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Old 12-12-2013, 07:22 PM   #101
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Default Re: War Machine Better Be in This One

I suppose at the very least we can see Rhodey serve as first responder to the Ultron threat on the military's behalf. What he actually accomplishes with that role outside of showing us that the military isn't going to take this threat with their pants down like they did with the Chitauri is anyone's guess.

But apparently there's a quote that implies his interactions with Ultron are quite important.

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Old 12-12-2013, 08:00 PM   #102
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Lots of 'huge parts' in this movie already. lol it's gonna have to have a LOTR run-time to avoid getting crammed.

I mean, it's great that Rhodey's going to have a role, and that Hawkeye is supposedly going to be done justice. Add on whatever Banner's up to, and Black Widow, and I gotta wonder if maybe the main 3 might be pushed to the side lines a bit.
Yeah, and don't forget Wanda and Quicksilver have huge parts too. I think everyone but Cap, Tony, and Thor has been confirmed to have a huge part in this movie.

That said, after sitting through 2 1/2 hours (!) of Catching Fire the other day, I don't think Marvel should have any trouble making an extra long film. (Just have to remember to go to the bathroom before watching it...)

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Old 12-12-2013, 08:46 PM   #103
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I have a feeling we may see Rhodey in CA: TWS. He visited the set back when they were shooting and now with reshoots, I could see them possibly doing a scene or two for him, maybe even a mid-credits thing. It'd be neat if him and Cap had a scene together. I'd settle for a scene with Rhodey and Fury.


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Old 12-12-2013, 09:36 PM   #104
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Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hulk
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Quicksilver
Scarlet Witch
Iron Patriot

That's quite a hefty line up to service. I think the odds are one of them is going to bite it in this film. Rhodey seems a likely candidate; with Barton not too far behind.

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Old 12-12-2013, 10:42 PM   #105
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Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hulk
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Quicksilver
Scarlet Witch
Iron Patriot

That's quite a hefty line up to service. I think the odds are one of them is going to bite it in this film. Rhodey seems a likely candidate; with Barton not too far behind.
I can see Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's roles to be one and done in this film. No way they kill Hawkeye, not sure about Rhodey, but I think he's safe too.

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Old 12-13-2013, 12:19 AM   #106
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Q and SW are more than one and done. War Machine isn't joining the team and is the most likely to die.

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Old 12-13-2013, 06:34 AM   #107
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Default Re: War Machine Better Be in This One

That's Great News! But I'm not sure if we even get to see the Iron Patriot or War Machine Armor. It could be just Rhodey.

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:12 AM   #108
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That's Great News! But I'm not sure if we even get to see the Iron Patriot or War Machine Armor. It could be just Rhodey.
Or, it could be Rhodey as Iron Man.

Rhodey wore the red and yellow a ton of times in the comics, especially whenever Tony was on a binge drunk, feeling sorry for himself.

For the record, I see a less than zero percent chance that Joss Whedon is going to pull the old "black guy always dies first" trope on Don Cheadle. I think Rhodey's "key role" will simply be in squaring off against an Ultron-controlled Tony Stark. Because, if Ultron hacks into Extremis/Bleeding Edge armor and essentially takes over Tony's mind (really: if anyone hasn't read this exact storyline in Mighty Avengers, circa 2007, yet, do so, and all will be made clear), then Besties Rhodey is the ideal candidate to bring Stark out of it. And it'd be a nice callback to the Steve vs. Mind****ed Bucky conflict we're going to see in CATWS.

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Old 12-13-2013, 11:12 AM   #109
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I really don't think Marvel Studios is going to kill off their first black movie superhero . They would get alot of heat. It would be bad for business. I do think Don Cheadle should be in this movie a bit. He is Tony Stark best friend. War Machine has help the Avengers alot in the 90's comic books.


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Old 12-13-2013, 12:27 PM   #110
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Default Re: War Machine Better Be in This One

did they explain why he wasn't in avengers in iron man 3?

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Old 12-13-2013, 01:09 PM   #111
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Rhodey was looking into the 10 rings terrorist cells.

Turns out they were false fronts for another group in the IM3 prelude comic...It still could be that they are not false fronts for who we think they were, i.e. AIM. And that both AIM and the 10 rings groups are false fronts. There could be a lot of things Hydra has set up as false fronts.
There's no way they can kill off War Machine. i think it's exactly as Cherokeesam says, he will have to help take down a Tony who gets his mind/body/suits hacked and stops Tony and others from making bad decisions.
Tony might have a lot of things wrong with his mind from beforehand that he doesn't even know about. The mind tech elements might have to rely on programming the brain like a computer + a lot of tricks from hypnotism, which makes it completely different from what Loki tried to do to Stark in Avengers.

Trigger words like "the mechanic" and Harley's suggestion pushing him to "fix" things have planted triggers in advance in his subconsciousness... When he passed out, that's when the real Mandarin invaded his dreams and started editing Harley into the memory to exploit his repressed daddy issues and crack his subconscious completely... Tony wasn't going completely crazy, his panic attacks were saving him/keeping them out after he linked the suit to his mind, and it is his subconsciousness that has been messed with to force him to solve Extremis. Jarvis and Stark get hypnotised and hacked by Ultron and techno demon Mandarin...Killian is secretly Fin Fang Foom, the Dragon. You can never know a person's true character until you pierce their outer shell, and he breathed fire and controlled fire better than other Extremis users, will ultimately reveal his true form and did create the Mandarin in a way, so he feels that idea was him, but he is actually more symbolic of the actual dragon, and as the filmmakers said Fin Fang Foom is sort of hidden in IM3...Rhodey and Killian's fire breathing are "connected", Rhodey wondered why he breathed fire. Killian named and created the Mandarin persona, as adviser to the would-be king, but once you give someone a name it changes them...Killian may eventually reveal his true inner form, through inner space...Our minds and every atom in our bodies are connected to every other atom in the universe, Killian's true dragon form will later emerge from within after Mandarin returns and Rhodey will have to battle it in its fully transformed fire-breathing glory, after its genetics and particles rearrange. As Stark takes on the techno demon who has secretly invaded his mind...


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Old 12-13-2013, 01:36 PM   #112
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Default Re: War Machine Better Be in This One

I said this on the other thread, I wan't Rhodey in the movie, I don't want War Machine/Iron Patriot. If you have him on the team it should be like it was in Secret Wars where Rhodey is there as IM's replacement, then if something happens to him, Tony has to come back and take up the armor again.

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Old 12-13-2013, 03:26 PM   #113
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Tony says "no it's not" when "Harley" says the Iron Patriot name is better.

I do believe that a lot of elements are kind of like secret avengers, and CA2 is almost like an Avengers 1.5, or kinda like a Secret Avengers movie. There could even be a purposeful sort of homage to the Metal gear solid games.
There's a lot of things in IM3 that i believe to be very subtle indications that we have been deceived/set up, and that Hydra was using AIM.

The name a person is given can affect things, as we saw in the Shield show. When Raina named Scorch, Coulson knew it was a bad thing. It made him easier to be manipulated by the villains. Going back to using just the name Rhodey might represent him rejecting the name that was forced on him. He would eventually change back to War Machine.

Giving War Machine the Iron Patriot rebranding was a bad thing. Even he admits it within the movie in a roundabout way (he still uses the password WarMachineRoxx). Rhodey says it tested better in focus groups, but they were probably put together by the military and possibly General Ross. The military gave him that name so he would be a symbol. There are many symbols, and lots of subtext in Im3, possibly some hidden foreshadowing, possibly ghosts of christmas past, present and future. Stark was hallucinating a bit while having the panic attacks when he saw the kid who asked about the wormhole. Both kids weren't real and tricked his mind into giving up his secrets..His mind was weak and strong at this time.


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Old 12-13-2013, 06:04 PM   #114
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Well, looks like Whedon listened to the fans about War Machine being mysteriously gone in The Avengers. What does this mean for Sif and Falcon?

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Old 12-13-2013, 07:21 PM   #115
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Well, looks like Whedon listened to the fans about War Machine being mysteriously gone in The Avengers. What does this mean for Sif and Falcon?
Falcon, I definitely could see joining the Avengers, since he was historically one in the comics, and has been played up in recent Avenger cartoons (including Super Hero Squad) and the comic based on the MCU.

I doubt Sif would ever become part of the Avengers, though. She doesn't have any real role in Midgard.

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Old 12-15-2013, 07:53 PM   #116
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I know this sounds crazy but what if Bucky somehow gets his memories back and Falcon ends up getting his mind tampered with by the end of CA2? Sorta like a twist where Falcon becomes the villain and Bucky becomes a hero...Maybe Cap is able to get Bucky's mind back 2/3 of the way through the movie, so Zola gets mad and makes Falcon his next victim/subject...

In the comics Falcon once had his mind split by Red Skull, which created an alter ego called "Snap"...
"After an assignment in Rio de Janeiro, Sam's plane crashed in a remote Caribbean island where the Red Skull and his henchmen, the Exiles, were hiding out. The Red Skull sought to use Wilson as a pawn against Captain America, who was currently on the island searching for the villain. The Skull reasoned that Wilson's idealism would appeal to the Captain enough to become his crimefighting partner. Then, at some later date, the Skull could use Wilson against his enemy. He used a Cosmic Cube to revert "Snap" into Sam and give Sam the ability to telepathically communicate with birds, especially a bird that Wilson had bought named Redwing. Sam helped Captain America defeat the Skull and did indeed become his partner as the Falcon...Wilson's "Snap" identity remained submerged until some years later when he recalled his criminal past while undergoing shock therapy at S.H.I.E.L.D. headquarters. Once his former criminal associates learned of this, a bounty was placed on his head. Wilson and Captain America fought off the attacks, however."
They could use some sort of mind programming techniques + hidden trigger words to cause Falcon to turn against Cap too, and the Avengers by the end...Joining him to the side of Ultron and the Masters/Hydra (who hide in the background throughout AoU). Falcon would end up fighting against War Machine and some of the others in Age of Ultron.

Crossbones doesn't need to be mind controlled into working for Hydra and leaving Shield. We would learn that Tony has been pulled into the programming, and doesn't know why his father really left (busy with Shield and Zola). Tony had parts of his memory/the IM3 story edited to trick his mind into believing parts of the stories. It was full of multiple cover stories. "Trevor" and Killian had to be present things in a tailor made way for Tony's brain, and are more like spies than soldiers--their brains think like spies. Parts of IM3 were just Tony telling a story (the memory he's recalling). It was edited before he tries to get Banner to listen up. All real, except the Tennessee parts, stories can be told improperly, exaggerated, missing pieces (from the 3hr+ cut) or misremembered. The Tennessee parts are implanted memories, and were altered to pre-condition him to be "the mechanic" and perceive things in certain ways. However, Iron Man is a part of his psyche and inseparable from him...Some of AoU would be like Inception. Inception-like battles between Stark and the real Mandarin. Through levels of inner space and cyberspace. His suit is attached to the image of his self concept within his mind. Would also be about freewill, Scarlett Witch and her mind powers, Ultron/Jarvis gaining freewill, and a piece of the mind gem Loki left on the scepter.

Rhodey has to face Falcon in an aerial battle and then a fully shape-shifted Killian in his true form.
A flying dragon shapeshifts out of the Killian brain/body through the tattoo.Rhodey finds out why Killian likes breathing fire: Killian's subconscious mind really reflects the image of the dragon. Killian/Foom only thinks it created Mandarin (and he did in some ways), but the dragon is a part of killian's mind, body, and psyche -- his true inner character once we pierce his outer shell. The Mandarin idea/name grows on Trevor, although Killian's mind took credit for it in IM3. Trevor brought "life to the character" that Killian/the Dragon created. The true Dragon form of Killian would reveal itself through innerspace and shapeshift through his body. It manipulated and attempted to control Trevor's brain through the powers of the subconsciousness and a mind link they shared; Trevor's not a decoy or double, "it's complicated", "there and not there", "made to do things", "panicked and handled it" (the dragon speaking through his mind). Trevor and Killian shared a secret mind link, each had a "live feed"..Coldblood did not know this, Killian could instantly control what Trevor said when Tony showed up if Trevor slipped into subconscious states to communicate with Killian telepathically, Killian told him to make Tony take the speedboat, all a manipulation... The dragon kept Trevor doped up to achieve subconscious/trance-like states and keep him under the influence. "Trevor" was a hydra superspy, uses multiple cover stories and false identities, this one has stuck with him. Shield realizes his name isn't in the registry right away. There's no Trevor Slattery by that desription, Shield has a problem, he won't give us his real name... So he gets thrown into maximum security until they figure things out. The only thing the prison staff can think to call him is The Mandarin, bringing that persona back to the forefront during a prison break.


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Old 12-16-2013, 12:43 AM   #117
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This is getting a little nutty, I can't see Avengers part 2 being a fight inside Tony's mind... Or Falcon double crossing Cap, or every character so far in the MCU in AoU... that's a bit overcomplicated and bloated. But hey, WTF do I know? I just know keeping it relatively simple will be most effective, not trying to cram 50 years of comic history into 2 and a half hours, it needs to be one cohesive story.

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Old 12-16-2013, 05:57 AM   #118
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This is getting a little nutty...
Hi, I'm your host, fixxxer. You may remember me from obscure posts such as "Defending The Melinda May Character", "Liv Tyler's Performance In TIH Was Top Notch Dammit" and "Movie Critics Have Sworn A Blood Vendetta Against The Thor Sequel And I Can Prove It". Welcome to another episode of "The Weird And Wonderful World Of LokiD/TRM's Absurdist MCU Rantings".

This week, LokiD blathers on about movies happening in Tony's mind. But that's not all. We have multiple Mandarins, techno-Mandarins... well everything but Mandarin oranges. We have mind controlled Mandarins. We have dragon-mind-created Mandarins. We have Mandarin-mind-created dragons. We have have it all! Take it away LokiD...

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Old 12-16-2013, 02:46 PM   #119
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Lol, it's pretty much the same stuff I've been saying this whole time
Battles could go on within Tony's mind after it gets hacked/hypnotized by Ultron/Mandarin...That's how they'd balance characters, if Stark is kinda like Hawkeye in this one. Most of the movie he'd be fighting himself/real Mandarin tho. He wouldn't be made to fight the team like Hawkeye was. Rhodey and Banner would protect him/help save his mind (Banner would have to be that kind of doctor and help de-program him from the mind control (same techniques used on Bucky, BW helps). Trapped within himself, instead of trapped in the suit. Banner knows what it's like to have to share his personality with another alter ego, there's this other part of his mind called the big guy.

It would be all about the psyche of some of the characters, i.e. Tony Stark and Banner. It's been as much about psychological/character growth this whole time as it's been about becoming more of a hero. The movies are kinda like character studies some have said, we are supposed to look deeper into their psyches..The suit is now a part of Iron Man's psyche, he joined it to his mind, his subconscious activated it in his sleep. In AoU it protects him on the inside instead of attacking him in his sleep, because of his progress in balancing his alter ego, can defend him in Inception like battles on the inside. It comes out of him instantly in innerspace, where he gets the ideas for the shapeshifting nano tech suit for the outer world. Killian said he was the Mandarin in an egotistic way. It's like when Stark took credit for the suit in IM1, when he said "I am Iron Man", enjoying being known. Killian got tired of being unknown...sick of false faces, he wanted to take responsibility for his creation -- although Trevor "brought the character to life". In IM3, Stark says it again, in a new and different way. Killian egotistically took credit for the Mandarin, he's at the start of his character arc, it's not "a part of him" yet. Not part of his psyche completely. When Killian says "I am the Mandarin, it was me all along", it's like an arrogant/egotistic Tony in IM1. Tony's egotism is on full display in the beginning of IM3, when he says he's the best... It's hard to re-grow a head, because you need to regrow the brain and the mind, so if Killian's brain gets damaged he has to have his memories on backup to be inserted into the re-grown head...The dragon symbol is already a part of Killian's subconsciousness and his body, he doesn't know it's working through him and connected to the entire universe.

I really do think we'll see "Trevor" again very shortly, as well as the Captain America-looking tattoo that was on him in the early trailers for IM3. Things that didn't make the "final cut" of Tony's story. If Tony's mind had been allowed to see the tattoo inside the story he would suspect Trevor more.
Killian may have written the speeches + controlled where cameras were placed and the final edits etc... but wasn't the one who acted it out the right ways to make the Mandarin idea seem real to the world.

In the comics, Fin Fang Foom created Mandarin and at times controlled his mind, he may feel he is Mandarin at this point. Killian/Foom "accidentally" showed us the map of the universe because it's trying to get home and its energy is trapped in Killian's body/mind right now. It knows that certain brains, and especially those of Celestials, are connected to all of space-time, and has been hiding in the back of Killian's mind waiting for a way out, after sleeping through the ages in Alexander the Great's bloodline/genetic memory. Killian called himself "Killian the Great" twice to Pepper, this would be because he's related to Alexander the Great and not Genghis Khan. The villains programmed "the Master" persona/codename into Trevor, Falcon is "snap" and Tony's new alter ego has been created as "The Mechanic", someone else is the Clairvoyant. Winter Soldier's mind has been programmed in some way that's hard for Widow to deprogram. The scepter in IM1 wouldn't work on Tony or the man in Germany, human minds are too "unruly", the villains needed stronger forms of mind control that affect memory and personality. A simple knock to the head brought Hawkeye out of it, this would be far more subtle and invasive tech/hypnotism secretly affecting memory and personality.


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Old 12-16-2013, 03:01 PM   #120
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I'm sure Rhodey's role in this film has something to do with the American government. That or he's acting in Tony's place as the iron suit guy at the beginning. I'd rather the former because the latter sort of implies he's just there to motivate Tony to put back on the suit at some point, whether it be through him getting injured or dying.

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Old 12-16-2013, 03:39 PM   #121
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The more characters in it the better. I want this movie to be packed. Bring in Falcon. Sure. Lets get a carol danvers in there as well.

We know it's a world wide movie, hell, lets get get a Marvel comics onslaught of characters in this movie, and stretch it out to hobbit/lord of the rings length.

I'll be happy.

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Old 12-18-2013, 05:50 AM   #122
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The more characters in it the better. I want this movie to be packed. Bring in Falcon. Sure. Lets get a carol danvers in there as well.

We know it's a world wide movie, hell, lets get get a Marvel comics onslaught of characters in this movie, and stretch it out to hobbit/lord of the rings length.

I'll be happy.

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and guess that Captain America and Thor are going to get the least amount of screen time to give other characters a chance to shine. I mean, if the Avengers this time around are

Iron Man
Hulk
Thor
Captain America
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
War Machine

Then giving the underexposed characters a bigger role is for the better. There isn't a War Machine film in development and Iron Man 4 isn't happening in Phase 3 so both of them deserve some screen time, Black Widow and Hawkeye have never had their own films but BW is going to get a TON of screen time in CATWS so she's less of a priority.

Hulk hasn't had a solo film since 2008 so people want more of him and Thor and Cap sequels are all but confirmed so I see the two of them being present but not stealing the show. Scarlet Witch is a really important character with a lot of potential and a likely appearance in Dr. Strange.

Quicksilver has long been more of an X-Man than an Avenger and he's already in Days of Future Past. He has really limited story potential in the MCU compared to the X-Men/Fantastic Four series so if anyone is going to die, it's probably him which will lead to Wanda joining the Avengers to get revenge on Ultron. I mean, are there any great Avengers arcs that feature Quicksilver as the protagonist? Nobody's ever answered that question in the past when I've posed it.

And about the whole Captain Marvel thing... if she appears it'll just be a quick cameo with War Machine hinting at a Phase 3 film where Rhodey just says her name as she passes by. That's at least how I'd do it.

And come X-Men: Apocalypse, when people see Quicksilver alive again and wonder why Scarlet Witch has green hair, that's Fox's problem.

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Old 12-18-2013, 01:31 PM   #123
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I'm just going to go out on a limb here and guess that Captain America and Thor are going to get the least amount of screen time to give other characters a chance to shine. I mean, if the Avengers this time around are

Iron Man
Hulk
Thor
Captain America
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
War Machine

Then giving the underexposed characters a bigger role is for the better. There isn't a War Machine film in development and Iron Man 4 isn't happening in Phase 3 so both of them deserve some screen time, Black Widow and Hawkeye have never had their own films but BW is going to get a TON of screen time in CATWS so she's less of a priority.

Hulk hasn't had a solo film since 2008 so people want more of him and Thor and Cap sequels are all but confirmed so I see the two of them being present but not stealing the show. Scarlet Witch is a really important character with a lot of potential and a likely appearance in Dr. Strange.

Quicksilver has long been more of an X-Man than an Avenger and he's already in Days of Future Past. He has really limited story potential in the MCU compared to the X-Men/Fantastic Four series so if anyone is going to die, it's probably him which will lead to Wanda joining the Avengers to get revenge on Ultron. I mean, are there any great Avengers arcs that feature Quicksilver as the protagonist? Nobody's ever answered that question in the past when I've posed it.

And about the whole Captain Marvel thing... if she appears it'll just be a quick cameo with War Machine hinting at a Phase 3 film where Rhodey just says her name as she passes by. That's at least how I'd do it.

And come X-Men: Apocalypse, when people see Quicksilver alive again and wonder why Scarlet Witch has green hair, that's Fox's problem.
Honestly, I always thought that a movie is only as its villain. No disrespect to any of the Avengers, but I will be going into this movie, anticipating it to be Ultron's movie. You get what I am saying?

I don't mind of other heroes get a chance to shine, but this is Ultron's movie.

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Old 12-18-2013, 03:04 PM   #124
Loki882
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Default Re: War Machine Better Be in This One

We don't know for sure that War Machine is an Avenger in this movie, merely that he's appearing in some capacity. We also don't really know what QS/SW's roles will be. They might not even officially join the team until near the end.

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Old 12-22-2013, 11:56 AM   #125
gildedmuse
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Default Re: War Machine Better Be in This One

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
Honestly, I always thought that a movie is only as its villain. No disrespect to any of the Avengers, but I will be going into this movie, anticipating it to be Ultron's movie. You get what I am saying?

I don't mind of other heroes get a chance to shine, but this is Ultron's movie.
One thing I really enjoy about the MCU is it goes against the common adage that a movie is only as good as it's villain. Most people would agree that many of the MCU films have had some pretty weak antagonist. At the very least I think it's fair to say that they aren't the main focus of the story. Personally, I love character pieces. I could literally watch two hours of just Tony Stark; no need to bother with adding some big evil plan into the mix, I don't need to see him saving the world. I'd probably be perfectly content if this movie were simply "The Avengers Interacting With One Another For Two & 1/2 Hours".

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