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Old 08-12-2011, 07:33 PM   #51
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Default Re: Is Today's Society too Cynical for a movie like Cap?

I think AMS will do fine.

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Old 08-12-2011, 07:47 PM   #52
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The message of the movie behind captain america was true and is the kind of message and hero we should see more often honestly. It was very refreshing and uplifting. Most of hollywood is too cynical to ever make a movie like that on their own.

It's why cap can be so hard to write for, why mark miller turned him into an swaggering *******, because he simply couldn't relate to who cap was and what he stood for. You've got to be able to relate to your character in order to write them.

We are darn lucky that Avi Arad appreciated what cap stood for enough to make sure this movie was done right in terms of style and tone. Cap is a classic true hero, not just a guy with super powers. For so long the comics and movie industry has taken the hero out of super hero.
Cap is a classic hero in the same way superman is, except cap doesn't have godlike powers which makes him even more amazing.

I do believe that the only reason captain america isn't going to come near iron man and thor in box office is because it doesn't appeal to the angsty and cynical worldview of most in today's western society.
Not everyone can relate to cap or the message of the movie.
godlike powers, no But, Cap does have Superpowers .

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Old 08-12-2011, 08:46 PM   #53
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I honestly think that the sequel to Cap will be "darker". Especially if it's set in the modern era with a new director. I could see them turning Cap into an action thriller like a Bourne Identity or Mission Impossible type movie. If done correctly it could be really entertaining. The Dark Knight is darker then Batman Begins but that is because the villain is...well, "darker". I have a feeling that TDKR will not be as negative and will end on a very positive note. I am sure Nolan will try to surprise the audience. I'm looking forward to Cap 2 because I have no idea what to expect. Is this society more cynical then the generations of the 80's and 90's? Probably, but look at the **** this country has been through in the past 11 years.


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Old 08-13-2011, 07:35 AM   #54
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Default Re: Is Today's Society too Cynical for a movie like Cap?

Makes me wonder though,how the movie would've turned out had they adapted the Mark Millar version of cap, who's a bit of a bastard.

In the comics, i much preffered Millar's take on the character, but the movie made me appreciate the 'normal'version of cap.

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Old 08-13-2011, 01:03 PM   #55
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why cap can be so hard to write for, why mark miller turned him into an swaggering *******, because he simply couldn't relate to who cap was and what he stood for. You've got to be able to relate to your character in order to write them.
Um, no. Millar knew exactly what he was doing in his characterization of Cap. He was supposed to be America as the world sees it...personified. And he succeeded pretty spectacularly.

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Old 05-24-2012, 12:42 AM   #56
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I think many people are pre-judging the movie.

Based upon the name CAPTAIN AMERICA they think this might be a hyper pro-american movie and/or they think that it might be very cheesy.

A female colleague at work was for some reason put-off by it and really fought against seeing it. After seeing it she completely changed her tune and really liked the movie.


Among people who are comicbook aware but not really comicbook lovers there is a perception that CAP is lame and the only thing he has is a shield which is also lame...
Thus it's audience and fanbase will explode.
Ok, now I'm a sucker for a guy with a shield, but I was certain I'd hate it. Thought it'd be an awful parody of an american, and an even worse parody of a hero.

I was won over. I'm a part of that exploding audience and fanbase, and I can't get enough of this character... and really, I'm pretty cynical. But I loves me some Cap!

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Old 05-29-2012, 04:57 AM   #57
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Default Re: Is Today's Society too Cynical for a movie like Cap?

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Ok, now I'm a sucker for a guy with a shield, but I was certain I'd hate it. Thought it'd be an awful parody of an american, and an even worse parody of a hero.

I was won over. I'm a part of that exploding audience and fanbase, and I can't get enough of this character... and really, I'm pretty cynical. But I loves me some Cap!
I'm on that bandwagon as well. I liked Cap when I was a kid in the 80s, but I eventually lost interest in him because I thought he was too idealized and dorky. I still tolerated his books from time to time, but I was more interested in the Blade, Venom, andSpawn types.

Because of this movie, I'm back to being a Cap fan. I've read more Cap books in the last year than the previous 20 years. With this flick and Avengers, Marvel admitted Cap is kind of dorky. Yet he's also extremely noble and valiant. Bring on more Cap flicks.

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Old 05-29-2012, 05:45 AM   #58
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Default Re: Is Today's Society too Cynical for a movie like Cap?

It's easy to be cynical when it comes to Captain America, especially being from the UK, but I have always enjoyed the character and with the new movies, it has further increased my enjoyment of the character, and has prompted me to go back and buy some trades of stories i've missed over the years.

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Old 08-26-2012, 12:01 PM   #59
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There is still very much a place in the Superhero pantheon for less morally ambiguous characters such as Captain America and Superman. They may not be the pinnacle of popularity as they were at one time, but certainly looking back a year later, Cap pulled in very respectable numbers, enough to warrant a sequel, and I think he is back in the mainstream to stay.

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Old 09-29-2013, 04:50 AM   #60
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yeah, it made money but im talking BIG money
Are you planning in robbing a bank?

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Old 10-09-2013, 11:26 AM   #61
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Default Re: Is Today's Society too Cynical for a movie like Cap?

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I'll also take this time to predict that the new emo spiderman reboot will be a failure.
Lol

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Old 10-16-2013, 01:31 AM   #62
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Default Re: Is Today's Society too Cynical for a movie like Cap?

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Well, the OP does have a point; film producers have been confusing the success of Nolan's movies with some "need" for dark and gritty.
Yes. Its come to the point where when comic book hero movies pitches are being discussed, the first suggestion or thought is '...this needs to be realistic'.

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Old 11-02-2013, 12:03 AM   #63
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Damn, that's a good question. I don't know? I mean, depending on how Cap is represented I guess. If Cap's represented as a 'Star Spangled Man' then I think the GA won't really give a damn, but if you give Cap problems (which I think The Winter Soldier will) people will care about him, and his movie.

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Old 11-15-2013, 12:30 PM   #64
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I think one reason why heroes like Cap have declined in overall popularity is because many people in the U.S. stand firmly against what their own country was founded on. There's whole groups of people who honestly believe that every behavior should be equalized, no matter how destructive by any standard. They also seem to think that America's a racist, hateful, murderous nation bent on conquest, which is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Captain America was created to represent the core values this great country was originally built on: absolute truth, unwavering bravery, personal responsibility, and patriotism detached from guilt or shame. As a character, Steve stands proudly in support of the ideas which so many nowadays have either abandoned, or still believe but refuse to reveal due to fear. If he were real, Steve would be the biggest opponent of political correctness this country's ever seen...and sadly, many Americans would hate him for it.

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Old 11-17-2013, 07:29 PM   #65
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I've been saying it over and over, for several months now. Rewatching the MCU, I have to rank CA:TFA as my favorite of the solo adventures, and just below Avengers as my favorite of the franchise. I've noticed a lot more people coming out and saying as they've revisited TFA that it's their favorite movie. I think it holds up incredibly well on rewatch… cheesy effects and villainy aside.

Plus, Steve Rogers in the 1940s is such an unique hero. He has little angst, besides wanting nothing more than to sacrifice himself for his country. He has no daddy issues, and he just wants to do good. He's not snarky, does not have rage issues, doesn't have a checkered past. He's an Everyman who's given an extraordinary opportunity to serve his country and he takes it. It's not an easy job, and thanks to Evans' performance, he makes the character so human and truly good, just really enjoyable to watch.

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Old 11-30-2013, 02:21 AM   #66
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I think that this is why they set the movie in World War II... the general public's perception is that America's efforts in WWII were a lot more noble.

If Captain America's origins had been remade to be contemporary, as was the case for all other MCU characters, the general public might have laughed. The Afghanistan war, the Iraq war, the Libya war, etc are not perceived remotely as well as efforts in WWII, for good reason. They are not noble wars, there are plenty of atrocities going on, and thus growing Steve Rogers in that context is a tough sell. America was never in any actual danger form those countries, unlike in WWII where Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.

It would have been gutsy to make a scene where Steve Rogers is running around Abu Ghraib telling the other soldiers to stop engaging in torture, to stop being sadists, and then vacating the military... however no comic book movie has ever had such balls, and I doubt any ever will.

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Old 11-30-2013, 10:58 AM   #67
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America was never in any actual danger form those countries, unlike in WWII where Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.
Do you count 9/11 as equaling a lack of danger? They took out 3,000 people in minutes, while it took us 10 years to kill one man.

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Old 11-30-2013, 11:44 AM   #68
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Do you count 9/11 as equaling a lack of danger? They took out 3,000 people in minutes, while it took us 10 years to kill one man.
America was in danger from Japan and Germany, they posed an existential threat. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. were never an existential threat to the United States, and the subsequent mass deaths in those countries were not justified. A targeted intervention in Afghanistan was justified, and no more. You say it took 10 years to kill Bin Ladin, but the historical record shows that he wasn't much of a priority in the first few years.

The general public knows this, and that is why Captain America's cinematic origins was not shifted to the modern era as was the case for all other Marvel comic book characters thus far.

It would have been very hard to make a Captain America movie where Steve Rogers fought in Iraq.


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Old 12-01-2013, 01:45 AM   #69
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I think one reason why heroes like Cap have declined in overall popularity is because many people in the U.S. stand firmly against what their own country was founded on. There's whole groups of people who honestly believe that every behavior should be equalized, no matter how destructive by any standard. They also seem to think that America's a racist, hateful, murderous nation bent on conquest, which is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Captain America was created to represent the core values this great country was originally built on: absolute truth, unwavering bravery, personal responsibility, and patriotism detached from guilt or shame. As a character, Steve stands proudly in support of the ideas which so many nowadays have either abandoned, or still believe but refuse to reveal due to fear. If he were real, Steve would be the biggest opponent of political correctness this country's ever seen...and sadly, many Americans would hate him for it.
Actually wouldn't the Red Skull be the biggest opponent of political correctness, at least in the comics. Red Skull is racist, sexist, homophobic psychopath and is currently trying to organize genocide against the mutant race. Heck there was story where Red Skull was harassing a WWII vet Cap befriended who happened to be gay, Cap certainly did not look down on him like the Red Skull did. I don't think its "political correctness" fight against hate and intolerance, which I hope is more of a theme in future Cap movies.


In the 70s, Steve Rogers even gave up his role as Captain America, when he found out the Secret Empire was controlling many important officials US government (the leader of the Secret Empire was supposed to Richard Nixon, but we never see his face). So Cap's faith in America has been shaken before, which is why now he serves the American dream, rather then the just being a puppet of the US government. But he has had his faith shaken by people in the US government acting in a corrupt or cowardly way. The US government also replaced Steve Rogers with John Walker back in the 80s, though that was because Red Skull had gained some influence over the US government at that point. Cap has felt guilt and shame when the US government acts in an immoral way, he has not been about "patriotism detached from guilt or shame" for a long while now, because when the US government does something shameful, he actively opposes it, rather then just "standing by the President".


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Old 12-02-2013, 07:38 AM   #70
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No to the OP. A society of cynicism is the perfect society for someone like Captain America. To see someone hold onto what they believe in in the face of an ugly world is truly inspiring.

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Old 12-04-2013, 12:45 AM   #71
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Actually wouldn't the Red Skull be the biggest opponent of political correctness, at least in the comics. Red Skull is racist, sexist, homophobic psychopath and is currently trying to organize genocide against the mutant race. Heck there was story where Red Skull was harassing a WWII vet Cap befriended who happened to be gay, Cap certainly did not look down on him like the Red Skull did. I don't think its "political correctness" fight against hate and intolerance, which I hope is more of a theme in future Cap movies.
That whole paragraph is hinged on the word "tolerance", which has sadly changed definition in popular culture over the last several decades. Embracing plainly contradicting things as equally true is not tolerant, but foolish. Basic logic dictates that right and wrong are mutually exclusive; if something's true, it applies to everyone regardless of personal belief. If he were real, Steve wouldn't insult someone for pursuing a same-sex relationship, but he wouldn't be dancing at "gay pride" parades either. There's a difference between hating someone as a person, and standing for the truth...even if it means disappointing or angering someone you care about.

By contrast, political correctness is all about attempting to equalize every choice, no matter how opposite from each other they may be. Its the mindset which popularized the phrase, "truth lies in the eye of the beholder".

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Old 12-05-2013, 09:19 PM   #72
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That whole paragraph is hinged on the word "tolerance", which has sadly changed definition in popular culture over the last several decades. Embracing plainly contradicting things as equally true is not tolerant, but foolish. Basic logic dictates that right and wrong are mutually exclusive; if something's true, it applies to everyone regardless of personal belief. If he were real, Steve wouldn't insult someone for pursuing a same-sex relationship, but he wouldn't be dancing at "gay pride" parades either. There's a difference between hating someone as a person, and standing for the truth...even if it means disappointing or angering someone you care about.

By contrast, political correctness is all about attempting to equalize every choice, no matter how opposite from each other they may be. Its the mindset which popularized the phrase, "truth lies in the eye of the beholder".
Yeah but Red Skull intentionally humiliated a man for no reason other then the fact he was homosexual, that is unbelievably cruel and nasty. What is Cap supposed to say to that guy, that Red Skull was right and that guy was inferior because he was homosexual?

I'm not going to make this into a political debate, but it seems like Red Skull is far more politically incorrect then Cap was. The Nazis were many things, but they were not politically correct. The idea of an Aryan Master Race doesn't seem very politically correct at all.

Where do we draw the line at where political correctness begins and where hatred and intolerance begins?

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Old 12-06-2013, 01:43 AM   #73
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Yeah but Red Skull intentionally humiliated a man for no reason other then the fact he was homosexual, that is unbelievably cruel and nasty. What is Cap supposed to say to that guy, that Red Skull was right and that guy was inferior because he was homosexual?

I'm not going to make this into a political debate, but it seems like Red Skull is far more politically incorrect then Cap was. The Nazis were many things, but they were not politically correct. The idea of an Aryan Master Race doesn't seem very politically correct at all.

Where do we draw the line at where political correctness begins and where hatred and intolerance begins?
As I said, someone like Cap would treat the individual with respect, but also remain in patient opposition to their personal choice when activism is concerned. Political correctness is all about the mentality of victimhood, holding offense as the most despicable thing in society...whether its intended by others or not.

For example, Carrie Prejean was baited by Perez Hilton a few years ago, and standing for what she truly believed resulted in a huge backlash because Perez refused to keep his foolish mouth shut. He intentionally manipulated that situation to go against her, saying Carrie was a "dumb b*tch" because she didn't agree with homosexuality being legalized across the board. Someone with Cap's sense of morality would defend people who are truly victims of cruelty, instead of siding with folks who personally condemn anyone who doesn't share their viewpoint.

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Old 12-08-2013, 09:21 PM   #74
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As I said, someone like Cap would treat the individual with respect, but also remain in patient opposition to their personal choice when activism is concerned. Political correctness is all about the mentality of victimhood, holding offense as the most despicable thing in society...whether its intended by others or not.

For example, Carrie Prejean was baited by Perez Hilton a few years ago, and standing for what she truly believed resulted in a huge backlash because Perez refused to keep his foolish mouth shut. He intentionally manipulated that situation to go against her, saying Carrie was a "dumb b*tch" because she didn't agree with homosexuality being legalized across the board. Someone with Cap's sense of morality would defend people who are truly victims of cruelty, instead of siding with folks who personally condemn anyone who doesn't share their viewpoint.
It seems like Ultimate Captain America is more politically incorrect then 616 Cap is and a lot of people think he is a jerk.

Plus how do make Cap "fighting political correctness". Red Skull, his main nemesis, seems far more politically incorrect then Cap ever was, it seems like Cap would spend more time fighting hate and intolerance then political correctness.

I guess you don't like the fact that one of Cap's enemies in the modern era is a right wing militia that uses violence to promote social conservatism called the Watchdogs. There was also a left wing terrorist group called ULTIMATUM, made up of a bunch of anarchists who want to abolish the concept of nation states, so I think it balances out.

I don't think Cap should be some sort of uber social conservative, a lot of the audience would not like that.

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Old 12-10-2013, 12:02 AM   #75
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I'm not aware of how Cap is currently portrayed in the books, because I haven't read them in over a decade. You and I seem to have different definitions of "political correctness", mine being the mindset that everything's always equally true, regardless of contradictions. "Inclusive" is a favorite term for people like that, when what they really mean is excluding absolute truth across the board.

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