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Old 12-01-2013, 02:34 AM   #26
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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Originally Posted by XtremelyBaneful View Post
I disagree. First of all, like I said before, is this not the premise of the riddler's agenda?

Second of all, the first film made it more believable, with Bruce returning, and first being the playboy and then later dismissing Batman as something to be respected. The third film made it silly with both him and the Batman figure being in the shadows for 8 years.
The Riddler's agenda? I wouldn't say the sole motive of the Riddler was finding out who Batman was.

And the first film doesn't make it believable when you really look at it. Yeah, Bruce dismissed Batman in public, just like anyone else would. People publicly denounce actions that they're later found out to have committed all the time. It's what people do.

But again, it's not meant to be scrutinized...because, yeah, it is a little silly. When you really look at what Batman does, it's silly. He wouldn't last a week. But we suspend our disbelief because it's not supposed to be entirely realistic.

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Old 12-01-2013, 07:27 AM   #27
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

Stuff like this are the reason TDKR is probably my 3rd favourite movie in the franchise. It just has more weak moments than BB and TDK. I did find it a little silly that people didnt get onto the fact that Bruce Wayne and Batman returned to the pubic eye within a day of each other.

Other little things like this in the movie effect it as well. I still love all 3 movies, but TDKR is my least favourite. I really do think the last 5 mins of TDKR does a lot to save the movie.

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Old 12-01-2013, 08:39 AM   #28
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

Bro come on. You are right that this is stupid. But in all of Batman's universe. Everybody would make associations with Bruce. But in Rises , "they" didnt go to hiding at the same time. Bruce left Batman's persona 8 years ago , he didn't became recluse the same night . 5 years have gone by.



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Miranda Tate: You have a practiced apathy, Mr. Wayne. But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it. And isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding. Have a good evening, Mr. Wayne.
[Miranda turns and walks off, and Bruce approaches Selina]




Miranda Tate: No fossil fuels. Free, clean energy for an entire city. Three years ago, a Russian scientist published a paper on weaponized fusion reactions. One week later your reactor started developing problems. I think this machine works.
Bruce Wayne: Miranda, if it were operational, the danger to Gotham would be too great.
Miranda Tate: Would it make you feel better to know that the Russian scientist died in a plane crash six months ago?
Bruce Wayne: Someone will work out what Dr. Pavel did. Someone will figure out a way to make this power source into a nuclear weapon. I need you to take control of Wayne Enterprises and this reactor.

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Old 12-01-2013, 11:18 AM   #29
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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I think there's enough wiggle room there to say that the last time Bruce suited up as Batman before Bane was not the night of Dent's death. The process of the Dent Act being implemented and Blackgate being built would not have happened overnight and I could easily see Bruce going out there in a highly clandestine fashion in that interim. Blake's line about "Harvey Dent Day" being the last confirmed appearance of Batman eight years prior can support this. I also just really love the idea of Bruce watching Batman become obsolete with the heightening of the police's crackdown on crime while at the same time focusing more and more on philanthropy as 'Bruce Wayne'. It's a reinvention of both of his duel personas and the temporary failure of them.
I keep going back to Jett from Batman On Film, who said in one of his brief encounters with Nolan...said something that suggested Batmans appearances after TDK. On the low-down so to speak.

Also "last confirmed sighting" was put into the script for a reason. The last CONFIRMED sighting. There can unconfirmed sightings, people who wont say anything to people about what they saw. Meaning people of authority. He's a ninja, he can get away with not being seen. All he has to do is stay away from flashy vehicles, which would be easy considering the batmobile was destroyed, the Bat wasn't invented yet. So he can stay away from the Bat-Pod or maybe he patrolled the streets in a less flashy batmobile without insane designs or goddamn fire blasting out the back.

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Old 12-01-2013, 12:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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Originally Posted by Victarion View Post
Miranda Tate's dialogue when Bruce showed her the reactor.
Wat exactly does she say to him?

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Originally Posted by Scar Predator View Post
For the sake of argument, I ask people to imagine that such a vigilante started showing up on the news. Then I ask who they would assume was under the mask? People would think: ex-soldier, ex-cop, former bounty hunter, ex-private investigator, ex-bouncer, etc. It wouldn't be the money that people would suspect, it would be the personality. Even if a billionaire was in shape, the Donald Trump/Steve Jobs types just wouldn't register.
good post
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Bro come on. You are right that this is stupid. But in all of Batman's universe. Everybody would make associations with Bruce. But in Rises , "they" didnt go to hiding at the same time. Bruce left Batman's persona 8 years ago , he didn't became recluse the same night . 5 years have gone by.
I took that dialogue as Miranda sleekly revealing that she knew he was batman
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The Riddler's agenda? I wouldn't say the sole motive of the Riddler was finding out who Batman was.

And the first film doesn't make it believable when you really look at it. Yeah, Bruce dismissed Batman in public, just like anyone else would. People publicly denounce actions that they're later found out to have committed all the time. It's what people do.

But again, it's not meant to be scrutinized...because, yeah, it is a little silly. When you really look at what Batman does, it's silly. He wouldn't last a week. But we suspend our disbelief because it's not supposed to be entirely realistic.
obviously that is not the only thing the riddler is after but is not part of his character arc supposed to be obsessed with finding out who the batman is?

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Old 12-01-2013, 12:50 PM   #31
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

Not all the time, no.

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Old 12-01-2013, 06:53 PM   #32
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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Bro come on. You are right that this is stupid. But in all of Batman's universe. Everybody would make associations with Bruce. But in Rises , "they" didnt go to hiding at the same time. Bruce left Batman's persona 8 years ago , he didn't became recluse the same night . 5 years have gone by.
But for them to come back within a day of each other after years of not being seen and no one making the connection, especially detectives, was too silly for me. I love the movies and in the previous two they showed compelling reasons as to why Bruce wouldnt be suspected, but this particular thing was major to me. It doesnt ruin TDKR, but there are a few too many little poor choices like this which bring it down IMO.

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Old 12-01-2013, 07:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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Wat exactly does she say to him?


good post

I took that dialogue as Miranda sleekly revealing that she knew he was batman


obviously that is not the only thing the riddler is after but is not part of his character arc supposed to be obsessed with finding out who the batman is?
See Tequilla's post. She said that Bruce went into hiding after the reactor failed. So Batman dwindles to a no show while Bruce spends time developing the reactor and donating proceeds from Wayne Enterprises to St Swithins.

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Old 12-01-2013, 07:43 PM   #34
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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For the sake of argument, I ask people to imagine that such a vigilante started showing up on the news. Then I ask who they would assume was under the mask? People would think: ex-soldier, ex-cop, former bounty hunter, ex-private investigator, ex-bouncer, etc. It wouldn't be the money that people would suspect, it would be the personality. Even if a billionaire was in shape, the Donald Trump/Steve Jobs types just wouldn't register.
Exactly. Well said.

This is the analogy that I often use:
Bruce Wayne is essentially Charlie Sheen minus the drugs/violence if he inherited a large corporation. Suppose a vigilante that beats criminals to a pulp shows up in the streets of LA tomorrow and does this on a nightly basis. I walk up to you and tell you that this person is Charlie Sheen. What is your immediate reaction?

The laughter you just had is the exact laughter the average Joe in Gotham has if you walk up to him and tell him Bruce Wayne is Batman.

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Old 12-01-2013, 07:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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Exactly. Well said.

This is the analogy that I often use:
Bruce Wayne is essentially Charlie Sheen minus the drugs/violence if he inherited a large corporation. Suppose a vigilante that beats criminals to a pulp shows up in the streets of LA tomorrow and does this on a nightly basis. I walk up to you and tell you that this person is Charlie Sheen. What is your immediate reaction?

The laughter you just had is the exact laughter the average Joe in Gotham has if you walk up to him and tell him Bruce Wayne is Batman.
I would think along those lines, until said vigilante started busting out a ridiculously advanced tank/car that could jump over buildings, or a his own friggin jet. At which point I would probably start to strongly consider the billionaire who disappeared for eight years, and whose parents were killed when he was a kid. If I didn't think it were him, I would at least think he was funding the guy who was the vigilante.

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Old 12-01-2013, 07:51 PM   #36
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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obviously that is not the only thing the riddler is after but is not part of his character arc supposed to be obsessed with finding out who the batman is?
Not really. He was obsessed with coming up with a Riddle that Batman couldn't solve, but finding out Batman's identity has never been a huge part of his character.

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Old 12-01-2013, 08:19 PM   #37
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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But for them to come back within a day of each other after years of not being seen and no one making the connection, especially detectives, was too silly for me. I love the movies and in the previous two they showed compelling reasons as to why Bruce wouldnt be suspected, but this particular thing was major to me. It doesnt ruin TDKR, but there are a few too many little poor choices like this which bring it down IMO.
good post, although i don't know what you mean with the "far too many poor little choices"

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Not really. He was obsessed with coming up with a Riddle that Batman couldn't solve, but finding out Batman's identity has never been a huge part of his character.
fine, I digress, but even then, having the batgap and the back2back return would have been great for a riddler story

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Old 12-01-2013, 08:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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I would think along those lines, until said vigilante started busting out a ridiculously advanced tank/car that could jump over buildings, or a his own friggin jet. At which point I would probably start to strongly consider the billionaire who disappeared for eight years, and whose parents were killed when he was a kid. If I didn't think it were him, I would at least think he was funding the guy who was the vigilante.
His parents being killed when he was a kid is what people associate with the playboy persona. They think he is acting that way due to the childhood trauma and lack of parents in his life. They already assume he's coping with that through being a playboy, which is why they don't assume he is also coping with that through being a brooding vigilante at night.

Furthermore, as I stated before - yes, you would suspect Bruce Wayne at one point. Then you would investigate him, find no solid evidence on him, and you would move on to the next guy you suspect.

On top of even that, the average Gotham citizen thought Batman wasn't even human for the first year or two of Batman's career. By the time Batman would be publicly revealed to be just a man in a batsuit, "Bruce Wayne just returned to Gotham after all these years" would be a complete afterthought.

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Old 12-01-2013, 08:42 PM   #39
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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On top of even that, the average Gotham citizen thought Batman wasn't even human for the first year or two of Batman's career.
I never got that impression from when Gotham did talk about Batman. Like in Batman Begins, the hotel scene with Bruce, Earle and the other rich snobs, they referred to Batman as a he not an it.

"He's gone something the Police have never done"

"A guy who dresses up as a bat clearly has issues"

"He's put Falcone behind bars"

"Now the Police want to bring him in"

Then there's the dinner scene with Dent, Rachel and the Russian ballerina:

"Gotham City is proud of an ordinary citizen standing up for what's right"

"Gotham needs heroes like you, not a man who thinks he's above the law"

Etc etc. They obviously knew he was a guy in a costume.

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Old 12-01-2013, 09:26 PM   #40
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fine, I digress, but even then, having the batgap and the back2back return would have been great for a riddler story
Sure. But not coming after the Joker and Coleman Reese. The things they did especially with Heath's Joker would have been too similar. Playing mind games, leaving clues at crime scenes, a thin guy who wears green and purple as opposed to purple and green. Purely psychological. Get my drift? Nolan didn't want to repeat too many things from TDK. Maybe as a story it could work now if a writer released something to fill in the blanks, but not as a film out in the general public as the successor to Dark Knight.

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Old 12-01-2013, 09:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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I never got that impression from when Gotham did talk about Batman. Like in Batman Begins, the hotel scene with Bruce, Earle and the other rich snobs, they referred to Batman as a he not an it.

"He's gone something the Police have never done"

"A guy who dresses up as a bat clearly has issues"

"He's put Falcone behind bars"

"Now the Police want to bring him in"

Then there's the dinner scene with Dent, Rachel and the Russian ballerina:

"Gotham City is proud of an ordinary citizen standing up for what's right"

"Gotham needs heroes like you, not a man who thinks he's above the law"

Etc etc. They obviously knew he was a guy in a costume.
I'm talking about comic book Batman; not Nolan's Batman. There isn't even a Batman to suspect in first place after the first year in the Nolanverse .

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Old 12-01-2013, 11:20 PM   #42
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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Sure. But not coming after the Joker and Coleman Reese. The things they did especially with Heath's Joker would have been too similar. Playing mind games, leaving clues at crime scenes, a thin guy who wears green and purple as opposed to purple and green. Purely psychological. Get my drift? Nolan didn't want to repeat too many things from TDK. Maybe as a story it could work now if a writer released something to fill in the blanks, but not as a film out in the general public as the successor to Dark Knight.
I should have also said that I think that (if the plot contained the riddler) the riddler should have been the second villain, like scarecrow was in BB and 2face was in TDK, and bane should have continued as the main antagonist. INSTEAD of this huge focus on LoS. because otherwise you're right, things would have come off too similar to the joker... but as it is, I feel DKR is far too similar to BB. not only because of all the focus of LoS, but because it feels like the same exact plot twice, but that's another whole convo

edit: I DID say in the OP that riddler should have been the secondary villain, I guess I should have reiterated in every post that I mentioned the explanation

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On top of even that, the average Gotham citizen thought Batman wasn't even human for the first year or two of Batman's career. By the time Batman would be publicly revealed to be just a man in a batsuit, "Bruce Wayne just returned to Gotham after all these years" would be a complete afterthought.
what with nolan's trilogy supposed to be "grounded in reality" i really don't see how batman not being human would be a question to the people of gotham.

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Old 12-01-2013, 11:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

I think TDK series did a good enough job to show how Bruce's public persona was very different to how anyone would picture who Batman is.

Bruce in the past Batman movies sort of was shown as an overall do gooder in his role as Bruce Wayne the philanthropist, this Bruce is someone who is supposed to come off as a spoiled, conceited and not a particular deep or committed cause individual.

Of course there are some things you have to take with a grain of salt but it is a comic book movie after-all?

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Old 12-01-2013, 11:41 PM   #44
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I'm talking about comic book Batman; not Nolan's Batman.
Oh sorry my bad lol.

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There isn't even a Batman to suspect in first place after the first year in the Nolanverse .
Ugh don't remind me!

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Old 12-03-2013, 04:39 PM   #45
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I should have also said that I think that (if the plot contained the riddler) the riddler should have been the second villain, like scarecrow was in BB and 2face was in TDK, and bane should have continued as the main antagonist. INSTEAD of this huge focus on LoS. because otherwise you're right, things would have come off too similar to the joker... but as it is, I feel DKR is far too similar to BB. not only because of all the focus of LoS, but because it feels like the same exact plot twice, but that's another whole convo

edit: I DID say in the OP that riddler should have been the secondary villain, I guess I should have reiterated in every post that I mentioned the explanation
Nope, that's my fault for not reading it properly.

The reason why it feels similar to Begins is because it's the final piece of the story. And naturally you close things up by bringing themes full circle back to how it started. There was always a bit of a loose end anyway after Begins. The question of "what happened to Ras' wife?" and "Where is Talia? Is she in this universe? They mention her in the BB novelization.."

Bane, in the comics, is tied to Ras & Talia so it felt natural to return to the League of Shadows.

But yes, it's an interesting idea to think of Rises without the League. Just Bane. But Catwoman was absolutely necessary. She's essential to any Batman story, especially one that is complete. There needed to also be a new female presence after Rachel's death so Selina was a nice/logical touch.

So Bane, Catwoman and Riddler would have felt too cluttered.

Just Riddler and Catwoman wouldn't have worked for all the reasons i mentioned in my previous posts. And finally, just Bane with Catwoman and no League would have been cool but feeling like just another episode instead of the final chapter that wrap things in a bow by bringing it all back to how Bruce started. Which like it or not, was the involvement of Ducard/Al Ghul.

I do love the idea of Riddler as a secondary character though, without too much screentime but with plenty of importance to the plot and how we see Batman using his detective skills. Maybe that's a movie that could have been told after TDK but before TDKR. Placing Nygma as this supporting villain instead of lead antagonist lessens the "Joker similarities".

Black Mask with Riddler? Penguin with Riddler? Hugo Strange with Riddler?

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Old 12-03-2013, 06:40 PM   #46
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

I didn't get the feeling that TDKR had the same LOS plot as BB. Instead of just rehashing that one, the LOS connection let Nolan set up parallels between Bruce and Bane. A tl;dr of what I've said ad nauseum in the TDKR forums is: Here's Bane, the thing Bruce could have become if he had fully embraced League philosophy. Here's Talia, the person Bruce could have become if he had obsessed over his parents' death.

Plus the class warfare/social revolution aspect felt different from the fear gas stuff and the long "white night" in TDK. If you felt a focus on the League overshadowed Bane, then I'd recommend you watch the movie again.

I should add that I wasn't big on a return by the LOS either back in 08-11.

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Old 12-03-2013, 06:49 PM   #47
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

Right. I wanted it to be about Bane and Catwoman, but when i saw the film and tie-ins to Begins with all the parallels to Bruce i was won over completely.

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Old 12-03-2013, 07:17 PM   #48
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The league aspects won me over when I saw how they were being used. I was worried it'd be a silly revenge subplot ala Harry Goblin. I wasn't excited for Catwoman either. Until we got that rumor that she was a stripper. :lol:

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Old 12-03-2013, 07:22 PM   #49
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

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I didn't get the feeling that TDKR had the same LOS plot as BB.
Doomsday device stolen from Wayne Enterprises again by the LOS to destroy Gotham. LOS leader pretending to be someone they're not getting close to Bruce and then screwing him over.

It's not hard to see why people feel so much deja vu in TDKR.

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Old 12-03-2013, 07:30 PM   #50
Victarion
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Default Re: 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

The clean energy project had more of a connection to Bruce than the microwave emitter. The device wasn't used to destroy Gotham; it kept the govt from sending in the army while the revolution did Bane's and Talia's work. I'll give you that last point, though this time the deception cut deeper. Talia basically tried to work her way into Bruce's life as a Rachel stand-in. I'd argue that was more done on Bane's orders since Talia told us she just wanted to finish Ra's work of destroying Gotham.

These are what keep TDKR from simply being a rehash of BB's plot, for me.

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Last edited by Victarion; 12-03-2013 at 08:09 PM.
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