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Old 11-28-2013, 05:16 PM   #876
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Degrees related to cinema, or Journalism, you know, the stuff that proves you have some experience, and are not just a random blogger or youtuber
Degrees or not, it all boils down to a matter of opinion. Why else would so many similarly educated film critic have such varying opinions on movies? Siskel and Ebert disagreed quite vehemently with each other constantly. Because like I said, all they are doing, bottom line, is expressing an opinion, and quite frankly, I find a lot of these educated critics with all these degrees rather pompous and arrogant, and think that their opinion is more important than anyone else's. Guess what? It ain't, I don't care how smart you think you are.

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:19 PM   #877
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I think most people agree that there needed to be something different than what we were given after Zod dies. I did like Supes exchange with the General but it following such a hard hitting scene as Zod's death and finishing the scene with the "I just think he's kind of hott" just does not flow. There are too many jumps and skips with the last 4 scenes with not enough context.
That time skip bugs me. The scenes don't mesh. I would have put a totally different scene after the Zod death. I would have shown Superman looking for survivors and pulling people out of the rubble. It could have shown Supes getting up close with people and how they respond to him. It could have been peoples' first meeting with Superman. I would have saved the Swanwick scene for the next movie and used this scene instead. Then cut to Clark/Martha and the DP.


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Yup. Personally I couldn't care less if someone hates a movie I like. They are, just like I am, entitled to an opinion. It's when they go all out to prove that I'm wrong for liking it that bothers me. Or when they call me a fanboy or some other similar insulting sobriquet because I dared to like something they didn't and had the audacity to say that I thought it was a good movie. (or book, or song, or game ...)
Indeed. If someone can just say they didn't like it, that's fine. But trying to be covert and use things to prove anyone who liked it is wrong, just irks me.


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Old 11-28-2013, 05:48 PM   #878
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The problem I have with that explanation is that I have a hard time believing that people would be able to move on from that kind of trauma in just a couple of months. I remember the first couple of years following 9/11, it took a lot of people in this country a very long time to movie on, and most of them didn't even directly experience it. The destruction in Man of Steel was much greater than what took place on 9/11 and all of the Daily Planet staff witnessed it directly and probably all knew at least a couple of people who died. The notion that they were able to move on, even after a few months, seems very implausible to me.
I can't really speak on the mechanics of it too much seeing as I have little experience with such things in my life, however the question as you have seemingly acknowledged isn't that of how long would it take everyone(in the world or the city), but rather that of everyone at the "daily planet"....
Fortunately, I'm not talking about either, rather that of how long would it take for these specific 4 people to be able to not sulk around all day. 4 people in that world, that very possibly may not have known anyone that died(I don't know everyone in my building, let alone school/office). How long before they can be shown in a brief scene showing some form of levity? I'd argue that it speaks to this lombards character and role in that office "the endearing jester he's always been" if you will.

I say this again pointing out that we didn't see everyone in that office building with birthday party hats on, but rather, "back at work". This best seen when clark is in the Lobby.

I for one say it's all very credible. As credible as RDJ making jokes the same day Coulson died, or Bruce Wayne's various in jokes to his peers in the midst of his films, themselves playing out over a few days if memory serves. It's a moment.

Again, the thing about this that is very different from 911 is that these people
A) Were not attacked by the hateful Osama but something maybe even comparable to a natural disaster. It still sucks but it's still different. Especially in North America.
B) In the wake of 911 American's weren't left with a living breathing angel man in a cape, and the saving of the world to celebrate...
If the entire city of NewYork had also survived a terrorist nuclear threat that day, I can imagine there might be one or two or 4 people celebrating a short time later. Especially if they believe they have a superhero in the clouds.

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Old 11-28-2013, 06:33 PM   #879
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I can't really speak on the mechanics of it too much seeing as I have little experience with such things in my life, however the question as you have seemingly acknowledged isn't that of how long would it take everyone(in the world or the city), but rather that of everyone at the "daily planet"....
Fortunately, I'm not talking about either, rather that of how long would it take for these specific 4 people to be able to not sulk around all day. 4 people in that world, that very possibly may not have known anyone that died(I don't know everyone in my building, let alone school/office). How long before they can be shown in a brief scene showing some form of levity? I'd argue that it speaks to this lombards character and role in that office "the endearing jester he's always been" if you will.

I say this again pointing out that we didn't see everyone in that office building with birthday party hats on, but rather, "back at work". This best seen when clark is in the Lobby.

I for one say it's all very credible. As credible as RDJ making jokes the same day Coulson died, or Bruce Wayne's various in jokes to his peers in the midst of his films, themselves playing out over a few days if memory serves. It's a moment.

Again, the thing about this that is very different from 911 is that these people
A) Were not attacked by the hateful Osama but something maybe even comparable to a natural disaster. It still sucks but it's still different. Especially in North America.
B) In the wake of 911 American's weren't left with a living breathing angel man in a cape, and the saving of the world to celebrate...
Avengers' problem was that Coulson wasn't anything big, nobody gave a **** about this guy and theyre all looking sad and traumatized. It was stupid.

With MOS, i doubt that's "months" after the fact. Probably days or weeks at the most. That building was probably screwed up, why would it not be when every other skyscraper nearby was destroyed? Even if it was standing, i dont know...it feels weird that they would be back working there doing normal ****. Laughing after a tragedy happens, that's fine. But it wasn't long after we saw these crazy scenes where everyones dying around this area. It's more of a pacing issue. Again i enjoy the ending scene on its own but im not sure if it works coming right off of all that.

It's the equivalent to 911 happening and there's a building right next to the scene that was untouched. And days later or a week, and guess what? All the workers are back to work like nothing happened.

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Old 11-28-2013, 06:41 PM   #880
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Even people who weren't 'over' 9/11 weren't sulking 24/7. They still tried to find opportunities to get back to normal life, going to basketball games, to find happiness, etc.

I really like the final scene. It feels hopeful. But I could see how people wouldn't like it.

What doesn't work for me is how they leave the climax with Zod's death, fading out on that minor chord.

I would have liked a bittersweet scene of Superman getting up and saving people from the rubble with footage/audio from a news/talk show edited in (perhaps featuring Lois or Woodburn?), establishing that:

1) the world is indeed going to get worse with the revelation of alien life (news of an announcement from LexCorp, various govts, etc about defense/weapon development), confirming that Jonathan was right (that Clark shouldn't have made himself known if it wasn't worth it), and also setting up that Superman has a long road of conflict ahead of him.

but also 2) that other people are embracing Superman because he was the only one who was able to save them from the bigger threats out in the universe, and that he gives them hope, etc. All playing over the main piano theme with some quiet drums before fading out.

Then the scene with the drone. (without the overly kinetic shot of the missle that makes you feel like you're about to watch yet another action scene).


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Old 11-28-2013, 07:07 PM   #881
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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With MOS, i doubt that's "months" after the fact. Probably days or weeks at the most. That building was probably screwed up, why would it not be when every other skyscraper nearby was destroyed? Even if it was standing, i dont know....
Are yo insinuating that they are in the same office building that went down? I'm not following.

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Old 11-28-2013, 07:51 PM   #882
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The problem I have with that explanation is that I have a hard time believing that people would be able to move on from that kind of trauma in just a couple of months. I remember the first couple of years following 9/11, it took a lot of people in this country a very long time to movie on, and most of them didn't even directly experience it. The destruction in Man of Steel was much greater than what took place on 9/11 and all of the Daily Planet staff witnessed it directly and probably all knew at least a couple of people who died. The notion that they were able to move on, even after a few months, seems very implausible to me.
This is so interesting to me because I was out of the country when 9/11 happened. I just remember being surprised by how many people had flags on their cars and persons. It was like people forgot or had to remind themselves they were Americans. Yet, everyone looked like they had moved on by the time I got back. No one was moping around or anything like that. F.Y.I. I came back a year after it happened.

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Old 11-28-2013, 10:18 PM   #883
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I don't see why it would be "weird" that people were carrying on with their lives after the disaster.

As has been pointed out, people didn't stop experiencing a range of emotions and experiences after 9/11. America didn't "shut down" or anything.

Sheesh.

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Old 11-28-2013, 10:56 PM   #884
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I don't see why it would be "weird" that people were carrying on with their lives after the disaster.

As has been pointed out, people didn't stop experiencing a range of emotions and experiences after 9/11. America didn't "shut down" or anything.

Sheesh.
I'm not sure if any of the people posting about 9/11 have any actual experience with victims of 9/11, or family members of 9/11, but I find some of the comments to be almost offensive.

September 11th had a huge impact. There is no doubt about it. But the people of in the cities didn't just stop working. It's an insult to every person who suffered through that day to suggest that the only plausible reaction to that event was for them to sit and mope and to never be happy, ever.

It's not a reasonable expectation. I wish people would stop acting as if the people in MOS should have been weepy and sad. That's just idiotic.

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Old 11-28-2013, 10:59 PM   #885
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Yup.

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Old 11-29-2013, 12:02 AM   #886
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I have no experience with 9/11 except the kind that involved an m16.

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Old 11-29-2013, 01:43 AM   #887
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I don't see why it would be "weird" that people were carrying on with their lives after the disaster.

As has been pointed out, people didn't stop experiencing a range of emotions and experiences after 9/11. America didn't "shut down" or anything.

Sheesh.
I remember how commonly people in authority were exhorting folks to go back to their lives and try to live them as normal as they could, because if they allowed this tragedy to overtake their lives "Then the Terrorists have won".

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Old 11-29-2013, 02:46 AM   #888
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Hey Super-fans ! For me, the whole lack of a secret identity worked. I loved that not only did Lois know that Clark is Superman right from the start (or rather that Superman is Clark) but she calls him "Clark ! Clark ! I know how to stop them."

First, this solves the central problem with the Lois Lane character. Investigative reporter fooled by glasses and suit. No, Snyder and co got it right.

Second, pretty much everyone in Smallville will know that Clark and Superman are the same guy, seeing as they all know he's the Kent boy who lifted the bus out of the river, and fought those two aliens on main-street. Pete Ross is probably hoping that next time Clark calls into the Ihop, he leaves a tip, and doesn't bring that girl with the black cape.

I think a very simple direction to go would be if pretty much everyone knows he's Superman, but nobody bugs him about it. It's amazing what people will ignore.
The old Elephant in the room. Given that Perry, Lombard and Jenny saw him reasonably up close, in the ruins of Metropolis, there's a good chance they'll figure it out.

Really, if you worked with a guy who was an alien with godlike might, other than maybe ask for an autograph and maybe a photo-op for your facebook page, you'd probably
leave him alone. Especially after seeing him snap the neck of another godlike alien (somebody must have got that one on their phone and put it on youtube....oh check it out, its on youtube already ! See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-WxtQnwSbE

mind you, he had it coming, he shot an old (unarmed ) lady, and was planning on wiping out the human race, what an ******* !

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but they should begin as they mean to continue. It worked for me. Peace out Super-fans !

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Old 11-29-2013, 08:17 AM   #889
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Yup. Personally I couldn't care less if someone hates a movie I like. They are, just like I am, entitled to an opinion. It's when they go all out to prove that I'm wrong for liking it that bothers me. Or when they call me a fanboy or some other similar insulting sobriquet because I dared to like something they didn't and had the audacity to say that I thought it was a good movie. (or book, or song, or game ...)
Well, if someone is impugning your basic/simple opinion (“I just liked/disliked the movie”) then that’s rude and inappropriate. It’s also pointless - like arguing over whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla.

But folks who post on forums are not just passionate; they’re (sometimes) articulate. Rarely will they just offer a /; they’ll say “I liked/disliked the movie… and here are the a, b and c reasons why.” But while the core opinion may be sacrosanct, the reasons presented are necessarily more tangible and - thus - more susceptible to legitimate scrutiny and debate.

Here’s a hypothetical example: Joe says Movie X sucked and he draws particular attention to the “glaring plot hole” in the third act. It could be the case, however, that the plot hole doesn’t exist - that some detail in the first act (which Joe seems to have missed) fully explains the apparent “problem.” In other words, Joe’s review is “wrong” - and it’s entirely reasonable to point out his mistake. Of course, Joe is still entitled to his opinion that Movie X sucks; and he may have 100 other (and better) reasons to back up his verdict. But the one he gave us first is the one that’s being discussed.

In my view, as long as the exchange is framed as a debate of the debatable details (and not an attack on personal opinion), it’s fair game.

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Old 11-29-2013, 08:44 AM   #890
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Second, pretty much everyone in Smallville will know that Clark and Superman are the same guy, seeing as they all know he's the Kent boy who lifted the bus out of the river...
1. Clark lifting the bus was a rumor. A few kids may have believed it and some may have convinced their parents of it. If my brother told me his friend saved their lives by swimming their crashed car up from the bottom of the ocean, I might believe him but then again I might just think he thinks that, where in truth I think there is probably another explanation.

The fact that clark is still bullied(against the fence) by kids indicates that they either
-don't know he can lifts buses over his head
-they don't believe it
-they were never told about it
But rather they just wanna bully the spazz of the town cause that's all they know of him. I'd argue only pete and jon are in on the truth at that point. Pete's mom as well.

Lastly, clark didn't expose himself to the town to save jon for a reason. The reason being "the town" didn't know.

2. This idea that this alien with powers must be the Kent kid due to the correlation of the only people on Earth with the power to lift a bus over their head are these two is going to fade pretty quickly when the DCU begins to get populated with other meta's.
Maybe Clark grew up to be the flash, maybe he's this other person with super strength, maybe this other kid with powers in the teen titans tells me that there's other people in this world with powers beyond the powers Clark was rumored to have. We need to stop viewing this as the theater audience and start seeing this through the eyes of small people living in a big world.

The one thing Smallville did was that it exposed the meta world early.

At the end of MOS, Clark went back to be with his mother. Would have been pretty gnarly if they walked by some towns folk. Maybe next time.

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Old 11-29-2013, 08:47 AM   #891
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

never mind

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Old 11-29-2013, 11:10 AM   #892
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Avengers' problem was that Coulson wasn't anything big, nobody gave a **** about this guy and theyre all looking sad and traumatized. It was stupid.

With MOS, i doubt that's "months" after the fact. Probably days or weeks at the most. That building was probably screwed up, why would it not be when every other skyscraper nearby was destroyed? Even if it was standing, i dont know...it feels weird that they would be back working there doing normal ****. Laughing after a tragedy happens, that's fine. But it wasn't long after we saw these crazy scenes where everyones dying around this area. It's more of a pacing issue. Again i enjoy the ending scene on its own but im not sure if it works coming right off of all that.

It's the equivalent to 911 happening and there's a building right next to the scene that was untouched. And days later or a week, and guess what? All the workers are back to work like nothing happened.
Regarding Coulson, I'm sorry, have YOU ever met someone with whom you are working, only to see them killed later that same day?
Also, Stark had a much more extended "working" relationship with him, not to mention everyone in SHIELD.
Tell me, who, in that room, should NOT have been distressed over his death, and why?

As for MOS, we know it was long enough after for Clark to get a job there. That usually doesn't happen over night, or even over 2 or 3 nights.

Is there anyone on this board who was working in NY after 9/11? There's got to be someone. I imagine they would have a much better perspective on the realism of this, as far as how soon people returned to work in buildings near ground zero, as well as how "normal" people were acting.
Also, different people, and different places, would all have different atmospheres in dealing with what happened.

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Old 11-29-2013, 11:20 AM   #893
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Regarding additional scenes after the climax, it would have been another LOTR: Return of the King. Hell, MOS was already being criticized for having two big climax style battles back to back.

That said, it certainly would have made sense to see him being involved in the rescue efforts, considering how beneficial he would have been to them, between his strength and x-ray vision.
The way the subsequent scene with General Swanwick and the drone seems to imply not much of a public presence between the climax and that scene.
This could just be simply it's proximity, happening shortly after, but it would seem the logical thing to do after stopping the threat would be to focus on rescue and recovery.

It's hard to imagine he would have just flown off after disposing of Zod, and his moment with Lois. However, as far as story telling/film making, it makes far more sense to let that moment resonate, and then continue with the denouement. Of course they could have simply shown a news clip about the on going rescue efforts, and the help Superman has been. Then again, there's the issue of people welcoming his help after what happened. It makes sense that there would be, at least SOME people, resenting him after everything.

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Old 11-29-2013, 11:30 AM   #894
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Safe to assume, the daily planet had a few openings and an employment drive.

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Old 11-29-2013, 12:06 PM   #895
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Regarding additional scenes after the climax, it would have been another LOTR: Return of the King. Hell, MOS was already being criticized for having two big climax style battles back to back.

That said, it certainly would have made sense to see him being involved in the rescue efforts, considering how beneficial he would have been to them, between his strength and x-ray vision.
The way the subsequent scene with General Swanwick and the drone seems to imply not much of a public presence between the climax and that scene.
This could just be simply it's proximity, happening shortly after, but it would seem the logical thing to do after stopping the threat would be to focus on rescue and recovery.

It's hard to imagine he would have just flown off after disposing of Zod, and his moment with Lois. However, as far as story telling/film making, it makes far more sense to let that moment resonate, and then continue with the denouement. Of course they could have simply shown a news clip about the on going rescue efforts, and the help Superman has been. Then again, there's the issue of people welcoming his help after what happened. It makes sense that there would be, at least SOME people, resenting him after everything.
The Coulson thing didn't work in the avengers, too heavy-handed.

The characters involved were veterans with the subject of death. They had mostly never cared about death until Coulson died, total BS.

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Old 11-29-2013, 12:34 PM   #896
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

That was my reaction. When I saw them moping around, my first thought was, "Why do any of you care?" It's one thing to be upset over someone dying, that's expected, but it seemed like each and every one of them took it personally.

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Old 11-29-2013, 01:16 PM   #897
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The Coulson thing didn't work in the avengers, too heavy-handed.

The characters involved were veterans with the subject of death. They had mostly never cared about death until Coulson died, total BS.

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Old 11-29-2013, 01:23 PM   #898
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Are you one of those people who is shocked whenever somebody tells them that they don't think that The Avengers is one of the greatest pieces of art ever made?

Well, let me tell you, The Avengers is not one of the greatest pieces of art ever made.

It's not even Joss Whedon's greatest work.

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Old 11-29-2013, 02:45 PM   #899
gdw
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
Are you one of those people who is shocked whenever somebody tells them that they don't think that The Avengers is one of the greatest pieces of art ever made?

Well, let me tell you, The Avengers is not one of the greatest pieces of art ever made.

It's not even Joss Whedon's greatest work.
Not at all. I agree it is not his greatest work.

That's not at all what I was suggesting. I was saying that your comment;

"The Coulson thing didn't work in the avengers, too heavy-handed.

The characters involved were veterans with the subject of death. They had mostly never cared about death until Coulson died, total BS."

Makes no sense. It was no where near heavy handed, but that's besides the point.
How exactly were all of them "veterans with death?" Yes, they've all been around death, but that doesn't mean they aren't effected by it. This was a person they were all familiar with, to varying degrees, and it was an attack close to home. They were all just through a huge event, AND already had other emotions running high. They were previously at each-others throats.

Find me a group of people (who are not complete psychopaths) who survive an attack and then find out that someone they were "close" to (closer than "just another soldier,") that doesn't react with a comparable gravitas. Obviously not everyone handles emotions the same, but the emotions you're already trying to handle, you'd already be shook up, and then find out someone died in an attack that you didn't see coming because you were all to busy *****ing at each other, well, damn straight it'd be "heavy."

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Old 11-29-2013, 03:01 PM   #900
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I'm not sure if any of the people posting about 9/11 have any actual experience with victims of 9/11, or family members of 9/11, but I find some of the comments to be almost offensive.

September 11th had a huge impact. There is no doubt about it. But the people of in the cities didn't just stop working. It's an insult to every person who suffered through that day to suggest that the only plausible reaction to that event was for them to sit and mope and to never be happy, ever.

It's not a reasonable expectation. I wish people would stop acting as if the people in MOS should have been weepy and sad. That's just idiotic.
No what's "idiotic" is not stating how much time had passed prior to the last few scenes after Superman broke Zods neck. A text on screen stating 1 year later would have been grand or something of the likes. Then again I am not surprised as a majority of this film was poorly though out and executed.

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