And then they even picked the spaceship from the Kent house to bomb the UFO with. So yeah, the Kent house was just a ordinary house and just an ordinary stop for the aliens.

But man, we are talking in circles. I already said peace and we can suspend this specific conversation. Like I said, we just fundamentally disagree about it.

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:54 PM   #493
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I hope they flesh out more of a story this time, many scenes screamed out for extra minutes.

It can all be explained in a brief 'media' montage, at the beginning - like a prologue - a recap of aliens amongst earth, the damage done, the eye whitness reports - how this alien is here, helping rebuild not only the city, but public confidence.

A voice over of a normal civilian could be saying how there must be more information out there, but are protecting this alien as he is here for the good of man kind, an almost second coming if you will - we see smallville residents watch the article and ponder the notion as if to say - secret is safe with me (smallvie cop, class mates etc) IT WILL NEVER NEED TO BE MENTIONED AGAIN - EVIL LAUGH

But then this type of revelation will anger Lex big time, that some people are covering for him.

The government will down play this is in a big way, as it will change the way we view religion, science, our own planet etc.

Wouldn't even be surprised if some come out and try and say it was a false flag, an elaborate hoax from one nation to another, using meta humans, project blue beam (look it up) this could interest Bruce.

Although MOS wasn't straight forward, in simple telling a story telling, it is not beyond repair

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Old 11-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #494
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

The bigger deal for me in regards to the logic of Superman's secret identity has nothing to do with the glasses issue (which I think is pretty easy to side step in a whole bunch of ways) and has everything to do with the question of how Clark Kent got a job as an investigative journalist for a huge city newspaper with nationwide circulation without either a degree in journalism or any kind of prior experience in the field.

As for the glasses thing, Superman's face wasn't broadcast clearly to the world and the only people who ever saw his face are either people who already know his secret or people who aren't likely to ever bump into Clark Kent. As long as he never sits down for a photo-op or a TV interview or really ever let himself be photographed or recorded clearly when he's Superman, the glasses work just fine for me.

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Old 11-23-2013, 04:14 PM   #495
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
Of course the Sun gave him powers, that's why Superman was still able to survive and fly in space where there is no "Earth's atmosphere".
Uh, yeah, I know that.

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Both the sun and atmosphere gave him powers.
Right. What I took from the film was that the sun and atmosphere gave him powers independently (is that grammatically correct?) of each other. The sun gave him some abilities and the atmosphere gave him others. If he had landed on a planet with a yellow sun, but a different atmosphere, he would have only possessed certain abilities (and vice versa).

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Just before his first flight, Superman says to Jor-el: Why am I so different from them?

Jor-el says: Earth's sun is younger and brighter than ours was. Your cells have drunk in its radiation, strengthening your muscles, your skin, your senses. Earth's gravity is weaker and its atmosphere is more nourishing. You've grown stronger here than I ever could've imagined. The only way to know how strong is to keep testing your limits. You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.
I would've just stuck with the red sun/yellow sun explanation.

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The bigger deal for me in regards to the logic of Superman's secret identity has nothing to do with the glasses issue (which I think is pretty easy to side step in a whole bunch of ways) and has everything to do with the question of how Clark Kent got a job as an investigative journalist for a huge city newspaper with nationwide circulation without either a degree in journalism or any kind of prior experience in the field.
This.


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Old 11-23-2013, 04:31 PM   #496
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

The red/yellow sun explanation was so much better.

Man, I really hate Goyer right now. **** Goyer.

And **** Goyer on the secret identity **** too. I jope they just treat it matter of factly in the next film and just begin with it as the status quo of Superman established (Clark at the Daily Planet, glasses, secret identity, Superman doing SUPER things, etc), I won't ask for an explanation. Just give us a damn Superman movie, please.

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Old 11-23-2013, 05:25 PM   #497
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Before I saw the film, I often wondered if Superman would just tell the government who he really is so he could win their trust. I think that would have been more interesting than what actually happened, but I can't fault them for not going that route.
I wouldn't trust them.

It was interesting for me to learn that in the New Frontier universe, they or at least the President, knew Superman and Clark are the same guy. Like he straighy up asks how the Kents are doing...

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4295030.html

And then there's his comment about JFK here...

http://badassdigest.com/2013/11/22/t...cret-identity/

"If I can't the President of the United States, who can I trust?"

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I was at some diplomatic party once. Got to talking to this princess who told me that when it came to Superman, I was missing the point. She told me, "His real strength lay in his generous spirit and sense of what's fair." - King Faraday

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Hes much more of a working class superhero, which is why we ended the whole book with the image of a laboring Superman. Hes Everyman operating on a scifi Paul Bunyan scale." - Grant Morrison

"Self Portrait" By Batman
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Old 11-23-2013, 05:40 PM   #498
MrsKent26
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I won't ask for an explanation. Just give us a damn Superman movie, please.
I think this might be the best way to play it. I don't hate Goyer as much as some, but sometimes he takes things too far and makes them needlessly complicated.

The Clark Kent persona is part of the Superman story. An important part. The fact is, and even Goyer knows this judging by MOS's ending, that it can't be removed from the story. It just can't. It's a part of every Supes story in some capacity. The same with his flying, Lois Lane, etc. He can give some explanation, but there's no need to explain everything. Maybe Smallville just keeps the secret out of fear/respect or something. The military wouldn't give the public any details about an alien invasion. The general public doesn't know anything. Most people haven't seen Supes close up.

And forget about facial recognition software and crap like that. No need to get into it. There have and always will be people that take issue with the Kent disguise. Coming up with some complicated explanation wouldn't solve these issues. Those people would just pick apart every explanation made because they can't accept it and never did. Whatever. Forget about them. They'll probably still see the movie for Batman or the action or whatever. So there's no need to make the Kent disguise appeal to them.

This is a movie with Superman in it. There are some core pieces of him that must remain. If Goyer doesn't want to make a Superman movie, then he shouldn't.

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Old 11-23-2013, 06:02 PM   #499
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Lencho01 View Post
I wouldn't trust them.
I never said it had to work.

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Old 11-23-2013, 06:15 PM   #500
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I never said it had to work.


Maybe they could've gone the way of Secret Identity where only one guy in the government knew who he was.

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I was at some diplomatic party once. Got to talking to this princess who told me that when it came to Superman, I was missing the point. She told me, "His real strength lay in his generous spirit and sense of what's fair." - King Faraday

"
Hes much more of a working class superhero, which is why we ended the whole book with the image of a laboring Superman. Hes Everyman operating on a scifi Paul Bunyan scale." - Grant Morrison

"Self Portrait" By Batman
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