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Old 11-30-2013, 12:45 PM   #751
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Dude, no offense, but I feel like you have a huge misconception of what Wonder Woman is supposed to be like.

She isn't a character that's there to be someone else's trophy prize, ala "token love interest of the week". To do that would be to go against what the character was created and stands for. She wouldn't be Wonder Woman any more in a sense.
To each his own, man.

Even the trades reported the rumor that Diana could be Bruce's arm candy for the BvS film. My statement was referring to that.


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Plus, are you seriously using the Donner films and SR as a basis for why MOS, a film that has NOTHING to do with those previous films, Clark and Lois will not work out in this franchise? Seriously?

You must have missed Snyder repeatedly saying that they weren't really taking anything from the previous films into account and went into making this film as if there had been no superman films before it.

And really, prior to the New 52, Lois and Clark were happily married for like over a decade, and were each other's primary love interests for most of their canon history before that.

Honestly, you have YET to provide one GOOD reason that isn't SHALLOW or demeaning towards woman, on why Superman and Wonder Woman should be together.
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What the heck are you on about inconsistent? They were each others main love interest till the reboot and will be again. They were married since the mid 90's in the main continuity and before that engaged.
And they may not take that canon into account either. My point was that they're doing their own thing. There isn't a specific pattern they are required to conform to. So far, they went a very non-traditional route with Lois and Superman in MoS. I really doubt they'll suddenly go back to how it was done in the 90s comics.

There was enough division at DC over the marriage to begin with.There were a lot of poor decisions made by DC in the 90s. I'm glad they finally got rid of it. The interviews with Didio, Lee and Morrison regarding the reasons why they disliked the marriage are quite interesting.


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No, it really doesn't, but some people love their knee jerk reactions. WW and SM as a couple doesn't AUTOMATICALLY demean her character anymore than Black Canary/Green Arrow being a couple demeans their characters, or Ant Man/Wasp, or Luke Cage/Jessica Jones, etc. It's all a matter of the writing, simple as that. Saying that something can NEVER work says more about the fan than the writer.
Brilliant.

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Old 11-30-2013, 12:48 PM   #752
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Interesting couple of Tweets from elmayimbe:-

And...

Both references to a certain Superman villain, whose name begins with D, ending in 'Day'....


Looks like this film IS a MOS sequel after all...

Doomsday seems a bit redundant.

Zod and Superman already destroyed most of Metropolis once. Why destroy the city again?

It does seem like a villain that Snyder would enjoy using though for the sake of fight scenes.

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Old 11-30-2013, 12:48 PM   #753
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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They could always change him to suit their needs, which I wouldn't have much of a problem with, but if you're going to turn him into something he's not, why not just create an original character?
And how much complaining do you think there would be if they went with an original character as the main villain for Superman? Personally I think in that case adapting Doomsday into something more three dimensional than a plot device would be preferable to some nobody they just made up themselves.

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Old 11-30-2013, 12:51 PM   #754
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

@ The VAleyard- Yeah they could end it with Supes/Lois getting married as we haven't seen that on the big screen. I'm bored with you change the frikin tune.

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Old 11-30-2013, 12:56 PM   #755
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@ The VAleyard- Yeah they could end it with Supes/Lois getting married as we haven't seen that on the big screen. I'm bored with you change the frikin tune.
They've done it in two live action mediums already. I don't think they're going with such a predictable, traditional route.

Plus in MoS world where it's world history that Lois Lane was the one who knew who Superman was originally, it would seem really suspicious if she's legally married to the guy who looks exactly like him. Worked in the comics, would be really awkward in a live action film.

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Old 11-30-2013, 12:58 PM   #756
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

Regardless of what villain/threat they use for Superman in Superman/Batman I imagine there will be some form of destruction anyway. Maybe not to the extent of the fight between Zod and his invasion force, but probably substantial in its own way. I think some people just have to get over that concept.

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Old 11-30-2013, 12:59 PM   #757
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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They've done it in two live action mediums already. I don't think they're going with such a predictable, traditional route.

Plus in MoS world where it's world history that Lois Lane was the one who knew who Superman was originally, it would seem really suspicious if she's legally married to the guy who looks exactly like him. Worked in the comics, would be really awkward in a live action film.

I'll take next week's lottery numbers from you as well. Could do with it for christmas.

Last of it from me on this. Ta-ra.


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Old 11-30-2013, 01:11 PM   #758
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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They've done it in two live action mediums already. I don't think they're going with such a predictable, traditional route.
Funnily enough I was thinking to myself "what's the second one?" and after a while I remembered "Oh yeah. Smallville". Wonder why that was the one I forgot. lol

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Plus in MoS world where it's world history that Lois Lane was the one who knew who Superman was originally, it would seem really suspicious if she's legally married to the guy who looks exactly like him. Worked in the comics, would be really awkward in a live action film.
Personally I think the bigger sell having Perry and co. not think Clark and Superman look awfully alike. If that can be accepted then I can't see anyone batting an eyelid at Lois and Clark being married or even just a couple (which is likely where they're headed at least considering MoS).

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:15 PM   #759
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Why would you use the character who is most famous for killing Superman if you aren't going to have him kill Superman?

I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, but this is Doomsday. He isn't so much a character as he is a plot device. The only thing he's ever done is kill Superman. That's his claim to fame. That's all he's good for. So if he isn't going to kill Superman, why use him?

The difference between them and Doomsday is that they are three dimensional characters. Doomsday is not. He is a mindless killing machine. He doesn't think, he barely speaks, and he isn't compelling.

They could always change him to suit their needs, which I wouldn't have much of a problem with, but if you're going to turn him into something he's not, why not just create an original character?

Thanks I was thinking of a reply and this sums ist up. Doomsday is a brute the thing he's famous is for is killing Supes. He's not a three dimensional character and it would be a waste if he's in the film and him not fighting and killing Superman.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:23 PM   #760
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

What if Snyder subverted the 'Death of Superman' and it was more a breaking of Superman's spirit rather than an actual death?

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:25 PM   #761
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

Yeah, I think they should save Doomsday for a third film or a Justice League film (perhaps where Darkseid unleashes him as a weapon or something). Like Bane, Doomsday is a bit of a "final boss" when it comes to Superman.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:26 PM   #762
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Personally I think the bigger sell having Perry and co. not think Clark and Superman look awfully alike. If that can be accepted then I can't see anyone batting an eyelid at Lois and Clark being married or even just a couple (which is likely where they're headed at least considering MoS).
I think the sequel will have Superman and Lois as an established couple, with them having got together prior to the events of the film. That way the relationship development won't take up focus.

Clark however? It would be suspicious for Lois to be in an open relationship with Clark when everyone knows about her connection to Superman.

It would undermine the whole point of the CK disguise.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:31 PM   #763
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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I think the sequel will have Superman and Lois as an established couple, with them having got together prior to the events of the film. That way the relationship development won't take up focus.

Clark however? It would be suspicious for Lois to be in an open relationship with Clark when everyone knows about her connection to Superman.

It would undermine the whole point of the CK disguise.
Eh it needs focus you can't just shove it away to the corner and hope everything works out. Clark and Lois at the Daily planet investigating working as reporters and a fairly big chunk of the movie as well needs to be shown.

As for the disguise and Lois relationship with Clark or Superman it's worked before and has been shown to work unless your new to the fandom and have no clue.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:34 PM   #764
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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What if Snyder subverted the 'Death of Superman' and it was more a breaking of Superman's spirit rather than an actual death?
Except where's the development of Superman's spirit? If MOS and the sequel didn't build up his spirit, then what exactly are you breaking?

That being said, it clearly shows that we have a long way before Doomsday can be introduced on-screen.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:35 PM   #765
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

Agreed with Fallen Angel. The relationship does need some focus. Especially on the back of MoS where many people felt that there wasn't enough focus or time spent developing the relationship. I personally would also like to see some character moments between them as a couple.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:35 PM   #766
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Eh it needs focus you can't just shove it away to the corner and hope everything works out. Clark and Lois at the Daily planet investigating working as reporters and a fairly big chunk of the movie as well needs to be shown.
I'd agree if this was a standalone Superman film, but the Batman presence throws it all into question.


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As for the disguise and Lois relationship with Clark or Superman it's worked before and has been shown to work unless your new to the fandom and have no clue.

When did it work before?

I'd laugh if you mentioned "Lois and Clark" the campy, cheesy TV series as proof of it being done. The one where Cain played Clark and Superman exactly the same.

That show really shouldn't be the basis for anything logical.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:42 PM   #767
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Except where's the development of Superman's spirit? If MOS and the sequel didn't build up his spirit, then what exactly are you breaking?

That being said, it clearly shows that we have a long way before Doomsday can be introduced on-screen.
Not entirely sure what you mean by your first line. I don't think I ever implied that MoS didn't build up his spirit. Also the sequel hasn't been filmed yet and it's impossible to say what Superman's development in the movie is. Plus from what I took of the conversation some of the speculation was what if they were to use Doomsday for this movie.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:50 PM   #768
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Not entirely sure what you mean by your first line. I don't think I ever implied that MoS didn't build up his spirit. Also the sequel hasn't been filmed yet and it's impossible to say what Superman's development in the movie is. Plus from what I took of the conversation some of the speculation was what if they were to use Doomsday for this movie.
What I meant was, if you are going to subvert the Death of Superman storyline into breaking Superman's spirit, that presupposes that Superman had spirit to begin with. And I'm not sure that it's made evident in MOS. That being said, he needs a film to develop his spirit (via doing acts of providence in Metropolis, getting the Metropolis/world to trust him), before breaking it. Doomsday would be a perfect threequel villain in that case.

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:58 PM   #769
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So I bought a deathstroke action figure today and really want either him or Deadshot for the batman villian

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Old 11-30-2013, 01:58 PM   #770
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Not sure that's made evident? I'm pretty sure that's mostly the point of MoS. He's on his journey to become Superman. He doesn't know who or what he is until he finds out where he came from and what he's meant to do. Even with his anguish at killing Zod it's clear by the end he's found the path he's meant to be on. That seems pretty evident to me.

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So I bought a deathstroke action figure today and really want either him or Deadshot for the batman villian
I would probably go with Deathstroke over Deadshot myself. I feel he's more comparable to Batman. Would be an interesting challenge imo.

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Old 11-30-2013, 02:04 PM   #771
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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What if Snyder subverted the 'Death of Superman' and it was more a breaking of Superman's spirit rather than an actual death?
This is probably the only way I'd want to see the death story adapted. I don't think it could work on film without significant changes.

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Old 11-30-2013, 02:15 PM   #772
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Why would you use the character who is most famous for killing Superman if you aren't going to have him kill Superman?

I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, but this is Doomsday. He isn't so much a character as he is a plot device. The only thing he's ever done is kill Superman. That's his claim to fame. That's all he's good for. So if he isn't going to kill Superman, why use him?

The difference between them and Doomsday is that they are three dimensional characters. Doomsday is not. He is a mindless killing machine. He doesn't think, he barely speaks, and he isn't compelling.

They could always change him to suit their needs, which I wouldn't have much of a problem with, but if you're going to turn him into something he's not, why not just create an original character?
OK you have a point in the fact that he's one-dimensional. I dont think Snyder/Goyer will suddenly make him more of a character but i dont see why it has to follow canon. Why not do a swerve? Make most of us think he's going to kill Superman and then not do it? That's fresh. Or have him kill Superman (we think he's dead for a period of time whether that be in the movie or until the next) and then Superman comes back. There's no reason why you cant use the canon, use the idea, deal with it somewhat and then turn it on its head for this different medium.

There is NO reason why they cant pull it off.

But if they want to kill him off until the next film, then it's probably best that they leave Doomsday and that concept for several years from now. When they're doing a final Superman movie with Cavill.

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Old 11-30-2013, 02:16 PM   #773
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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So I bought a deathstroke action figure today and really want either him or Deadshot for the batman villian
Deadshot is boring. Go with Deathstroke.

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Old 11-30-2013, 02:20 PM   #774
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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OK you have a point in the fact that he's one-dimensional. I dont think Snyder/Goyer will suddenly make him more of a character but i dont see why it has to follow canon. Why not do a swerve? Make most of us think he's going to kill Superman and then not do it? That's fresh. Or have him kill Superman (we think he's dead for a period of time whether that be in the movie or until the next) and then Superman comes back. There's no reason why you cant use the canon, use the idea, deal with it somewhat and then turn it on its head for this different medium.

There is NO reason why they cant pull it off.

But if they want to kill him off until the next film, then it's probably best that they leave Doomsday and that concept for several years from now. When they're doing a final Superman movie with Cavill.

Exactly Doomsday kills Superman and then you can do a variation of the Return ofSuperman maybe a little of Reign as well you can't fully adapt the storyline just the main points.

If it's true though I still don't believe it.

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Old 11-30-2013, 02:34 PM   #775
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I wonder if they'll ever get around to explaining the Kryptonian explorer craft and the empty hibernation pod? The prequel comic suggested it was Kara.

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