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Old 12-17-2013, 07:59 AM   #826
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Behind all the Gothic cacophony that Tim Burton brings, there is quite a tender story about being an outsider. I think that emerges on repeat viewings.

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Old 12-17-2013, 08:28 AM   #827
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Behind all the Gothic cacophony that Tim Burton brings, there is quite a tender story about being an outsider. I think that emerges on repeat viewings.
Yes! The Penguin and Catwoman and of course Batman are all basically nutso and they are all also outsiders.

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The reason why some fans come down on Batman 89 so hard since the Nolan films have been released is 2 fold: the Nolan films are newer and fans of the actual books don't read the 70's and 80's source material that the 89 film was based upon to understand how much more pure the 89 film is compared to the modern crime-drama trilogy that Nolan created.
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Old 12-17-2013, 11:52 AM   #828
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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I rewatched it again yesterday because it's Christmas time and it fits and damn it is very dated. While Batman 89 holds up mainly for nostalgia, for some good character moments and the goth-stylish noir atmosphere, Batman Returns is a claustrophobic mess.

If it the characters had different names , not related to Batman it would have been a good freakshow-Tim Burton movie perfect for Christmas and Halloween but as Batman Mythos characters, dammit, everyone is wrong, except maybe Batman. Keaton does a great job but he isn't given a good role, Batman is just there, Burton is not interested in him because he has 2 more weird characters to occupy screen time with.

Pfeiffer's Catwoman is hot and iconic and all but it is overacting at it's finest. It is enjoyable and by far the best part of the film along with her awesome costume and Danny Elfman's brilliant music.

I didn't remember it to be this bad and maybe it will grow on me, i do plan in seeing it a couple more times to fully digest everything because it had been a while since i saw it. I didn't find it entertaining, which really bothered me, even Batman Forever managed to entertain me for what it was.
I absolutely love the atmosphere this movie has, especially during a time like Christmas. But im glad you said all of those things, because they're true. Pfeiffer over-acting? Thank you! And yes it's as if all these characters should have had different names.

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Old 12-17-2013, 12:22 PM   #829
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Pfeiffer over-acting as Catwoman? I think if anything she was having a very fun time with the role, but I don't see that as over-acting, now in terms of over-acting I think of Jim Carrey's Riddler performance as a great example.

But of course to each their own, personally as big of a fan of Breaking Bad as I am Shauner there were many instances where I felt Cranston was over-acting as well, but it never ruined the show for me.

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Old 12-17-2013, 12:31 PM   #830
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Pfeiffer and Ledger were the only two actors that BLEW me away with their performances as Bat-villians and still do on repeat viewings.

If thats over-acting then I hope up and coming Bat-actors ham it up to high heaven.

Hardy's Bane was also very effective for what he was given.

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Old 12-17-2013, 03:43 PM   #831
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

I actually thought Hardy's Bane was the best performance (after Bale in Begins) of the Nolan films.

Ledger to me was great, but not awe-inspiring as some believe. Just my opinion, but his Brokeback performance impressed me more than his Joker. I loved him in the role as Joker, but I still liked Jack better.

As for Pfeiffer, she ranks up there with Jack as far as best Batman villains, IMO and will probably never be beaten as Catwoman!

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The reason why some fans come down on Batman 89 so hard since the Nolan films have been released is 2 fold: the Nolan films are newer and fans of the actual books don't read the 70's and 80's source material that the 89 film was based upon to understand how much more pure the 89 film is compared to the modern crime-drama trilogy that Nolan created.
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Old 12-17-2013, 03:48 PM   #832
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Yes I do agree and while I did really love Hathaways Catwoman quite a bit Michelle's version will always be the definitive performance of the character for me.

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Old 12-17-2013, 06:12 PM   #833
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Pfeiffer and Ledger were the only two actors that BLEW me away with their performances as Bat-villians and still do on repeat viewings.
For me, my favorite will be Pfeiffer and Hathaway. Kinda strange, cause I'm not that big of a Catwoman fan.

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Old 12-17-2013, 06:43 PM   #834
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

I am sorry i just don't see it. I think you are blinded by nostalgia because the performance isn't that good. She is a good looking woman with a seductive whispering voice and that's all she does in the film. She is not the Catwoman i know from the comics.

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Old 12-17-2013, 06:48 PM   #835
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Oh well... maybe with the next on-screen Catwoman, you'll get a more comic-accurate one.

For me, I couldn't care less about the comics so Pfeiffer is definitive to me and close enough to the characters general traits.

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Old 12-17-2013, 07:17 PM   #836
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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I am sorry i just don't see it. I think you are blinded by nostalgia because the performance isn't that good. She is a good looking woman with a seductive whispering voice and that's all she does in the film.
It was a solid performance by a great actress, period. Almost unique in it's interpretation and nearly flawlessly executed. What other comic book heroines (or villains) in general have portrayed such a beloved character onscreen with so much intensity?

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She is not the Catwoman i know from the comics.
Neither is Nolan's Catwoman, or half the characters in his trilogy for that matter.

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Old 12-17-2013, 07:38 PM   #837
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Yeah but i can take those characters seriously. I could se Selina Kyle-seductive jewel thief in Hathaway's Catwoman. I could see the League of Assasins in BB and Bane was awesome and better than the comics in many ways. If you are going base your version on something and then improve upon it i am good but Batman Returns was a freakshow and unfortunatelly, for me, not a very enjoyable one.

I agree she was awesome but not for the reasons i want.

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Old 12-17-2013, 08:35 PM   #838
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Watching the Blu-ray right now. This movie really looks amazing. Most of the stuff from the 80's and early 90's looks pretty average on Blu-ray, but the cinematography/production design of this film has held up well over time.


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Old 12-17-2013, 08:57 PM   #839
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

I feel like putting in my blu-ray in now too!

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Old 12-17-2013, 09:56 PM   #840
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Watching the Blu-ray right now. This movie really looks amazing. Most of the stuff from the 80's and early 90's looks pretty average on Blu-ray, but the cinematography/production design of this film has held up well over time.
The BR blu-ray looks amazing, much better than the 89 transfer (which is still good) because of obviously higher production values and the time it was made, it's next on my Christmas marathon list and one of my favorite movies of all time.

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Old 12-17-2013, 10:00 PM   #841
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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While Batman 89 holds up mainly for nostalgia,
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I am sorry i just don't see it. I think you are blinded by nostalgia because the performance isn't that good.

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Old 12-17-2013, 10:02 PM   #842
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

I said holds, there is big gap between holding up and being good.


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Old 12-17-2013, 10:28 PM   #843
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Neither is Nolan's Catwoman, or half the characters in his trilogy for that matter.
I disagree. Nolan's was the only version that was actually Selina Kyle in character. Pfeiffer's felt like only 'Selina Kyle' in name.

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Oh well... maybe with the next on-screen Catwoman, you'll get a more comic-accurate one.

For me, I couldn't care less about the comics so Pfeiffer is definitive to me and close enough to the characters general traits.
I have yet to see those traits you speak of. When she's in the suit? Absolutely. Out of it? Who is that woman?

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Pfeiffer over-acting as Catwoman? I think if anything she was having a very fun time with the role, but I don't see that as over-acting, now in terms of over-acting I think of Jim Carrey's Riddler performance as a great example.

But of course to each their own, personally as big of a fan of Breaking Bad as I am Shauner there were many instances where I felt Cranston was over-acting as well, but it never ruined the show for me.
Carrey? You're exactly right. Cranston? No.

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Originally Posted by NosfeRomas View Post
I am sorry i just don't see it. I think you are blinded by nostalgia because the performance isn't that good. She is a good looking woman with a seductive whispering voice and that's all she does in the film. She is not the Catwoman i know from the comics.
I do think it's a good performance. But not better than Anne's. People seem to think that giving a charismatic/intense performance automatically makes it better than the one that's quieter. Selina is a grey area character, with a lot of soul underneath, and is a jewel thief first and foremost. Pfeiffer's had none of that. She was cold to the core once she "transforms" and debuts her suit. From that point on when she's just "Selina" she's just cold and crazy. A nutjob who should be in Arkham. But Catwoman is not nuts. Her and Penguin are the rogues that don't belong in an institution. Yet they're both displayed as fantastical and out of their minds. Just as much as any version of the Joker.

She's also a pure villain once she falls out that window. Did she steal a single thing in the movie? Who is she?


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Old 12-17-2013, 11:12 PM   #844
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Yeah but i can take those characters seriously. I could se Selina Kyle-seductive jewel thief in Hathaway's Catwoman. I could see the League of Assasins in BB and Bane was awesome and better than the comics in many ways. If you are going base your version on something and then improve upon it i am good but Batman Returns was a freakshow and unfortunatelly, for me, not a very enjoyable one.

I agree she was awesome but not for the reasons i want.
Okay... so the movie didn't appeal to your sense of the characters. That's not an excuse to slag someone else and their opinion by saying the only reason they feel that way about Pfeiffer is based only on "nostalgia"... Matter of fact, for some, her interpretation of Catwoman really set the bar, and it hasn't been rivaled (onscreen) if you ask me.

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Old 12-17-2013, 11:21 PM   #845
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

For a loud performance of the character, Catwoman, Michelle raised the bar. And is the best performance in that style. But i dont think loud = better, hence why i side with Anne's portrayal. Plus ill take just a subtle performance over an insanely charismatic one any day if it means that the subtle one played the character as i know her from the comics. I love Selina outside of just movies. So i side with Anne. I also truly don't think that Hathaway wasn't charismatic, because she was.

But my favorite versions of Catwoman have yet to be seen. Some comics since the 90s feature it, as well as Arkham City. Michelle got the closest in look (suit). But Anne is the closest in character as Michelle doesn't even enter the equation for that.

You could have called Pfeiffer's Cat.."Lisa Washington" and it would have made more sense for that role than Selina Kyle.


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Old 12-17-2013, 11:38 PM   #846
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Danny DeVito's Penguin is also a great performance. It's completely over-the-top but he goes for it so completely that the character becomes fully formed in the movie. You don't see DeVito in the movie, partly because of the great makeup but also the performance.

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Old 12-18-2013, 03:53 AM   #847
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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I agree she was awesome but not for the reasons i want.
As I have said in the past, I distinguish performance from script. BR's Catwoman shares a concept with the comic book original, but few story details. The performance, however, captures the essence brilliantly. I would compare it to Burgess Meredith's Penguin: written to be absurd, the voice and mannerisms have become seminal.

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Old 12-18-2013, 07:06 AM   #848
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

I've watched Terminator 2 some days ago. Still awesome. And the special effects don't look worse than, let's say, Spider-Man and fit the movie very well. Which proves to me that it's not all nostalgia. Of course, James Cameron is a much better director than Burton.

I guess Batman & Robin and Forever are still feeling pretty modern (despite not being that good and had never been deified) while the Burton Batman's aged very badly in all regards.

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Old 12-18-2013, 07:13 AM   #849
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Nope.

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Old 12-18-2013, 09:24 AM   #850
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

They look great but they've aged a lot.

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