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Old 12-09-2013, 06:09 PM   #226
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Then again mos get's alot of stuff other films don't.
that was my point and what I tried to say obviously MOS vfx had flaws, but any some of the great movies VFX talking had them too and that doesn't lower the overall quality which was great (not perfect)
MOS had some stuff that was groundbreaking and never before seen in some aspects.

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1. I thought apes was nominated last year
2. On set performance capture wasn't invented last year(wasn't even invented the year of pirates 2 where it was also used) though I suppose you can argue some new wonderful thing was developed for apes.
3. Time and resource distribution can solve alot of problems, it goes both ways however, spidey 2 had some high fidelity moments and it had some very low ones. That being the truth, you can only excuse tech so much.
It would be different if the film consistently looked bad.


Sorry but if the issue is of consistency, I simply see a double standard.
Completely agree Not to mention Spiderman has always the advantage of using a mask and due to that the character is way to easier to plasm and Superman's powers especially flying without a mask or an armor makes the VFX workers to work 10 times harder than with another superhero. IMO Superman is the most difficult character to plasm on the big screen. That's why I loved the way MOS did the effects giving Superman great moments (obviously with some issues that most of the movies had) and plasming his powers in a realistic way.

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Old 12-09-2013, 06:39 PM   #227
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

no mask is a pretty significant thing.
I can only imagine how much easier ironman is due to this...than again, no one really brings up Nam-ek, that might explain why.

I personally think snyder needs to better plan around this. Skip on the body doubling until you absolutely have to and just opt for green screen with but with real actors in front of camera's. It'll be worth it. Spidey is different cause no one can actually move like that. But they were using doubles in this film for him jumping and boxing and stuff...bad idea imo.


And more day light contrast. I can't stress that enough. If this entire film was lit as it was during the desert scene....

Not sure which vfx house did Gravity but 10 years or what not of vis development goes along way when campaigning.

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Old 12-09-2013, 09:42 PM   #228
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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no mask is a pretty significant thing.
I can only imagine how much easier ironman is due to this...than again, no one really brings up Nam-ek, that might explain why.

I personally think snyder needs to better plan around this. Skip on the body doubling until you absolutely have to and just opt for green screen with but with real actors in front of camera's. It'll be worth it. Spidey is different cause no one can actually move like that. But they were using doubles in this film for him jumping and boxing and stuff...bad idea imo.


And more day light contrast. I can't stress that enough. If this entire film was lit as it was during the desert scene....

Not sure which vfx house did Gravity but 10 years or what not of vis development goes along way when campaigning.
Spidey's movements are pretty difficult to plasm. Agreed.
Also flying and fighting in the air without a mask I think it's pretty much difficult to plasm in the big screen also.
Actually yeah they used doubles but if you see in the all out action featurette Cavill did most of the shots that required plenty of Superman's actions and reactions.

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Old 12-09-2013, 09:50 PM   #229
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Spidey's movements are pretty difficult to plasm. Agreed.
Also flying and fighting in the air without a mask I think it's pretty much difficult to plasm in the big screen also.
Actually yeah they used doubles but if you see in the all out action featurette Cavill did most of the shots that required plenty of Superman's actions and reactions.
I figured as much. They should have maybe tried to preserve that instead of go to double.

cgi doubling ruined blade 2 for me lol.
Whereas in blade one, it was green screen compositing genius.

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:00 PM   #230
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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I figured as much. They should have maybe tried to preserve that instead of go to double.

cgi doubling ruined blade 2 for me lol.
Whereas in blade one, it was green screen compositing genius.
some of them were doubling (at least the difficult ones) yeah that's for sure. But some other had Green Screen and wires and other had doubles but due to the great job in some scenes I didn't notice those.
I hope Snyder use a little of Slow-motion to some scenes involving Superman and Batman in the next movie

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #231
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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The issue is technical inconsistencies being a disqualifier in a 2013 movie by 2013's standards. You cannot compare today's standards to those prevailing for films released more than 10 years ago when the technology was still extremely young. There are shots you can forgive in Spider-Man because of the technical limitations that used to exist. MoS problems in the VFX department don't come from any technical limitation (as far as I know anyways, they had all the proper tools) but most likely from planning mistakes and a poor handling in the work distribution between all the companies that provided the CGI work of the 2 sequences in Smallville and Metropolis.

Now you can pin point whatever you want in my arguments but all the films mentionned from Spider-Man to Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes helped promote some technological innovations, wether it's something brand new (wich is always debatable anyways) or significant refinements. MoS didn't.

I mean Spider-Man featured the first use of photogrammetry on such a large scale, Spider-Man 2 showcased the first use of reflectance field rendering of human faces (wich was basically just a theory before the movie went to production) and Rise Of The Planet of The Apes is the first film (and maybe still only film, I would have to double check that) that features the use of performance capture in exterior environments using a technology that was never used before. All those movies promoted technological advancement and deserved their nominations for this very reason.
2 questions
1. How do you know so much about the techs of these movies? Did you go to college for these certain areas?
2. Did Star Trek 09 get nominated for its lens flares?

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Old 12-09-2013, 10:49 PM   #232
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

How can people diss rise of the planet of the apes? It was beautiful.

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Old 12-10-2013, 12:41 AM   #233
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Indeed MOS has amazing CGI but who said it was perfect? The issues are there no doubt but not as big as some claim. that's all. Those are different things. especially in the second gif its nototious that the speed and the angle of the shot gives that effect. But in the first gif it for example I saw in the documentary all out action that this scene was indeed with real actors and that made the shot real. not all the shots had the same difficulty and the ones in the last act were the most difficult IMO. I think MOS CGI is groundbreaking in some new and never before seen aspects, also due to the difficulty on plasming Superman's powers and he doesn't wear mask, armor or anything that makes the VFX easy to plasm, that's was my point. Of course there is room from improvement in some aspects but with new technology and I hope they do it even better than this time. I respect your opinion because you have different tastes that's ok no problem. We all have different points of view. Have a nice day
I don't buy the whole "Superman doesn't wear the mask, so it makes the CGI stand out that much more clearly" argument. There were points in MOS where Superman's face is clearly revealed and yet the CGI was fine. I recall the Smallville battle, where his face was revealed and the CGI was fine. Heck, even the transitions were a hell of a lot better than the Metropolis finale.

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Old 12-10-2013, 01:04 AM   #234
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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How can people diss rise of the planet of the apes? It was beautiful.
The film was indeed great looking, but it had a ton of shots that were just..

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I don't buy the whole "Superman doesn't wear the mask, so it makes the CGI stand out that much more clearly" argument. There were points in MOS where Superman's face is clearly revealed and yet the CGI was fine. I recall the Smallville battle, where his face was revealed and the CGI was fine. Heck, even the transitions were a hell of a lot better than the Metropolis finale.
The point was/is, that it simply takes more work to make a face(very recognizable to all ages in the audience) look real than say, Ironman/Spiderman's mask.
Look at the fly away scene at the end of Superman Returns, the minute you get a clear view of his face the jig is up. Contrast this with how many clear shots of Ironman/Spiderman's faces during their aerials.

Moreover, alot of those smallville face shots are seem pretty obvious, but that's me.

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Old 12-10-2013, 04:07 AM   #235
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

Regardless, it won't win. It'll be Gravity for sure.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:19 AM   #236
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

Anyone notice the CG face replacement on Zod and Jor-El during the fight in the prologue?

That alone should've gotten them on the shortlist, without fail.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:32 AM   #237
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

Whoa, didn't even think about that.

His suit was cg during the fight?!

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:35 AM   #238
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

Shannon and Crowe's suits were CG during the fight but for the majority of the fight, it's not Shannon doing the stunt work. It's someone else with CG face replacement and it's pretty flawless, unless you slow it down frame by frame.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:49 AM   #239
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Shannon and Crowe's suits were CG during the fight but for the majority of the fight, it's not Shannon doing the stunt work. It's someone else with CG face replacement and it's pretty flawless, unless you slow it down frame by frame.
THIS, having finally watched the special features (xbox smartglass) i was gobsmacked at just seeing motion capture outfits and thinking where the hell the realsuits are. When i watched that feature on my laptop and the film playing on my tv my jaw was still on the floor. The CG was brilliant in that scene another thing was how much they CG'ed Supermans cape it still looked so realistic. Great job from the crew however i do echo some of the thoughts about CG doubling on supes face due to having his face out in the open. Very hard to get right and the transtion between CG and real must of been even harder.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:59 AM   #240
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

Yeah, I knew the cape was CG some of the time. I was kind of stunned to realize that the cape was CG about 95% of the time.

But the work on the suits for male Kryptonian are pretty spectacular.

Also, anyone else notice that Cavill's suit was black during some of the stunt work and they had to digitally color correct it?

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Old 12-10-2013, 06:24 AM   #241
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Yeah, I knew the cape was CG some of the time. I was kind of stunned to realize that the cape was CG about 95% of the time.

But the work on the suits for male Kryptonian are pretty spectacular.

Also, anyone else notice that Cavill's suit was black during some of the stunt work and they had to digitally color correct it?
Yea exactly , Why did they do that was it something to do with the green screen/CG elements . This is why i love special features ,the little things you see make you appreciate the cast and crew even more.

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Old 12-10-2013, 06:29 AM   #242
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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some of them were doubling (at least the difficult ones) yeah that's for sure. But some other had Green Screen and wires and other had doubles but due to the great job in some scenes I didn't notice those.
I hope Snyder use a little of Slow-motion to some scenes involving Superman and Batman in the next movie
This, I prefer slow motion than choppy movement.

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Old 12-10-2013, 06:44 AM   #243
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Yea exactly , Why did they do that was it something to do with the green screen/CG elements . This is why i love special features ,the little things you see make you appreciate the cast and crew even more.
Agreed. There was a ton of work done to this flick.

Man of Steel getting snubbed like this reminds me of '07 when ILM was snubbed on Transformers.

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Old 12-10-2013, 06:47 AM   #244
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Agreed. There was a ton of work done to this flick.

Man of Steel getting snubbed like this reminds me of '07 when ILM was snubbed on Transformers.
Transformers wasn't snubbed. It made the bake-off and even got nominated.

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Old 12-10-2013, 07:00 AM   #245
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Transformers wasn't snubbed. It made the bake-off and even got nominated.
It was snubbed. ILM's work with Bay on that first Transformers film was next level work. 6 years later and it's still, to me, a benchmark.

It should've won. Nothing that year came within the same universe of ILM's work on Transformers.

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Old 12-10-2013, 10:04 AM   #246
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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It was snubbed. ILM's work with Bay on that first Transformers film was next level work. 6 years later and it's still, to me, a benchmark.

It should've won. Nothing that year came within the same universe of ILM's work on Transformers.
I get what you're saying, but the world building of The Golden Compass with the shape-shifting daemons was more challenging (regardless what you think of the film). Add to that there were several moving at the same time with human actors in a couple of scenes, which is more difficult to rotoscope in than giant metal robots (and a lot of time in that film, Bay kept the camera moving or ruined some money shots with rapid-fire editing). I think Rhythm & Hues deserved that win that year.

I tell you though, ILM was robbed when Hugo won over the third TF film last year. It was the first TF film where you could soak in the detail and the massive set pieces without getting a headache, and it was hugely impressive. Much better work than the first film.

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Old 12-10-2013, 10:29 AM   #247
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

The cgi cape was one if the best elements if this film, after the atrocity if SRs cape I have realized that how this thing looks and operates is very important and I feel MOS did the best work on it; this is one element where I can not tell when it is fake and when it is real.

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Old 12-10-2013, 01:08 PM   #248
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

It's funny because many times when fx artists do their jobs right you actually don't know how much vfx work was done. Kind of like how Nolan's films created such an amazing blend of cg most people didn't ever realize how much cg actually was used in the films. I think eh problem with superman is that making two people fight at a realistic speed is kind of just incomprehensible so no matter what they do, your mind knows it's fake and per levee it as such. I hope Snyder utilizes more speed ramping in the next one to help sell it better and enhance the story when appropriate.

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Old 12-10-2013, 02:28 PM   #249
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
The point was/is, that it simply takes more work to make a face(very recognizable to all ages in the audience) look real than say, Ironman/Spiderman's mask.
Look at the fly away scene at the end of Superman Returns, the minute you get a clear view of his face the jig is up. Contrast this with how many clear shots of Ironman/Spiderman's faces during their aerials.


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Originally Posted by Daywalker89 View Post
THIS, having finally watched the special features (xbox smartglass) i was gobsmacked at just seeing motion capture outfits and thinking where the hell the realsuits are. When i watched that feature on my laptop and the film playing on my tv my jaw was still on the floor. The CG was brilliant in that scene another thing was how much they CG'ed Supermans cape it still looked so realistic. Great job from the crew however i do echo some of the thoughts about CG doubling on supes face due to having his face out in the open. Very hard to get right and the transtion between CG and real must of been even harder.
Agreed nice post

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Old 12-10-2013, 02:40 PM   #250
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Default Re: Shocker! The Academy discards Man Of Steel from Best Visual FX Oscar race!!!

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So the Visual Effects Oscar is a 3 step race. First the Branch members visit a bake-off where they narrow down hundreds of film to 10.

Then there is another vote to determine the 5 nominees.

And then the entire Academy membership votes to determine the winner. We already know the winner - Gravity, but the bake off list of 10 was just released and Man Of Steel was discarded by the Academy.

"Elysium"
"Gravity"
"The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug"
"Iron Man 3"
"The Lone Ranger"
"Oblivion"
"Pacific Rim"
"Star Trek Into Darkness"
"Thor: The Dark World"
"World War Z"

Both the MCU movies made it perhaps underlining that Man Of Steel was really hurt by its bad reviews and "Rotten" status on RT.

Do you think Man Of Steel will continue TDKR's tradition of ZERO Oscar nominations?

Because this was the one nomination it could have gotten.
This is just visual effects. The other nominations will be announced on January 16th.

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