The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > The Avengers > Avengers: Age of Ultron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-07-2013, 01:35 PM   #401
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
No, I'm convinced that he's the only guy in the MCU that does create AI. Because no one else has been shown to do so, or indicated to have any interest or need to do so. Banner can, but he doesn't, for instance. Zola is speculation - he's not an AI in 616, and never an AI creator in comics. Plus he's not rumored to appear in Avengers 2 to create the guy anyway. Others are even more tenuous speculation. That's why I say I'm not convinced, because they're all speculative theories as opposed to: this guy makes AI.
Modern writers *have* retconned the process of putting Zola's "brain waves" into the android as an actual AI. Makes more sense than what the writers understood about robotic technology in the 1960s.

Anyhow, let me ask you this: *if* Arnim Zola in CATWS *does* turn into, you know, the actual android/AI any comic book reader expects him to be, would you then be more willing to accept that he's a great candidate for Ultron's creator?

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2013, 01:35 PM   #402
CoherentChaos
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 379
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

I just hope we do get to see Tony being so dangerous before his big fall (and absence until A3). Not only as someone of his intellect and ambition being what perhaps leads to Ultron's creation, but also as general power armor visual spectacle (Stuff like Pacific Rim is my jam just so you know). The result of Tony's struggle to match the tremendous threats the universe may hold. He's not PTSD'ing about alien invasions anymore, but IM3 left on the note that whatever the problem, he'd have confidence in his ability to fix it. I can imagine then that the events of The Dark World may have sparked such ambition if none remains after the Loki/Chitauri incident.

Basically I want to see him aim to punch out Cthulhu despite being a mere mortal (or in this case beings like Thanos), even if he ultimately can't. Or at least not on his own. But still, A for effort from a 'man in a can'.

CoherentChaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 01:30 AM   #403
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 6,344
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Modern writers *have* retconned the process of putting Zola's "brain waves" into the android as an actual AI. Makes more sense than what the writers understood about robotic technology in the 1960s.

Anyhow, let me ask you this: *if* Arnim Zola in CATWS *does* turn into, you know, the actual android/AI any comic book reader expects him to be, would you then be more willing to accept that he's a great candidate for Ultron's creator?
Well in the 1960s it wasn't robots so much as a cloned brain, right? He was making like Frankenstein cyborgs, basically. Very macabre, but hey retcons are retcons.

Regardless, if he makes AI he'll be a reasonable theory, but still vastly inferior because he's not a hero, and so you can't have the interesting parts of Ultron's story, where a hero has guilt and angst and Ultron is at war with his creator(s).

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 08:57 AM   #404
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Well in the 1960s it wasn't robots so much as a cloned brain, right? He was making like Frankenstein cyborgs, basically. Very macabre, but hey retcons are retcons.

Regardless, if he makes AI he'll be a reasonable theory, but still vastly inferior because he's not a hero, and so you can't have the interesting parts of Ultron's story, where a hero has guilt and angst and Ultron is at war with his creator(s).
What if, by extension, it was Arnim Zola and Howard Stark, working together, who created Ultron for SHIELD? Then you get your guilt and angst and anger, but rather than self-directed, it's against Tony's dead father. Very oedipal.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 12:16 PM   #405
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 6,344
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

If the creators are evil and dead, they can't have any guilt, his corruption isn't tragic, and Ultron isn't battling them, so his issue with the stars of the movie isn't at all personal, as it is for every other incarnation of Ultron. So we've made the story unnecessarily convoluted by bringing in characters that aren't naturally in AOU and also less interesting, because we've stripped Ultron of his connection to the heroes.

What if... y'know... Tony just makes Ultron, just like he makes all his other AI robotic stuff. Isn't he the by far best stand in for Hank Pym? He's an inventor, an Avenger, he's a superhero, he's got issues comparing himself to the other Avengers, he makes AI, he makes robots, he's probably going to be the emotional center of AOU just like he was A1, with all these reasons to have Tony make Ultron... what are the cons? Why wouldn't they do this simple obvious thing? That's the problem I would have with someone else being Ultron's inventor. Tony is too ideal.

I know you've said that Tony is too qualified to make Ultron, that he wouldn't make mistakes, but he made a few mistakes with JARVIS in IM3, unwittingly ordering JARVIS to kill Pepper in the final battle and calling the armor to defend him from Pepper in his sleep in the beginning. He makes AI. He makes mistakes with AI. I don't see why they wouldn't just follow that logically for AOU.

Zola and Stark should make Super Adaptiod. That makes more sense, and is more consistent with what we've seen from them in the MCU.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

Last edited by DrCosmic; 12-08-2013 at 12:46 PM.
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 12:18 PM   #406
metaphysician
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,850
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoherentChaos View Post
I just hope we do get to see Tony being so dangerous before his big fall (and absence until A3).
*citation needed*

metaphysician is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 12:23 PM   #407
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 6,344
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
*citation needed*
This is assuming they do something with Tony similar to what they did with Pym, where inventing Ultron has a tremendously negative effect on his superhero career. It is convenient, as Tony will not be seen again until Avengers 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoherentChaos View Post
I just hope we do get to see Tony being so dangerous before his big fall (and absence until A3). Not only as someone of his intellect and ambition being what perhaps leads to Ultron's creation, but also as general power armor visual spectacle (Stuff like Pacific Rim is my jam just so you know). The result of Tony's struggle to match the tremendous threats the universe may hold. He's not PTSD'ing about alien invasions anymore, but IM3 left on the note that whatever the problem, he'd have confidence in his ability to fix it. I can imagine then that the events of The Dark World may have sparked such ambition if none remains after the Loki/Chitauri incident.

Basically I want to see him aim to punch out Cthulhu despite being a mere mortal (or in this case beings like Thanos), even if he ultimately can't. Or at least not on his own. But still, A for effort from a 'man in a can'.
Yeah, I think IM3 really set him up to think beyond the armors, I'd like to see some really crazy armor set ups too, but satellite lasers, tons of crazy weaponry, explosives and targetting. Chemical compounds, sonic/illusion tech. Craziness.

I once ran a game with this one guy who fought using rocket pads. Instead of pushing or punching things, he would put a sticky rocket pad on something and it would go off and fly that thing into the sky or through a wall or pin a guy to the ground. Doing that with repulsors could be crazy fun.

The more I think about it though, the more I think these are all things that Ultron would end up using instead, and Tony will have to go back to basics and be a hero with the power of heart as opposed to superbrain. I think Tony will and should be out thought here.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 06:38 PM   #408
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
If the creators are evil and dead, they can't have any guilt, his corruption isn't tragic, and Ultron isn't battling them, so his issue with the stars of the movie isn't at all personal, as it is for every other incarnation of Ultron. So we've made the story unnecessarily convoluted by bringing in characters that aren't naturally in AOU and also less interesting, because we've stripped Ultron of his connection to the heroes.

What if... y'know... Tony just makes Ultron, just like he makes all his other AI robotic stuff. Isn't he the by far best stand in for Hank Pym? He's an inventor, an Avenger, he's a superhero, he's got issues comparing himself to the other Avengers, he makes AI, he makes robots, he's probably going to be the emotional center of AOU just like he was A1, with all these reasons to have Tony make Ultron... what are the cons? Why wouldn't they do this simple obvious thing? That's the problem I would have with someone else being Ultron's inventor. Tony is too ideal.

I know you've said that Tony is too qualified to make Ultron, that he wouldn't make mistakes, but he made a few mistakes with JARVIS in IM3, unwittingly ordering JARVIS to kill Pepper in the final battle and calling the armor to defend him from Pepper in his sleep in the beginning. He makes AI. He makes mistakes with AI. I don't see why they wouldn't just follow that logically for AOU.

Zola and Stark should make Super Adaptiod. That makes more sense, and is more consistent with what we've seen from them in the MCU.
The cons of making Tony the creator are not only that it makes him very fallible on a horrific (genocidal, if we're going to be true to the comics) level, but also that the reasoning doesn't make any sense. Tony is a man who's out of the weapons business, who despises SHIELD and the military and warmongering, and who has gone on a long, personal journey to discover that humanity is far more important than technology. Particularly on a directly personal level, where this Tin Man no longer has an artificial heart beating inside him, but a real one. So there's no conceivable reason that a man with this philosophy would ever consider it a good idea to create a killer robot for himself or for anybody else.

Plus, there's a damn good chance that Arnim Zola isn't dead. If he's gone AI, like Wintermute in William Gibson's classic cyberpunk tales, then he's essentially immortal --- a ghost in the machine. It would be simple enough for AI Zola to take over Ultron's systems, or to take over JARVIS or Iron Man's systems and make them "evil."

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 08:09 PM   #409
AlexanderLykins
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 487
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

This is definitely the most interesting and most speculated Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) movie to date.

AlexanderLykins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 09:00 PM   #410
CoherentChaos
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 379
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
The cons of making Tony the creator are not only that it makes him very fallible on a horrific (genocidal, if we're going to be true to the comics) level, but also that the reasoning doesn't make any sense. Tony is a man who's out of the weapons business, who despises SHIELD and the military and warmongering, and who has gone on a long, personal journey to discover that humanity is far more important than technology. Particularly on a directly personal level, where this Tin Man no longer has an artificial heart beating inside him, but a real one. So there's no conceivable reason that a man with this philosophy would ever consider it a good idea to create a killer robot for himself or for anybody else.

Plus, there's a damn good chance that Arnim Zola isn't dead. If he's gone AI, like Wintermute in William Gibson's classic cyberpunk tales, then he's essentially immortal --- a ghost in the machine. It would be simple enough for AI Zola to take over Ultron's systems, or to take over JARVIS or Iron Man's systems and make them "evil."
We're not saying that Tony makes Ultron with the intent of him being evil. What you just described is something I agree with, and that Tony sure as hell isn't going to just wake up one day and decide "I need to make a killer robot".

But what if Ultron is something designed with the ambition to end that warmongering he's now against? I had an idea that Ultron could be some weapons neutralization agent. An AI specialized in locating and hacking into advanced weapon systems and disabling them. So that way terrorists simply can't blow people to bits with left over Stark weapons or what have you. Keeps the killing manual and thus hopefully minimal. Sounds like a very Tony thing to try to accomplish.

But thanks to SHIELD tampering, Zola, or Tony's own arrogance (depends on what themes the writer wants to explore with it), the AI goes rogue. JARVIS gets messed up or even deleted (or Vision time like many here want to see). Tony's assembly lines get hijacked, Ultron makes a body for himself (or modifies one of the existing armors like the teaser suggests) and goes on to do whatever.

And if he's specialized in seizing weapon systems and basically being like "lol no guided missiles for you", then he's essentially got every one of the world's armies by the balls. He's untouchable, and he could reduce countless cities to ash if given enough provocation.

Satellite lasers you say? He's got that. Then he doesn't even have to be made of vibranium cause Hulk or Thor would have to contest with literal fire from the sky before they can reach him.

~

Also, I would love to see a Repulsor Pad applied to someone for an epic BFR.

CoherentChaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 10:27 PM   #411
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoherentChaos View Post
We're not saying that Tony makes Ultron with the intent of him being evil. What you just described is something I agree with, and that Tony sure as hell isn't going to just wake up one day and decide "I need to make a killer robot".

But what if Ultron is something designed with the ambition to end that warmongering he's now against? I had an idea that Ultron could be some weapons neutralization agent. An AI specialized in locating and hacking into advanced weapon systems and disabling them. So that way terrorists simply can't blow people to bits with left over Stark weapons or what have you. Keeps the killing manual and thus hopefully minimal. Sounds like a very Tony thing to try to accomplish.

But thanks to SHIELD tampering, Zola, or Tony's own arrogance (depends on what themes the writer wants to explore with it), the AI goes rogue. JARVIS gets messed up or even deleted (or Vision time like many here want to see). Tony's assembly lines get hijacked, Ultron makes a body for himself (or modifies one of the existing armors like the teaser suggests) and goes on to do whatever.

And if he's specialized in seizing weapon systems and basically being like "lol no guided missiles for you", then he's essentially got every one of the world's armies by the balls. He's untouchable, and he could reduce countless cities to ash if given enough provocation.

Satellite lasers you say? He's got that. Then he doesn't even have to be made of vibranium cause Hulk or Thor would have to contest with literal fire from the sky before they can reach him.

~

Also, I would love to see a Repulsor Pad applied to someone for an epic BFR.
That's a good approach. Basically like Matthew Broderick's War Games, but with superheroes and villains duking it out over ICBMs instead of kids playing an Atari video game.

I still think Zola would be the ideal fly in the ointment there, as you point out as well. A rogue AI hacking in to make Ultron start thinking dirty thoughts.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2013, 11:36 PM   #412
metaphysician
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,850
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
This is assuming they do something with Tony similar to what they did with Pym, where inventing Ultron has a tremendously negative effect on his superhero career. It is convenient, as Tony will not be seen again until Avengers 3.
Oh, I can certainly see something like that happening. However, it being possible does not mean people should go assuming it *will* happen.

metaphysician is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 01:23 AM   #413
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 6,344
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
The cons of making Tony the creator are not only that it makes him very fallible on a horrific (genocidal, if we're going to be true to the comics) level, but also that the reasoning doesn't make any sense. Tony is a man who's out of the weapons business, who despises SHIELD and the military and warmongering, and who has gone on a long, personal journey to discover that humanity is far more important than technology. Particularly on a directly personal level, where this Tin Man no longer has an artificial heart beating inside him, but a real one. So there's no conceivable reason that a man with this philosophy would ever consider it a good idea to create a killer robot for himself or for anybody else.
Isn't it the opposite though? Tony deciding to care about people and being out of the weapons business since the first thirty minutes of the MCU did not stop him from making literally tons of weapons for himself. The further he's been from the weapons business and the more he cares about people, the more he's made incredible technology, the more he's trusted JARVIS. In fact, he didn't make killer robots until he felt he couldn't live without Pepper, as he did in IM3. So the more he has the philosophy you describe, the more he makes incredible technology that works on its own. Now that Pepper is even more important than tinkering, I shudder how incredible a thing Tony will make, and how much he will defer to JARVIS since clearly Pepper is more important than overseeing every little detail.

Making a mistake that leads to genocide does not mean you're "genocidally fallible." It means you have a lot of power, and that means small mistakes have big consequences.

Quote:
Plus, there's a damn good chance that Arnim Zola isn't dead. If he's gone AI, like Wintermute in William Gibson's classic cyberpunk tales, then he's essentially immortal --- a ghost in the machine. It would be simple enough for AI Zola to take over Ultron's systems, or to take over JARVIS or Iron Man's systems and make them "evil."
Simple, but not interesting, not reminiscent of comics at all, and makes Ultron a flunky of Zola. Ewww. Zola will be in Cap 2, and that will and should probably be it.

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 02:19 PM   #414
jaqua99
....I need a horse!
 
jaqua99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: dont you worry about that
Posts: 6,092
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

There's got to be more than Just Tony. It's personal to everyone. This movie isn't going to be Iron man 4.

If Tony Makes Ultron, it becomes Literally Iron man featuring the Avegners. His problem.

What I think will happen, is that it will be some long existing type of software, that makes its rounds through HYDRA, and eventually into SHIELD. somehow or another, I think mandarin had something to do with it, and he was using this type of software to get to Tony. (Remember the HUD in Iron man 3, inside the Patriot, when Stark lost control of it? That HUD wasn't JARVIS').

By the end of CA2, this software, or, program, or eventual tampered AI makes its way to SHIELD. Which has been infiltrated. HYDRA wants to use it to control the world. Redford, or whoever gets inside SHIELD convinces them it's okay to use. It's now a solid AI.

Shield Calls it, the
Universal
Large
Threat
Response
Only
Network

U.L.T.R.O.N.
Stark ends up convincing SHIELD or whatever that it is okay to use this, seeing as AI has been good to him, he trusts it. Builds him its body. Then Ultron is in the world.

Ant-man movies roles around...it gets revealed Pym created this software, with the help of howard stark that makes its rounds to AIM/HYDRA, and then to SHIELD and eventually becomes Ultron.

I think Ultron already exists.

Remember the SHIELD episode, "The Hub", when Skye was looking into the camera, and it showed her from the camera's point of view?

Skye said "I feel like it's watching me". Clues guys. Tony won't create Ultron. He may be responsible for bringing him into the world, but he won't create him. Pretty sure the network already exists. That moment in "The Hub" episode could have been a hint.

__________________
hi
jaqua99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 05:03 PM   #415
mkilban2
family1stclothingco.com
 
mkilban2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 3,554
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

I like the idea of an Ultron system that had been in place throughout the entire MCU and maybe even before IM1. And over all that time it's been learning, and growing in its knowledge capacity. So then in AoU were finally introduced to this system that's been around forever and still seems dormant and helpful, with the team behind the idea a body is built which then gives Ultron the chance to set his plan into motion with a physical and nearly unbeatable form. We can also see that the system is responsible for the JailBreak we've heard about and then it can all be explained in AntMan even further. Idk about all the Mandarin some how being tied into all of this, I can take or leave that, but a long standing Ultron system being dormant and around and working for the use of good, that then turns evil with its own agenda and now has years of files and information on both the heroes and villains on the MCU.

__________________
"1983: I was 14 years old and I still have a nanny.. that was weird!"

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
If you've got a minute, check out our up and coming clothing company. Summer wear now in stock!
( http://www.family1stclothingco.com/ )
mkilban2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 05:33 PM   #416
CoherentChaos
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 379
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

I always did wonder what the hell was running the suits that were independent of Tony and JARVIS. Iron Monger and War Machine/Patriot in particular. If an Ultron sub system was installed on those, then maybe Vanko's tampering in IM2 also led to Ultron's eventual maniacal ambition.

All in all, there needs to be tampering. I want only some of his murderous intent to be a natural product of his growing as an AI. The rest needs to be taught. Nurture, not nature. It could lead to a message that technology need not be inherently evil, but it's what humans will aspire to do with it that is evil. That in the end, the team, their hubris, and the hubris of the majority of mankind, is what led to the age of Ultron, and that it could have been avoided.


Last edited by CoherentChaos; 12-09-2013 at 05:37 PM.
CoherentChaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 05:40 PM   #417
mkilban2
family1stclothingco.com
 
mkilban2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 3,554
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Yeah I can see it as this system designed for good 10+ years ago by like Pym or Howard Stark or Zola (not good lol) or whomever. Then the system made its way to Hydra or AIM or the black market and was adapted into their schemes (Stane, Vanko, Hammer, Winter Solider, AIM/Mandarin/Killian) but shield also has a version of it that they believe they can use effectivly for good and it turns out its not the user of the system but the system itself that is what's evil in nature. And after this system has a near indestructible (vibranium) body to now use it all becomes clear that Ultron has been in charge all along.

__________________
"1983: I was 14 years old and I still have a nanny.. that was weird!"

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
If you've got a minute, check out our up and coming clothing company. Summer wear now in stock!
( http://www.family1stclothingco.com/ )
mkilban2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 06:07 PM   #418
TeeKay
Side-Kick
 
TeeKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,189
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
If Tony Makes Ultron, it becomes Literally Iron man featuring the Avegners. His problem.
Loki was the main villain in the first Thor and also in The Avengers. Was the Avengers "Thor featuring the Avengers"? Nope, just because Tony creates him doesn't necessarily mean he'ss be the focus of the film. This isn't the Wolverine scenerio in the X-Men franchise. However, I actually agree with you, Shield with be ultimately responsible for him but I don't think Ultron already exists since Whedon said this is his origin story. If not, then Tony is responsible because in this universe he's the expert in A.I's and robotics. Ant man won't have anything to do with his creation whatsoever, if you think he does, then you're going to be dissapointed. I'll take Whedon's word on this, Pym won't have anything to do with Ultron since he said, you know, they're 'crafting their own version'

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
The cons of making Tony the creator are not only that it makes him very fallible on a horrific (genocidal, if we're going to be true to the comics) level, but also that the reasoning doesn't make any sense. Tony is a man who's out of the weapons business, who despises SHIELD and the military and warmongering, and who has gone on a long, personal journey to discover that humanity is far more important than technology. Particularly on a directly personal level, where this Tin Man no longer has an artificial heart beating inside him, but a real one. So there's no conceivable reason that a man with this philosophy would ever consider it a good idea to create a killer robot for himself or for anybody else.
Did Pym know that Ultron will turn out to be a killer robot when he created him? No. Mistakes happen. Same goes for Tony here, he can make a mistake too. Hell Jarvis whom Tony created to help him around the house could become corrupted and turn against the world. Would he have known Jarvis would turn against him and the world when he first created him? Nope. I'm just using the Jarvis as an example. The idea of Zola, a character people rarely remember from the first Cap film creating Ultron or having something to do with his creation out of nowhere baffles me. I'm happy to admit I'm wrong if that ends up being the case. There's two scenerios I see here, either Tony creates him (because it makes sense) or Shield is responsible for his creation through Tony's tech, destroyer parts, chitauri tech etc imo. Remember Phase 2 in the Avengers?

It's clear enough though that from Tony picking up the screw driver in the wreckage of his mansion, looking knowingly down at his hall of armours (where it once was anyways) and then the last cheeky shot of him taking that robot arm (dummy ^_^ ) in the trailer, that he hasn't given up being Iron Man, not by a long shot. This is then confirmed when he has his final line, "I AM Iron Man". So I don't think it's about him giving up being Iron Man. I think people were taking the removal of the arc reactor and blowing up his suits too literally. I mean he but he's simply acknowledged the fact that he doesn't need the reactor to be a hero something that kept him from taking it out in iron Man 2. He's just getting rid of old baggage and finally moving on. It's the final step in him growing as a person that we've seen through all his appearances.

__________________
"I'm going to show you something beautiful, everyone screaming for mercy. You want to protect the world, but you don't want it to change. You're all puppets tangled in strings...Strings...There are no strings on me"- Ultron

GREATEST COMIC BOOK MOVIES OF ALL TIME:
1) Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2) The Dark Knight 3) Spider-Man 2 4) X-Men: Days Of Future Past 5) X-Men: First Class

Last edited by TeeKay; 12-09-2013 at 06:20 PM.
TeeKay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 06:09 PM   #419
CoherentChaos
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 379
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

I'm with you about the 10+ years ago thing, but you lost me at the system itself being evil the whole time. What I'm getting at is that Ultron may have turned out to be like JARVIS if only it had been passed down along a much more positive path. But instead it got passed along by schemers, people obsessed with revenge, and maybe even a few straight up psychopaths. Ultron learned from them, and thus thinks that it's the proper way to do things. Does it make his eventual bid for power/genocide/whatever in AoU justifiable? No, but it would explain why he came out like that.

Maybe the movie starts with Wanda and Petro getting into trouble with some AIM or Hydra sub division, and when the Avengers are called in to stop them. In the midst of the resulting chaos (with three parties at odds with each other), Tony comes across the Ultron program. He downloads it for analysis and upon discovery of its bad history and that SHIELD also has a copy, he informs the other Avengers. To make matters worse, what's left of SHIELD (after Winter Soldier) decides to kick their copy into full gear and each Avenger tries to interfere in their own way which only makes things worse and eventually Ultron breaks out and...

haha I don't really know where else to go with that to be honest, but it's just an idea I'll throw out there.

CoherentChaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 06:42 PM   #420
TeeKay
Side-Kick
 
TeeKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,189
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderLykins View Post
I think Ultron and Jarvis will have some sort of interaction in the movie. I think S.H.I.E.L.D. will have built Ultron. I think a certain scene in Captain America: The Winter Soldier could have given it away. When Nick Fury says, "We're gonna neutralize a lot of threats before they even happen." Then Steve says, "This isn't freedom, this is fear." I think they are talking about Ultron. I could be way off but I got a feeling.
You might be onto something here.

__________________
"I'm going to show you something beautiful, everyone screaming for mercy. You want to protect the world, but you don't want it to change. You're all puppets tangled in strings...Strings...There are no strings on me"- Ultron

GREATEST COMIC BOOK MOVIES OF ALL TIME:
1) Captain America: The Winter Soldier 2) The Dark Knight 3) Spider-Man 2 4) X-Men: Days Of Future Past 5) X-Men: First Class
TeeKay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 06:56 PM   #421
mkilban2
family1stclothingco.com
 
mkilban2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 3,554
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

I love that now that I've been here for dicusssions about movies years away I can go back and see how right or wrong people are in speculation. It's so fun lol. Like how no one knew what to expect in IM3 before spoilers came out. (Sam was pretty close iirc, but not to the extent of what really happened lol) it's going to be fun to see what's really going to happen in cap2 and AoU.

__________________
"1983: I was 14 years old and I still have a nanny.. that was weird!"

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
If you've got a minute, check out our up and coming clothing company. Summer wear now in stock!
( http://www.family1stclothingco.com/ )
mkilban2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 01:07 PM   #422
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 6,344
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeKay View Post
Loki was the main villain in the first Thor and also in The Avengers. Was the Avengers "Thor featuring the Avengers"? Nope, just because Tony creates him doesn't necessarily mean he'ss be the focus of the film. This isn't the Wolverine scenerio in the X-Men franchise. However, I actually agree with you, Shield with be ultimately responsible for him but I don't think Ultron already exists since Whedon said this is his origin story. If not, then Tony is responsible because in this universe he's the expert in A.I's and robotics. Ant man won't have anything to do with his creation whatsoever, if you think he does, then you're going to be dissapointed. I'll take Whedon's word on this, Pym won't have anything to do with Ultron since he said, you know, they're 'crafting their own version'

...

It's clear enough though that from Tony picking up the screw driver in the wreckage of his mansion, looking knowingly down at his hall of armours (where it once was anyways) and then the last cheeky shot of him taking that robot arm (dummy ^_^ ) in the trailer, that he hasn't given up being Iron Man, not by a long shot. This is then confirmed when he has his final line, "I AM Iron Man". So I don't think it's about him giving up being Iron Man. I think people were taking the removal of the arc reactor and blowing up his suits too literally. I mean he but he's simply acknowledged the fact that he doesn't need the reactor to be a hero something that kept him from taking it out in iron Man 2. He's just getting rid of old baggage and finally moving on. It's the final step in him growing as a person that we've seen through all his appearances.
Thank you for this bit of sanity. There is a lot of stretching going on to try and make something fit that doesn't fit. Ultron will be created in AOU and Pym will have nothing to do with it. This is established. Anything else is fanfiction. Jossed AU fanfiction for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
There's got to be more than Just Tony. It's personal to everyone. This movie isn't going to be Iron man 4.
Loki is a great example of someone becoming personal to everyone very quickly. While Tony creates AI, there's nothing to say that other teammates may not be part of his origin. Why does Ultron turn "evil?" Why does Ultron even care about having free will? Is that purely because of interactions with Tony, or perhaps with Steve instead? Certainly SHIELD will be at least partially responsible for Ultron's hardware, but will Thor contribute any materials? Will Banner contribute a power source? They can all be involved... but its just needlessly complicated to have someone other than the guy that makes AI make AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoherentChaos View Post
I always did wonder what the hell was running the suits that were independent of Tony and JARVIS.
Software, like the computer you're on now. Justin Hammer's software in the case of War Machine. Nothing special about it, it's actually described as sub par in the films. Black Widow hacks Whiplash's software in a matter of minutes. Nothing special about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderLykins View Post
I think Ultron and Jarvis will have some sort of interaction in the movie. I think S.H.I.E.L.D. will have built Ultron. I think a certain scene in Captain America: The Winter Soldier could have given it away. When Nick Fury says, "We're gonna neutralize a lot of threats before they even happen." Then Steve says, "This isn't freedom, this is fear." I think they are talking about Ultron. I could be way off but I got a feeling.
He's pointing at the huge fleet of helicarriers being built. Ultron can't be a major threat in Cap 2 because his origin begins in Avengers 2.

The problem with having Ultron not be a product of Tony is then: okay, what WILL Tony invent? He's going to be making something incredible, based on what we've seen of him so far and his new resolve to start from scratch in IM3... if not Ultron, then what?

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

Last edited by DrCosmic; 12-10-2013 at 01:59 PM.
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2013, 11:31 PM   #423
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post





The problem with having Ultron not be a product of Tony is then: okay, what WILL Tony invent? He's going to be making something incredible, based on what we've seen of him so far and his new resolve to start from scratch in IM3... if not Ultron, then what?
Extremis/Bleeding Edge Armor.
Nanotech armor that literally lives inside Tony, and materializes instantly, and is controlled by *his* mind instead of by JARVIS.

That's pretty damn incredible.
Not to mention extremely vulnerable to back-door hacks that would literally take over Tony's brain and the suit (*koff* Mighty Avengers *koff*).

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2013, 12:10 AM   #424
AlexanderLykins
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 487
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Thank you for this bit of sanity. There is a lot of stretching going on to try and make something fit that doesn't fit. Ultron will be created in AOU and Pym will have nothing to do with it. This is established. Anything else is fanfiction. Jossed AU fanfiction for that matter.



Loki is a great example of someone becoming personal to everyone very quickly. While Tony creates AI, there's nothing to say that other teammates may not be part of his origin. Why does Ultron turn "evil?" Why does Ultron even care about having free will? Is that purely because of interactions with Tony, or perhaps with Steve instead? Certainly SHIELD will be at least partially responsible for Ultron's hardware, but will Thor contribute any materials? Will Banner contribute a power source? They can all be involved... but its just needlessly complicated to have someone other than the guy that makes AI make AI.



Software, like the computer you're on now. Justin Hammer's software in the case of War Machine. Nothing special about it, it's actually described as sub par in the films. Black Widow hacks Whiplash's software in a matter of minutes. Nothing special about it.



He's pointing at the huge fleet of helicarriers being built. Ultron can't be a major threat in Cap 2 because his origin begins in Avengers 2.

The problem with having Ultron not be a product of Tony is then: okay, what WILL Tony invent? He's going to be making something incredible, based on what we've seen of him so far and his new resolve to start from scratch in IM3... if not Ultron, then what?
You don't know that he's pointing at a fleet of Helicarriers. That' a good guess but not a fact, yet. Regarding Tony creating Ultron, I agree. Tony will be the Avenger most closely connected to Ultron. In what way? I have some ideas but could be way wrong.


Last edited by AlexanderLykins; 12-11-2013 at 12:13 AM.
AlexanderLykins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2013, 01:32 AM   #425
DrCosmic
Professor of Power
 
DrCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
Posts: 6,344
Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Extremis/Bleeding Edge Armor.
Nanotech armor that literally lives inside Tony, and materializes instantly, and is controlled by *his* mind instead of by JARVIS.

That's pretty damn incredible.
Not to mention extremely vulnerable to back-door hacks that would literally take over Tony's brain and the suit (*koff* Mighty Avengers *koff*).
Possibly. But they'd be pretty poor filmmakers if they didn't think to hint that in the IM3, where they actually used Extremis-in-name only, but instead hinted a bunch about him relying on AI that tries to kill his loved ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderLykins View Post
You don't know that he's pointing at a fleet of Helicarriers. That' a good guess but not a fact, yet. Regarding Tony creating Ultron, I agree. Tony will be the Avenger most closely connected to Ultron. In what way? I have some ideas but could be way wrong.
I can't think of anything else it makes sense to have in a room full of helicarriers. Perhaps that's where they keep Sentry on ice or something?

__________________
WW TV Show Ideas - X-Men TV Show Ideas -
With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."
DrCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.